Gamergate, No "Right Side." - We Should Avoid Picking Sides
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You know that
here veryon
Ironically you've given me better insight into the anti-GG perspective too and i have to thank you again for that I've been trying to get that directly and nothing they said made sense in context, your perspective helped socket that home.
here veryon
I have to say you've put that very well, that is the best reason I've heard to date to take the sidelines (I've seen soem pretty nasty attacks on the neutral parties from both sides, reminds me of a man for all seasons).maffgibson said:
Ironically you've given me better insight into the anti-GG perspective too and i have to thank you again for that I've been trying to get that directly and nothing they said made sense in context, your perspective helped socket that home.
Honestly, thank you, that is really good to hear! Yeah, well when I first became aware of GamerGate I definitely leaned more towards the "anti" camp for various reasons. However, from reading stuff from GGers in these forums I could see just how pure many people's intentions are for GamerGate vis-a-vis integrity, rather than the whole "misogyny" angle. I guess that is the thing about the Escapist, it is a pretty decent place to hear relatively* calm voices of different perspectives.cleric of the order said:
*relative to twitter, tumblr, facebook... Okay, basically anywhere.
I did read Alexander's article.Zachary Amaranth said:
After Gamergaters complained about it so much, so well done, got her one more click. I never would have paid her any mind without them.
I read it since it was described to me as her 'saying all gamers need to be killed' and 'gamers have no right to exist'. Spoilers, it was not that.
Yeah, I'm pulling pretty bad parody. But thats how little it takes right now. Perhaps I should say anyone following this scandal can see it as such.maffgibson said:
While there are multiple views, as there are inviduals, they can be narrowed down to these three when inviduals become masses. And the three sides are picking and choosing any viewpoints slightly sidestepping from theirs into their own masses. Personal opinions from inviduals won't matter in the big picture. Statements such as "Anyone I decide is a "feminazi" should be censored and lose their job" would be condemned by the majority, sometimes. If they don't follow the majorities rule, they translate to white noice.maffgibson said:
From my perspective, these groups or movements are close to "anonymous" manifestos. Kinds of Occupy, Egyptian Spring, Chanology and Bronies. The manifesto of these groups is what defines their message, not inviduals opinions.
To the pleasent and not so pleasent viewpoints. I didn't mean those as strawmens. Different groups are waiting to, if not already, hijack one of the other two narratives. It will be easy to push these narratives further, as all the wetwork has already been done to support them. While I don't think any of the three narratives will vanish completely, if the other two narratives gain enough ground, you will start to see group effort from different sides of gaming communities start to enforce these narratives.
The war mentality was a trap. Declaring "war" on your customers is foolish and will only hurt you. I don't mind GG from continuing to use the war mentality, as long as the journalists are pulled into it too. Not choosing only removes you from the board. Not that I blame you for doing so. Gaming journalism became this extremely right leaning because we removed ourselves from the board by staying out of the agenda pushing narratives.maffgibson said:
It's been great, these conversations have had me evaluate my position and stance. It's put things in prescriptive, I personally would like to talk to the people that feel gaming isn't that inclusive, perhaps make a steam group for the people who want to get in or something like that going so these people feel less intimidated.maffgibson said:
But when representing the view of "anti-GG" and the media, you represented them both by their extremes. As you say, the extremist minority "fight feminazis" view is not representative due to the majority having a different opinion. Meanwhile you let your idea of what the "majority rule" in the non-GG groups be defined by the extremist minorities "Gamers are scum" and "SJ world dominance" respectively. I am afraid to say that this is not consistent. Sure, their "manifesto" is the average opinion or consensus. But your view of what that is for non-GamerGaters is heavily coloured by incorrect ideas about what the "average majority" is like.Popido said:
Exactly. You respond to me saying "it is incorrect to construe this as a war" by saying "but the games journalists started the war". Which doesn't get anyone anywhere, and continues to frame the people you disagree with as "the enemy". It doesn't bring this any closer to some kinds of a useful conclusion. All it does is justify the harm done on both sides.Popido said:
That's why I thank Jim! He points out that not everything is perfect, without saying that anyone "shouldn't be making this type of game". Apart from crap steam games. But who cares about them? Not really familiar with the use of steam for anything other than strictly games, but sounds like it could be an idea. But yeah, fear of being crushed between two juggernauts may well be affecting some people and making them less inclined to talk about these issues!cleric of the order said:
But not eating babies (I'm assuming we mean human babies cause I just had an egg and cheese mcmuffin) is the status quo. You're not trying to change anything by saying, "Don't eat babies." So the apathetic in that case automatically side with you as they're (by and large) not eating babies. In the case of GG, they're trying to change an aspect, the status quo. They want to get rid of articles with "political agendas" and "SJW writers". In that regard, doing nothing doesn't affect that change. It has the opposite effect of what GG desires.First Lastname said:
As someone who wishes he never went down the rabbit hole... stay that way.wooty said:
It's largely two groups talking past each other, neither accepting the other really isn't opposed to what they support. No one is opposed to Journalistic Ethics. No one supports harassment.
