GamerGate's Image Problem

[kurupt87]

Why do you believe that there was no just part to the anti-Quinn movement? Of course the harassment and threats are extremely unpleasant and should never happen, but the woman is fairly obviously rather horrible.

A woman who became notable for being the victim of abuse (Wizardchan, that turned out to be fabricated?) is herself a domestic abuser (as far as I am aware not a single word of what Eron alleged has ever been refuted), that was a story.

But it did not fit the narrative of women in gaming being either victims or icons, so instead the media focused on the abuse of her by loud, largely harmless morons and she became an iconic victim.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

Well here's a major issue. This is what happens when I search the hashtag "gamergate" in Twitter.

Now, lets have a breakdown. And for the record, I don't know why the hell "shoeporn" showed up.

I know about Rule 34, but are people really jacking it to shoes?

Hey! Gamergate!

Spoiler

I was in the beginning of the megathread but stopped early on when it was still about Quinn, so my perception is coloured by that. Now it's just so exhaustive that I can't keep track, but it doesn't help that I wasn't all that invested to begin with. It's just videogame journalism. People who like to play videogames writing about it. While the relationship between them and the industry is questionable, I can't help but get the feeling the complaints are from the same people who comment in the IGN and Gamespot boards about how their favourite game isn't rated high enough or their hated game is rated too highly. There's also a huge backlash against feminism even though it's not very prevalent and against indie games in general, with a complete disregard for why critics like indie games in light of the deluge of mediocrity.

EDIT
Also, "journalistic integrity" seems to translate to "don't criticize the medium, especially not from any kind of feminist angle."

 

[Panda Pandemic]

Why do you believe that there was no just part to the anti-Quinn movement? Of course the harassment and threats are extremely unpleasant and should never happen, but the woman is fairly obviously rather horrible.

A woman who became notable for being the victim of abuse (Wizardchan, that turned out to be fabricated?) is herself a domestic abuser (as far as I am aware not a single word of what Eron alleged has ever been refuted), that was a story.

But it did not fit the narrative of women in gaming being either victims or icons, so instead the media focused on the abuse of her by loud, largely harmless morons and she became an iconic victim.

Why is she guilty unless she chooses to join in and publically talk about her relationship? Pretty unreasonable expectation for her to have to start talking to the Internet about her relationship or be presumed guilty.

For the record I think the FB logs show she was shitty, but you can't reasonably blame her for not making a public reply on the details

 

[Random Gamer]

I'm on board with all of that, so where did all this 'angry woman hating misogyny' shit come from? Because I have no idea whether that was a smoke screen or if it actually has any roots in anything.

You'll find a sizable share of assholes in any given human group, and considering it's the internet, they might be on average more numerous and definitely will be more vocal.
There obviously are sexist pigs in the GG lot, there obviously are people who harassed and a couple or handful of scumbags who went as far as sending death threats. (this being the internet, there was harassment going on against people in Gamergate, obviously, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone got a death threat once) Since for some time, this was mostly about a few people, Quinn being front and centre, this attracted its share of misogynists.
Anyone who would deny this would be foolish.

On the other hand, that's also the by-default rebuttal to any and all complaints and demands, whether legitimate, reasonable, or quite out-there. It's becoming tiring, and considering how wide-spread the accusations of misogyny are, this is a risky game, because it's quickly disensitizes thousands or tens of thousands of people, who might not ever give a damn any time anyone talks about sexism (and there are plenty of occasions where it's totally the case and talking about it is not only right but probably necessary).

I should point out however that not all pro-GG people categorically rule out these three options. A change of name has been proposed more than once.

Thing is, I can't see the accusations of sexism, misogyny and the like being dropped. They'll be recycled because it'll be easy to paint the new movement as "Gamergate under another name". Frankly, I can't see how it would not happen, and I can't see how it could be avoided, defuser or countered. I mean, it's not as if people fight fairly here, there are dirty tricks on all sides.

 

[mecegirl]

It just seems to me that if they care about journalistic integrity at all it is only over journalists with a perceived "feminist" slant. The rest could be getting paid off by big time producers right now to give extra press and favorable reviews and they wouldn't care. It's not like we haven't had examples of journalists getting paid off or threatened in some way prior to this incident. So why the grassroots movement now? Especially since its over a game that isn't well known and free.

 

[kurupt87]

(as far as I am aware not a single word of what Eron alleged has ever been refuted)

You know, the onus for evidence doesn't lie on the accused. If it did, then I could say something crazy, like Patrick Stewart threw my kitten into a woodchipper! Do you think any mobs are going to start forming because he doesn't reply to something somebody said about them somewhere?

I've been accused of being a pedophile in real life because I'm not heterosexual. Does it mean I'm a pedophile because, rather than saying "I'm not a pedophile" I flip off the person who says I am and leave?

Standards of evidence, people - have some.

