GamerGate's Image Problem

[MerlinCross]

The HumbleBundle thing is getting weird now, before it was because they were associated with some sort of unsubstantiated fraud thing involving paypal. Now the weekly bundle has this Girls Making Games thing which is positive, but even there it looks like they're trying to find reasons to hate it because they're supported by Tim Schaffer whose still on the blacklist for... some reason? Time will tell how that pans out, best that'll likely happen is they might try to group funds together to make one big donation of a couple hundred and put #Gamergate as a top contributor on the list which... I mean it's money going to a cause I support, I can't be mad, but it's blatantly using a good cause to grab PR for yourselves, like that suicide charity thing on the 11th when y'all lost your minds over Zoe and Anita again and wanted to deflect bad press for becoming an angry mob again. It's not evil exactly, it's just not, y'know, "good."

Is the HumbleBundle/PayPal thing a recent thing? I admit I don't know much about the Bundle since I rarely see games I'd like to have(OR most of them are games I already have) So I might be out of the loop here. Dunno about the Tim Schaffer blacklist(or any whitelists. I make my own lists personally). I think a few tweets and people painted him as in the wrong, which is seriously something #GG has to stop doing. Even if he is 'against us' don't just give up. Discussion people, discussion. But this is kinda standard in the 'us or them' mentality that humanity seems to have.

Now I recall the suicide charity thing, but wasn't sure if it was aimed at Zoe/Anita. I thought it was just aimed at them, AND Journalists at large to show that #GG can do good. Granted some of those donators probably did it out of spite(again).

Side note, I'd love for the movement to not mention Zoe or Anita, or whatever code name we'd like to use. See I came on board about...last week I think? I wasn't part of the rage before #GG or the founding/rallying cry of it either. So yeah just two cents from a newer #GG member. Now gonna go see what the Bundle has, hit a low in my games.

(Side note, I still hate that the POUND/NUMBER symbol is it's own word.)

 

[aliengmr]

Yet through all the abuse GG has endured, where's the sympathy? I mean the past harassment was bad but instead of feeling remorseful about that you try to explain how it didn't happen. Its a PR game for GG.

I'm sorry, you kinda lost me there, I'm not sure what it is you're referring to.

You all don't deserve what is happening. I mean that. But you allowed this to happen by being an uncoordinated mass of anger that is on the search for the bad guy. People are going to fuck with you. You are in the spotlight, just like those who were harassed by GG before. I've tried to spell it out for you, but mega thread won't listen.

Your true enemy: #GamerGate

My take on it is really simple, it's just how viral movement on the internet is. Expectation of coordination is unrealistic IMO, as it would demand a level of resource and infrastructure where none is present.

1. My point was referring to the various comment about being harassed by anti-GG and how not one single moment does anyone seem to reflect on that. Maybe realizing what a seemingly endless stream of hate might cause one to say and feel. Two wrongs don't make a right but at this point it ought to make people think.

2.Except the opportunity was there from the beginning. You had big names on your side (still do) and a focus that many could get behind. Except somewhere along the line GG was convinced that the hashtag was much more important than perusing real changes.

 

[aliengmr]

The HumbleBundle thing is getting weird now, before it was because they were associated with some sort of unsubstantiated fraud thing involving paypal. Now the weekly bundle has this Girls Making Games thing which is positive, but even there it looks like they're trying to find reasons to hate it because they're supported by Tim Schaffer whose still on the blacklist for... some reason? Time will tell how that pans out, best that'll likely happen is they might try to group funds together to make one big donation of a couple hundred and put #Gamergate as a top contributor on the list which... I mean it's money going to a cause I support, I can't be mad, but it's blatantly using a good cause to grab PR for yourselves, like that suicide charity thing on the 11th when y'all lost your minds over Zoe and Anita again and wanted to deflect bad press for becoming an angry mob again. It's not evil exactly, it's just not, y'know, "good."

Is the HumbleBundle/PayPal thing a recent thing? I admit I don't know much about the Bundle since I rarely see games I'd like to have(OR most of them are games I already have) So I might be out of the loop here. Dunno about the Tim Schaffer blacklist(or any whitelists. I make my own lists personally). I think a few tweets and people painted him as in the wrong, which is seriously something #GG has to stop doing. Even if he is 'against us' don't just give up. Discussion people, discussion. But this is kinda standard in the 'us or them' mentality that humanity seems to have.