Yet there's nitwits on both sides who wouldn't recognize Journalistic Ethics if it bit them in the ass and have no problem harassing their enemies.
It's simply a flame-war that keeps getting more and more oxygen. Just pray Fox News doesn't jump in because of Second Amendment concerns... yes, that's how ridiculous the whole thing is, gun rights are now part of the discussion.
No no. Not the non-GG themselves. The narrative they spin. You know how trolls choose narratives that are the most hurtful to their victims? Imagine a large dedicated group of trolls, hijacking both the "Gamers are hateful bigots" and "Social Justice is absolute" narratives. One helpful tip that people give you concerning internet harassment is that you never go public with it. It will give the trolls confirmation that their tactics are working and it invites more copycat trolls. Whats happening right now, is that same phenomenon being multiplied by the whole gaming press.maffgibson said:
I'm not necessary saying the game journalist started the war, but as long as they believe they're fighting the good fight, they're digging their own graves. Both sides are taking flank, but gamers have less to lose, so the longer this last the more foothold journalists lose.maffgibson said:
That's news to me. A month before this was happening I was talking to my friend about feminism and mentioned that I didn't like the term, she thought it was an apt description. I know the crazies on Tumblr have been using it to describe their own agendaerykweb said:
Even if thats true about the Quinspiracy, that's not how most people got involved in gamergate. I've never said two words about Zoey Quinn. I just looked at what happened and evidence and thought, "she's probably an ass hole". Then people started shouting, "if you don't like Zoey Quinn, its because you hate women," and I thought that was bullshit.
And what about Camera Girl getting harassed and doxxed? Or the black indi developer who started not your shield getting fired from his job? You're saying people want to protect women, but who's protecting everyone else? I've seen 8channers report doxxings and threats on their forums, you said gamergate had to "fall back" but the anti-gg are allowed to sit and their high horses and criticize us while people on their side actively attack others? If they want to prevent the harassment of everyone then they should do something about it or at least acknowledge that it happens. As it stands now, I haven't seen any indication they give a flying fuck about anyone, including women, who disagree with them. And they don't have to cause they have celebrities and "journalists" on their side. That's why I will continue to call them SJW's until they start caring about everyone else because that's how I defined what SJW is, someone who preaches equality but only wants it for certain people and that's what I mean when I say it
I actually don't think its just" about journalism anymore. Its actually gotten people talking about what makes something offensive or misogynistic, rather than rolling their eyes at the arguments they've seen time and time again. If anything good has come from this, is that its got people thinking about that.
You're ultimately right. They aren't that opposed, I myself do think women get the short end of the stick this industry (people accusing Anita of faking her death threats comes to mind). But people need to stop thinking that gg is angry mob out to get women and anti-gg are the gallant knights out to save them. The community's hatred of Quinn is no different than people's hatred of Phil Fishe, but apparently because she's a women its the "harassment this community is known for". And it doesn't muddy the waters for me in the slightest. I don't think they stand for women, they stand for women who agree with them
Its been said that the Internet is the place where the oppressed can finally fulfill their dream of becoming bulliesSaltyk said:
I just want everyone involved to agree that death threats hurled by either party will not solve anything, because there is plenty of evidence to that effect, most notably the fact that the more threats that are hurled, the worse this whole situation gets.