Oh grow up. Quinn has demonstrated that she is not afraid of stepping into the twitter trenches and slinging crap of her own around, which is fine as most of it was in response to the the harassment of the trolls. But, the fact that she does so and has not once said a thing about Eron's story lends it strength. Combined with the impression, that I get from what I've read of him, that he regrets feeling forced to post what he did (even before the whole thing blew up) really makes me believe his story.

Yeah, that whole "of course harassment and threats are bad and shouldn't happen, but come on, she deserved it!" is also a big part of your image problem...

That is quite clearly not what I said. I said she did not deserve it, I said that I believe her to be an unpleasant person. Those two things do not contradict eachother.

Women are always victims in the media. I (a gamer) am always, implicitly, the perpetrator according to the media. When a visible woman reversed the roles and the media did not report on it at all was just frustrating. Something about a camel's back and a straw.

I think a lot of this kerfuffle is due to cultural differences. As a Brit, it has long been "known" that America is a far more racist nation than our own soggy isle. Perhaps the female favoured bias in American gaming media is called for because, like the racism, America is much more sexist than we are over here. I don't know, I've only lived in Britain, but it's a possibility that has crossed my mind.

 

[AkaDad]

Gamergate is so bad...4chan, the place where this all started, has to moderate the conspiracies of their supporters.

 

[kurupt87]

Oh grow up. Quinn has demonstrated that she is not afraid of stepping into the twitter trenches and slinging crap of her own around, which is fine as most of it was in response to the the harassment of the trolls.

Yeah, I'm fine with that. No different than most of he people here on The Escapist.

But, the fact that she does so and has not once said a thing about Eron's story lends it strength.

Patrick Stewart has refused to respond to my allegations that he threw my kitty in a woodchipper, therefore, the allegation has become stronger.

#PicardGate2014

I say again, grow up. At least create a story that actually compares. I'll help, any famous person who is accused of something by a significant other. (Helpful hint, the second party has to be a notable person to the first, not a random horse riding poster.)

Combined with the impression, that I get from what I've read of him, that he regrets feeling forced to post what he did (even before the whole thing blew up) really makes me believe his story.

Know what would make me believe his story?

Facts.

Now I believe that he feels jilted from the whole relationship, and that is a fair response, but if you're to making angry blog posts as a jilted lover out to damage the reputation of your ex, you better provide some evidence. Real evidence, by the way, not him scrolling down his smart phone screen. You know, like, evidence that the relationships mentioned existed outside of a bunch of phone logs that could've been easily faked via jailbreaking the phone.

Then there's all the people saying that Quinn targeted Wizardchan for abuse, or that she scammed TFYC, and their evidence in both of those claims are... just their word, which is even less than what her ex provided. Standards of evidence, people.

Well, various parts of his story have been confirmed. Namely by some of the men with whom she had sexual relations with whilst still in a relationship with her ex.

That is quite clearly not what I said. I said she did not deserve it, I said that I believe her to be an unpleasant person. Those two things do not contradict eachother.

Yeah, no, this is exactly what you said.

Why do you believe that there was no just part to the anti-Quinn movement? Of course the harassment and threats are extremely unpleasant and should never happen, but the woman is fairly obviously rather horrible.

Since the entire "movement" is about slut-shaming and harassing somebody, and you think there's something just to it, you're approving of that behavior.

I would rather you not tell me what I am doing and why, it's really quite presumptuous.

I am not slut-shaming, such a thing would be saying that a single woman who enjoys going out and having sex is a slut. I do not believe that, at least not in the sense that such a thing is a negative in any way. I love those women, they make the weekends far more enjoyable.

What slut-shaming is not, is saying that a woman in a long term exclusive relationship who (either as a manipulative tool or genuine belief) tells her partner that cheating on a partner is a form of rape (relationship=contract, cheat=break contract, broken contract=removal of consent) and then goes on to sleep with not just one person with whom a relationship may bloom but five different people. What it is not is saying that this woman is a bad person.

 

[Zontar]

Gamergate is so bad...4chan, the place where this all started, has to moderate the conspiracies of their supporters.

2 problems with that conspiracy theory you just made.

1st is that it started on Twitter by someone who shows no signs of being a 4chan user. It's possible, but hos attitude is not that which is typically associated with the site.

2nd is that the moderators on the site started to clamp down long before any accusations of conspiracies started, and it was that act which actually helped birth the idea that there was a conspiracy at all (which most of us know there isn't, though only due to the fact that those leading the anti-GamerGate side are cognitively incapable of doing so, and even if they where are unable to do so in a way which doesn't have most of the telling everyone and their dog about it).