Now I recall the suicide charity thing, but wasn't sure if it was aimed at Zoe/Anita. I thought it was just aimed at them, AND Journalists at large to show that #GG can do good. Granted some of those donators probably did it out of spite(again).

Side note, I'd love for the movement to not mention Zoe or Anita, or whatever code name we'd like to use. See I came on board about...last week I think? I wasn't part of the rage before #GG or the founding/rallying cry of it either. So yeah just two cents from a newer #GG member. Now gonna go see what the Bundle has, hit a low in my games.

(Side note, I still hate that the POUND/NUMBER symbol is it's own word.)

Early on gg/4chan was trying to go after Zoe Quinn for allegedly lying that she was supporting the suicide prevention charity. Much like the Anita/police thing, someone inquired and ran with the first answer they had without confirming. So gg/4chan spite-funded the charity to make her look bad, turns out the accusation was false.

 

[RexMundane]

You literally quoted me saying the hitler tweet was bad, then asked why I didn't condemn it.

Actually, the point that I wanted to make is that when it's the pro-GG people spewing the vitriol, you and some others typically uses that as evidence to show that GG is bad. But when it's the anti-GG people spewing the vitriol, you may condemn the offender themselves, but doesn't take that leap to say that anti-GG is bad (which is the correct thing to do).

You quoted me quoting him and his fantasy about decapitating a mans corpse to shit in it, and insisted I was engaging in ad hominem over his avatar alone.

You could've very easily made your point about his post without the avatar bit, that was my point. Just as I'm disagreeing with you right now without making up some silly jokes about your avatar picture.

But Gate's persistence in pretending they themselves are all erudite egalitarians whose cultured idioms wouldst ne'er deign to speak in so coarse and vulgar a tongue, just plain grinds my fucking tits to shit.

Just as there are some really downright terrible people in the anti-GG gate who seems to consider themselves the Most Enlightened and Wise champions of humanity annoys me to no end, but I'm not going to take that out on you.

What makes you more special than he?

I wouldn't know, I don't even know the guy, why would I consider myself more special than him?

Igh... a piece-by-piece 4-part response. See, this is why I don't do forums usually, that's just an ugly way to structure an argument.

My broad point about the "what makes you special" comment had to do with the idea that judging a person as a villain because they said an awful thing in anger is counterproductive. Velventian said a shitty thing when he was at a low point, I don't think he's a bad person because of it. I freely admit that I, in anger, have acted worse, as I'm sure we all have at some point, and I feel it would be absurd to judge our humanity against our lowest moments. Conversely, much of the Gamergate rage seems to be at people saying a dumb thing in a moment of anger, and from much of what I've seen, there shall be no peace until everyone at Kotaku is summarily executed for crimes against your feelings. I was urging perspective.

Also, my point about Velventian's avatar, which I see he's now changed, was about the irony of making fun of people for having hurt feelings, then not just participating in Gamergate, but indulging in decapitation defecating daydreams out of anger. That he, when he chose that avatar, wouldn't have thought himself capable of succumbing to emotive angry outbursts, and that here one was. And that you or I are no different, and equally capable of being brought low. Again, perspective. Judge not lest ye et cetera.

 

[runic knight]

You know, it is sad that after all this time, I have seen many times on these forums and on twitter where pro-gamergate people would dogpile a pro-gamergater saying something stupid in quick order and yet the best I have seen of people denouncing anti-gamergaters has been "well, i denounce the trolls" As if that is all the anti-gaters and gamergaters bad blood stemmed from.

How about the journaslists and not-random people on twitter? You know, the same people gamergate has been decrying and opposing this whole time, in part for how they screamed and raged at their audience like a bunch of lunatics? Compared us to ISIS and so forth? Because there seems to be this great lack of perspective in general about gamergate and the anti-gamergate people.

Both have trolls and horrible people, this is true.

Gamergate has random horrible people the same you get just from being anonymous online.

Anti-gamergate has what should be professionals acting just like random anonymous trolls, as well as the usual trolls.