I largely agree. I'm just sort of sick of both groups. Why can't we have ethical journalism AND fair representation of women? These ideas aren't mutually exclusive, but we won't get both from gamergate or the SJW. Not all gamergaters are raging misogynist. Most aren't. But their certainly not interested in pressing for the fair representation of women. The SJW don't give a damn about quality gaming journalism, they ARE journalists. They're perfectly happy with the way things are. Now all either side wants to do is burn everything to the ground. As long as they take the other side with them, they don't care/ But their hurting the image of gaming in general, and frankly the rest of us are tired of it. No ones winning, but we're all losing, even people who aren't affiliated with the movement. Somehow I don't see this ending though, both sides are too entrenched. The journalists would all want to gloat, and that would just fan the fires up again.
I think it's down to all the Anti-SJW rhetoric.Fox12 said:
Folks swear up and down that GG is apolitical, but so many of them constantly go on about Feminists and SJWs that it's hard to swallow. And the only reason they can't shake the Hate Group thing is that it's so damn easy to spot large groups of GGs spinning wild theories about Anita Sarkeesian and the like, trying desperately to invalidate her claims of harassment... and there's no way that doesn't look creepy as hell.
And that's the stuff which makes me stay very, very far away from them. If they dropped all the Quinn/Sarkeesian stuff (neither of which are journalists but both have their own special abbreviations in the Mega-Thread) and took some hard-line stances against mainstream corruption in the gaming industry, such as a campaign to get all Let's Play advertisements labeled as PAID ADVERTISEMENTS (no exceptions, no excuses), then the misogyny stuff would fall by the wayside.
But at the moment, they're a PR nightmare and I don't see that changing any time soon because I think they need the SJW stuff to keep the troops motivated. It's basically a big game and they keep leveling up and facing down bigger and badder boss fights. Now, they're facing down the BBC and MSNBC.
According to Wikipedia, there are 8 diifferent types of Morris Dancing styles.
Imagine a Morris Dancing journalist said; that because of this, the amount of styles, the term Morris dancer was dead. Morris Dancers Are Dead the title would read.
Then the Cotswold Morris Dancers flew in to a rage, they'd never been so insulted. The Cotswold Morris Dancers, created a campaign, some parts of which tried to sensor the author by pressuring their sponsor.
Then the North West Morris Dancers came to the rescue of the author by criticising everything the Cotswold Morris Dancers enjoyed, said or did.
Then each side spoilt the picnic further by escalating into #MorrisGate, death threats, doxing, pedantic criticism etc. While the other six styles of Morris Dancers (Border Morris, Longsword dancing, Rapper, Molly Dancing, Ploughstots and Plough Monday) just wants to dance.
Then the news media outside of Morris dancing start to catch on, and there's headlines like Morris Dancers Death Threat a Woman for Being a Woman, and the words like, "look at those Morris dancing d**k heads," are muttered by the general public, when it was only the Cotswold and the North West Morris Dancers making all the noise.
I feel like such a Molly Dancer.
Imagine a Morris Dancing journalist said; that because of this, the amount of styles, the term Morris dancer was dead. Morris Dancers Are Dead the title would read.
Then the Cotswold Morris Dancers flew in to a rage, they'd never been so insulted. The Cotswold Morris Dancers, created a campaign, some parts of which tried to sensor the author by pressuring their sponsor.
Then the North West Morris Dancers came to the rescue of the author by criticising everything the Cotswold Morris Dancers enjoyed, said or did.
Then each side spoilt the picnic further by escalating into #MorrisGate, death threats, doxing, pedantic criticism etc. While the other six styles of Morris Dancers (Border Morris, Longsword dancing, Rapper, Molly Dancing, Ploughstots and Plough Monday) just wants to dance.
Then the news media outside of Morris dancing start to catch on, and there's headlines like Morris Dancers Death Threat a Woman for Being a Woman, and the words like, "look at those Morris dancing d**k heads," are muttered by the general public, when it was only the Cotswold and the North West Morris Dancers making all the noise.
I feel like such a Molly Dancer.