 

[kurupt87]

The thing is, neither of us said you, personally, were slut-shaming, we're simply pointing out that you're explicitly condoning others who engage in such behavior because you believe she is a bad person and support a movement started solely to harass and shame her (even if people claim it has moved on from that initial reason, which, as this and other threads here have proven is a blatant lie anyways). In other words, when you claim you don't condone something, immediately followed by a "but" that is then followed by the exact same excuses used to justify the behavior you just stated you didn't condone, your claim that you don't condone that behavior becomes null and void, because you agree with the justification for said behavior. That whole "but" in there, is basically you admitting that there are exceptions to the rule.

Like I said before, disagreeing with the actions of the harassing trolls but agreeing with the judgement that she is a bad person is in no way a mutually exclusive situation.

I believe murderers are bad, I do not believe in mob justice. Does that somehow not compute? Does that somehow mean I don't think the murderer should be punished with prison time? No, of course not. So stop saying exactly that.

And yes, engaging in shaming someone for cheating on their SO who you have no business shaming in the first place, because it does not in any way involve you is, in fact, slut-shaming, so even your claims that you are not slut-shaming become null and void when you immediately follow it with an explicit act of slut-shaming. So, though I didn't accuse you of doing so previously, I am accusing you of doing so presently, because you just did it.

Fascinating, so Tiger Woods and his cheating on his wife and the subsequent media frenzy where he was eviscerated was slut-shaming was it? Was it slut-shaming when Bill Clinton got rekt for his dalliance with his secretary? If so, please inform the world. If not, please stop being sexist?

 

[AkaDad]

Gamergate is so bad...4chan, the place where this all started, has to moderate the conspiracies of their supporters.

2 problems with that conspiracy theory you just made.

1st is that it started on Twitter by someone who shows no signs of being a 4chan user. It's possible, but hos attitude is not that which is typically associated with the site.

2nd is that the moderators on the site started to clamp down long before any accusations of conspiracies started, and it was that act which actually helped birth the idea that there was a conspiracy at all (which most of us know there isn't, though only due to the fact that those leading the anti-GamerGate side are cognitively incapable of doing so, and even if they where are unable to do so in a way which doesn't have most of the telling everyone and their dog about it).

I believe it was Johnny Carson that had that comedy bit.

Carson: X is so bad...
Audience: How bad is it!
Carson: X is so bad that...

Now, on a serious note.

The main reasons why I don't support 4chan's Gamergate is the dishonesty from its supporters saying that it didn't start with 4chan and their hateful, targeted harassment of Zoe Quinn. The guy who started the huge gamergate thread that's up now, is one of the few people who actually admits it.

Then there's all the false claims of corruption, the anti-feminist ranting, and the temper tantrum nature from many of its supporters.

 

[ElMinotoro]

How can you fix this image problem? You can't. You absolutely can't. It started because Eron Gonji was such a super ethical guy. 4 chan ran with it. Attached to #gamergate from the very genesis, the kind of bile is part of it from the core.

To say that this issue was popularised because of censorship disingenuous at best and a bald-faced lie at worst. It was censored because of the kinds of attacks on Zoe that forum moderators have come to expect because games are a youth market and children have little self control or self-moderation. You know in your hearts that this came out of an attack on Zoe. The censorship was partially (not entirely, sure) driven by trying to stamp down on the kind of bile that you can see on every single page of the mega-thread.

Good thing it's about journalistic integrity in an industry that's not actually journalism but critique and editorial. Good thing Gamergate banded everyone together for Doritogate. I remember when we all banded together against Greg Kasavin and his Kane and Lynch review. I remember when we all stopped listening to reviewers who have been given all kinds of free stuff by publishers, etc. I could go on, but I'm pretty sure this indicates that it was only going to happen when cooties was involved.

Nobody got this angry when there was actual physical evidence (rather than hearsay) about reviewers being straight up bribed by big publishers.

 

[kurupt87]

Yes, in both cases it was. And in both cases, I dismissed the media frenzy and ignored it, and asked people why they cared or why it mattered whenever someone brought it up to me. Though it should be duly noted that in the case of Bill Clinton, much of the nation agreed that it was a non-issue and Republicans sullied their reputation for trying to make it an impeachable offense. They literally undermined themselves by attempting to slut shame him, while Tiger Woods, for all the gossip about his sex life, lost some of his sponsors and got out of golf for a while, only to later come back without much fuss. They also were internationally famous celebrities at the time their scandals broke, which fully explains why their personal lives were such a widespread interest, because their personal lives had that kind of interest beforehand.

It's not a matter of caring or it mattering in the grand scheme of things. What it does is give an indication of the character of the person. Both of the examples I gave (as much as I know of them, which is admittedly not a great deal) are less a condemnation of character than the alleged actions of Quinn.

You are also the only person I've spoken to who would describe decrying the actions of a cheater as slut-shaming. I am fairly certain the universal, bar yourself, definition of slut-shaming is to insult women for enjoying sex.

You're getting hung up on the sex. It is the willing and repeated betrayal of the person to whom you (should) share a deep bond of trust that is what people hate about cheaters.