So yeah, sort of worth noting that subtly difference there.

also, for all I keep seeing people crying out that the megathread is nothing but an echo chamber, I keep seeing the same relative group of anti-gamergate posters outside the megathread but in every other thread relating to it making sniping remarks, derailing and generally being "echo chambers" of their own.

Hell, look what bob and rex are doing in this very thread. They have literally devolved into nothing more then openly mocking and laughing at people. That isn't even relating to the overall topic of gamergate's image anymore, that is just seeking an excuse to belittle and mock someone they disagree with. What in the hell?

I am aware gamergate has an image issue, that was my quote in the first post after all, but instead of actual talk about that, all I keep seeing is the same snipes and dismissals.
"Oh, you are all just misogynistic, you should end the movement and start over"
"Oh, you are all just conspiracy theorists"
"Your cause isn't what you actually say it is, it is what we want to tell you it is"
"You have some bad people associated with and that means you can never be anything more then what the worst of you are."
"Anti-gamergate has some bad people but that is ok because they are just trolls, even if they are named professionals working in the industry"

How does any of that actually address the topic at hand any more then a topic on "how can I improve my fashion" being filled with "go kill yourself." "You are male so you can't" and other such garbage, mean-spirited jabs.

I get it, you don't like those things that people keep associating with gamergate, but how in the hell is that relevant when it was a slander to begin with? And what is worse, is that the conviction of belief in those slanders is so strong that it becomes really pointless to argue with most people about it since there is no way uproot that idea. How can we talk about improving gamergate's image with people that refuse to entertain that possibility themselves?

Seriously, this thread has devolved into nothing but an excuse to openly mock gamergate and the people who legitimately feel there are concerns with the gaming media and journalists and thus follow it. I do not know if the original post was in good faith, but I will assume it was. The posts that have come after though?

"Hey, look at what someone said in the other thread devoid of context so we can laugh"

Hell, half the crap I see popping up is just unmitigated horse shit through and through, like the oft-repeated "gamergate is misogynistic" and various arguments, decryments and dismissals about everything as a result. Or the claims it is "about" zoe or anita and not the actual fact of the matter: a direct result of how the journalists reacted when asked about zoe, or how anita is treated like a damsel by the media to protect and deflect all criticism, valid or trollish. It is like so many just can not accept the fault complained about is how those people are treated by the media and not who they are or what gender they possess.

So far the only real bit of good advice I have seen has been to actual inform people, since there is so much misinformation around that it is little wonder gamergate has an image problem. But even trying that in this and many other threads I have to listen to the same group of people around these threads constantly mocking and belittling and derailing and outright denying things like what my motivations are. If this was any other argument or any other topic, this would be seen as outright disgusting behavior and stopped long ago. Hell I have watched a lot of pro-gaters get hit with strikes and warning and have nodded my head sadly as I knew that they deserved it for a foolish post they made or something outright ill-conceived. But then I have to watch as people on the forum itself are being openly mocked...?

I am tired. I am tired of repeating myself over and over. I am tired of seeing the same names over and over repeat the same things and refuse to even acknowledge the possibility that they may be wrong or ill-informed. I am tired of broad generalizations demonizing me as a supporter of gamergate for the actions of the anonymous nob while the very blatant and disgusting actions of people who should be professionals are not even acknowledged, let alone disparaged or openly called out by the same people who would rather spend their time calling people conspiracy theorists as if the actual revelation of a conspiracy was somehow unimportant when they just want to snipe at people. I'm tired of hearing that my complaints against an industry I am a consumer of are not valid or that a consumer reaction to such ill-behavior by that industry is this great act of terrorism and hate-fueled misogyny.I'm tired of having to explain why gamergate has an image problem in the first place to people who either never realized or refuse to grasp that when you are protesting the very media itself, that media is going to paint you in the worst light itself, especially when it wants to discredit, dismiss, deflect or demonize rather then actually address the concerns and complaints.

I offered that initial question with honest intent, but I remember the thread starter arguing with me that the gamergate mega thread was not the right place to discuss it. They argued that it was too insular and too intimidating to people who have learned to avoid it. And I still agree with that. But seeing how threads related to it are filled with...THIS, I don't think it would have mattered in the end anyways. Sort of impossible to talk about improving the image of something that people can't even agree on the definition or qualities of. And when some people define it with horrible misrepresentation in the first place, it is little wonder they will then reply "you can't make it look better".

 

[aliengmr]

-snip-

GamerGate needed a mirror, they got one and never looked at it. Too bust fighting, revising history, talking about "war", coming up with an enemy, and on, and on, and on.

Oh and the endless conspiracies.

The first thing you should have done was the first thing you shot out of the water.

When people stopped engaging and started literally making shit up, you all deserved to be mocked. When you read the accounts of those developers, and responded by saying they were "misinformed", you deserved to be mocked. When you refused to even consider that trying to explain explain things better was an insult, you were rightfully mocked.

You all wanted to understand and never took the time. I never called anyone including you a misogynist. I tried to engage you and it did NOTHING. In fact next day you were out raging like never before.

So yea, I mocked, you all weren't going to listen any way.

 

[Nikolaz72]

Snip

You call that engaging? You've been smugly insulting tens of thousands of people in nearly all your posts.

 

[KokujinTensai]

-snip-

GamerGate needed a mirror, they got one and never looked at it. Too bust fighting, revising history, talking about "war", coming up with an enemy, and on, and on, and on.

Oh and the endless conspiracies.

The first thing you should have done was the first thing you shot out of the water.

When people stopped engaging and started literally making shit up, you all deserved to be mocked. When you read the accounts of those developers, and responded by saying they were "misinformed", you deserved to be mocked. When you refused to even consider that trying to explain explain things better was an insult, you were rightfully mocked.

You all wanted to understand and never took the time. I never called anyone including you a misogynist. I tried to engage you and it did NOTHING. In fact next day you were out raging like never before.

So yea, I mocked, you all weren't going to listen any way.

Alienmgr stop harassing us! You anti-gamer! *Runs to Patreon*

Let's quell the emotions. That was in jest BTW.

 

[runic knight]

-snip-

GamerGate needed a mirror, they got one and never looked at it. Too bust fighting, revising history, talking about "war", coming up with an enemy, and on, and on, and on.

Oh and the endless conspiracies.

The first thing you should have done was the first thing you shot out of the water.

When people stopped engaging and started literally making shit up, you all deserved to be mocked. When you read the accounts of those developers, and responded by saying they were "misinformed", you deserved to be mocked. When you refused to even consider that trying to explain explain things better was an insult, you were rightfully mocked.

You all wanted to understand and never took the time. I never called anyone including you a misogynist. I tried to engage you and it did NOTHING. In fact next day you were out raging like never before.

So yea, I mocked, you all weren't going to listen any way.

"Making shit up"? I'd ask for evidence but I am sure you can dig up some post or another to prove the statement is true even if the spirit you said it in probably isn't honest. Doesn't even matter that the vague statement is meant to dismiss the overall claims and concern of the entire movement by poisoning the well thanks to some general people running shooting off the handle though, since you dismissed all claims and arguments people were making before hand anyways. Anything to support the confirmation bias.

"Misinformed" is correct though, as they made statements that are factually incorrect. That isn't even debatable, when they repeated things like "4chan made gamergate", they were obviously misinformed. Or would debating that also mean I deserve to be mocked for daring to defend my claim that you disagree with?

"Trying to explain things" is what I and countless others have been doing from the start. In spite of constant petty jabs, insults and open mockery, many have tried over and over again to explain things, to discuss things and argue things. And in response, we get more of the same mockery jabs and pettiness in return. Hell, I can only think of a handful that actually rationally argued and discussed such as Transgamer.

But all that is pointless because you just told yourself "you all deserved to be mocked" because we disagree with you. And that is exactly what I was ranting about there. We've been insulted, derided and mocked for weeks now because we disagree with you, and you and others like you feel it is perfectly justified that that disagreement itself is deserving enough to mock an entire diverse group of people.

I will agree you didn't call me misogynistic, but then again, the post wasn't just directed at you, but at the many anti-gamergaters in the forums, many of whom do claim gamergate is misogynistic. But I did try to engage you, got nowhere and tried engaging with others. Though I don't recall where I was out "raging like never before". I'd say I want evidence of that, but what would be the point? You've already made your conclusion, assumed "you all weren't going to listen any way" and that makes it ok to mock and belittle and insult people.

After all, how dare we disagree.

 

[runic knight]

-snip-

GamerGate needed a mirror, they got one and never looked at it. Too bust fighting, revising history, talking about "war", coming up with an enemy, and on, and on, and on.

Oh and the endless conspiracies.

The first thing you should have done was the first thing you shot out of the water.

When people stopped engaging and started literally making shit up, you all deserved to be mocked. When you read the accounts of those developers, and responded by saying they were "misinformed", you deserved to be mocked. When you refused to even consider that trying to explain explain things better was an insult, you were rightfully mocked.

You all wanted to understand and never took the time. I never called anyone including you a misogynist. I tried to engage you and it did NOTHING. In fact next day you were out raging like never before.

So yea, I mocked, you all weren't going to listen any way.

Alienmgr stop harassing us! You anti-gamer! *Runs to Patreon*

dude.... please... don't even bother with that stuff. You will get a flag, it isn't helping and it isn't worth it.

 

[RexMundane]

I offered that initial question with honest intent, but I remember the thread starter arguing with me that the gamergate mega thread was not the right place to discuss it. They argued that it was too insular and too intimidating to people who have learned to avoid it. And I still agree with that. But seeing how threads related to it are filled with...THIS, I don't think it would have mattered in the end anyways. Sort of impossible to talk about improving the image of something that people can't even agree on the definition or qualities of. And when some people define it with horrible misrepresentation in the first place, it is little wonder they will then reply "you can't make it look better".

...but I feel you can make it look better.

While I think your comment rather unfairly characterizes much of the criticism being offered, and that attacking people for mockery is non-productive for either side of any argument, your point is taken. Presuming your sincere intent to ask what Gamergate can do to be seen as more legitimate across a broader spectrum, I offer an answer from my own perspective, which I feel is a point I've been orbiting around for my last handful of posts.

You all need to stop being angry.

I'm not talking about the harassers, we're all agreed that shit ain't kosher no matter which side it comes from. I'm talking about anger generally. Gamergate doesn't have goals (indeed, any time I've seen the idea of goals suggested it gets shot down as appeasement tactics, and the suggester labeled a shill), it has enemies. Enemies it despises. Enemies that are actively anti-ethics and sub-human. Enemies it attacks with a frothing passion that would be so much more sympathetic if that same energy were applied to something productive.

You think I don't believe there's problems in contemporary games journalism? I'd love if we could have a calm and reasonable discussion about productive changes to editorial policy. I think the Escapist broadly made the right decision in how it handled certain fundamentals of that and could constitute a template it would behoove other sites to follow. Other sites (Kotaku, Polygon, Destructoid, etc.) have also changed their policies as a reaction to what's happening. Yet for a movement that has, I keep hearing, only been about journalistic integrity, I don't see any less self-destructive anger.

I look in the thread and I don't see people critical of Kotaku editorial policy, I see people who want Steven Totilo to suffer. I don't see people who have opinions about what Polygon could do to be more open with potential conflicts of interest, I see people who want Ben Kuchera to be thrown in jail for unspecified criminal charges. I don't even now see people roughly appreciative of The Escapist doing more than anywhere else has to cater to Gamergate, I see people angry that Jim Sterling and Moviebob are allowed to continue to exist.

As I keep saying, again, doing the undeserved favor of ignoring all the associated abuse and sexism charges, what's left at the core of Gamergate doesn't seem to me, or a lot of people, to be much more than undirected anger at (*peeks back into the mega*) well at the moment it seems to be targeting SJWs again, as well as tearing V da Mighty Taco apart for, after supporting you for weeks, daring to question the tactics. I notice too many of the Gamergate regulars have flocked to the Zoe Quinn apology thread to call her a psychotic abusive whore as well, so, you know, there's that.

And all of this cuts to the core of that Gamergate is about. All this anger. All this pure, vile rage. All this petty infighting and screaming hostility. All this paranoid insularity and insane conspiracies. All the allusions to superheroics and battling legions of villains. All this hate, hate, hate, HATE. That's what people see when they look in deeper to Gamergate. Hell, many of it's members proudly identify it as an "angry mob," secure in the belief of it being something to be proud of, like it makes you stronger and powerful, makes you seem smarter or more sympathetic. This is abundantly not the case.

And forget whether you have a "good reason" to be angry. From everyone's perspective, everyone has a "good reason." Doesn't make anger a good thing. Doesn't turn anger into something that can help people. Doesn't make it productive. Even when it's righteous, justifiable, it still only breaks things down instead of building them up. I look in the thread and I see people who don't want to improve games journalism, I see people who want to "burn it all to the ground." And they're controlling the conversation among the "sane" of your number.

Anger is self-fulfilling. It's a fun emotion while you're having it. You end up looking for just more and more shit to get riled up about, and by being riled up, you get targeted by people who are themselves quite angry. Everyone ends up furious and horrible, justifying why everyone is being furious and horrible, looking for more and more people to be horribly furious at. It's why most people are staying out of this mess entirely, and the ones that wade in just see the screaming. And the anger is natural, we're all human. But if there's things to actually accomplish, you won't get them done while you're all angry at anything.

All these are basic things too that any effective movement would have set up at the outset: clear goals, try to keep calm, sensible leadership and reasonable public faces always help. And yet Gamergate has actively resisted all of these attempts (I'm still mystified at people calling Boogie a shill for trying to get y'all focused. Fucking Boogie, man, what the shit?) and to it's increased detriment as it just gets angrier and angrier, more inwardly drawn, paranoid, lashing out at members and allies for not falling in lock-step, and it's all unhealthy. Stop it. Not for our sake, I mean fuck us, right? But for yours.

edit: goddam my ass, I spend an hour writing up a post trying to be fair that I know won't even get read and another derailing petty-ass fight breaks out. All of you calm your tits down this instant or I'm turning this car around!

 

[aliengmr]

-snip-

GamerGate needed a mirror, they got one and never looked at it. Too bust fighting, revising history, talking about "war", coming up with an enemy, and on, and on, and on.

Oh and the endless conspiracies.

The first thing you should have done was the first thing you shot out of the water.

When people stopped engaging and started literally making shit up, you all deserved to be mocked. When you read the accounts of those developers, and responded by saying they were "misinformed", you deserved to be mocked. When you refused to even consider that trying to explain explain things better was an insult, you were rightfully mocked.

You all wanted to understand and never took the time. I never called anyone including you a misogynist. I tried to engage you and it did NOTHING. In fact next day you were out raging like never before.

So yea, I mocked, you all weren't going to listen any way.

"Making shit up"? I'd ask for evidence but I am sure you can dig up some post or another to prove the statement is true even if the spirit you said it in probably isn't honest. Doesn't even matter that the vague statement is meant to dismiss the overall claims and concern of the entire movement by poisoning the well thanks to some general people running shooting off the handle though, since you dismissed all claims and arguments people were making before hand anyways. Anything to support the confirmation bias.

"Misinformed" is correct though, as they made statements that are factually incorrect. That isn't even debatable, when they repeated things like "4chan made gamergate", they were obviously misinformed. Or would debating that also mean I deserve to be mocked for daring to defend my claim that you disagree with?

"Trying to explain things" is what I and countless others have been doing from the start. In spite of constant petty jabs, insults and open mockery, many have tried over and over again to explain things, to discuss things and argue things. And in response, we get more of the same mockery jabs and pettiness in return. Hell, I can only think of a handful that actually rationally argued and discussed such as Transgamer.

But all that is pointless because you just told yourself "you all deserved to be mocked" because we disagree with you. And that is exactly what I was ranting about there. We've been insulted, derided and mocked for weeks now because we disagree with you, and you and others like you feel it is perfectly justified that that disagreement itself is deserving enough to mock an entire diverse group of people.

I will agree you didn't call me misogynistic, but then again, the post wasn't just directed at you, but at the many anti-gamergaters in the forums, many of whom do claim gamergate is misogynistic. But I did try to engage you, got nowhere and tried engaging with others. Though I don't recall where I was out "raging like never before". I'd say I want evidence of that, but what would be the point? You've already made your conclusion, assumed "you all weren't going to listen any way" and that makes it ok to mock and belittle and insult people.

After all, how dare we disagree.

You all deserved to be mocked because you absolutely refused to listen. Disagreeing is one thing, refusing to acknowledge reality, quite another.

Don't you see, facts don't exist anymore. Its all one huge mess with sources all over and people who just found out. Its a fucking mess. You cant argue any of it anymore. There aren't any facts, just interpretations from unreliable sources.

I'm not sure why you think a sad sack like me mocking the almighty hashtag of doom is worth responding to anyway. After all, I am just a misunderstood SJWs trying to take your games away.

EDIT:Rex had to go all text wall and shame me, so I'll stop mocking you (unless GG does something worthy of it, Nokia? really?). and maybe I was a bit harsh in tone, *cough* sorry.

 

[runic knight]

I offered that initial question with honest intent, but I remember the thread starter arguing with me that the gamergate mega thread was not the right place to discuss it. They argued that it was too insular and too intimidating to people who have learned to avoid it. And I still agree with that. But seeing how threads related to it are filled with...THIS, I don't think it would have mattered in the end anyways. Sort of impossible to talk about improving the image of something that people can't even agree on the definition or qualities of. And when some people define it with horrible misrepresentation in the first place, it is little wonder they will then reply "you can't make it look better".

...but I feel you can make it look better.

While I think your comment rather unfairly characterizes much of the criticism being offered, and that attacking people for mockery is non-productive for either side of any argument, your point is taken. Presuming your sincere intent to ask what Gamergate can do to be seen as more legitimate across a broader spectrum, I offer an answer from my own perspective, which I feel is a point I've been orbiting around for my last handful of posts.

You all need to stop being angry.

I'm not talking about the harassers, we're all agreed that shit ain't kosher no matter which side it comes from. I'm talking about anger generally. Gamergate doesn't have goals (indeed, any time I've seen the idea of goals suggested it gets shot down as appeasement tactics, and the suggester labeled a shill), it has enemies. Enemies it despises. Enemies that are actively anti-ethics and sub-human. Enemies it attacks with a frothing passion that would be so much more sympathetic if that same energy were applied to something productive.

You think I don't believe there's problems in contemporary games journalism? I'd love if we could have a calm and reasonable discussion about productive changes to editorial policy. I think the Escapist broadly made the right decision in how it handled certain fundamentals of that and could constitute a template it would behoove other sites to follow. Other sites (Kotaku, Polygon, Destructoid, etc.) have also changed their policies as a reaction to what's happening. Yet for a movement that has, I keep hearing, only been about journalistic integrity, I don't see any less self-destructive anger.

I look in the thread and I don't see people critical of Kotaku editorial policy, I see people who want Steven Totilo to suffer. I don't see people who have opinions about what Polygon could do to be more open with potential conflicts of interest, I see people who want Ben Kuchera to be thrown in jail for unspecified criminal charges. I don't even now see people roughly appreciative of The Escapist doing more than anywhere else has to cater to Gamergate, I see people angry that Jim Sterling and Moviebob are allowed to continue to exist.

As I keep saying, again, doing the undeserved favor of ignoring all the associated abuse and sexism charges, what's left at the core of Gamergate doesn't seem to me, or a lot of people, to be much more than undirected anger at (*peeks back into the mega*) well at the moment it seems to be targeting SJWs again, as well as tearing V da Mighty Taco apart for, after supporting you for weeks, daring to question the tactics. I notice too many of the Gamergate regulars have flocked to the Zoe Quinn apology thread to call her a psychotic abusive whore as well, so, you know, there's that.

And all of this cuts to the core of that Gamergate is about. All this anger. All this pure, vile rage. All this petty infighting and screaming hostility. All this paranoid insularity and insane conspiracies. All the allusions to superheroics and battling legions of villains. All this hate, hate, hate, HATE. That's what people see when they look in deeper to Gamergate. Hell, many of it's members proudly identify it as an "angry mob," secure in the belief of it being something to be proud of, like it makes you stronger and powerful, makes you seem smarter or more sympathetic. This is abundantly not the case.

And forget whether you have a "good reason" to be angry. From everyone's perspective, everyone has a "good reason." Doesn't make anger a good thing. Doesn't turn anger into something that can help people. Doesn't make it productive. Even when it's righteous, justifiable, it still only breaks things down instead of building them up. I look in the thread and I see people who don't want to improve games journalism, I see people who want to "burn it all to the ground." And they're controlling the conversation among the "sane" of your number.

Anger is self-fulfilling. It's a fun emotion while you're having it. You end up looking for just more and more shit to get riled up about, and by being riled up, you get targeted by people who are themselves quite angry. Everyone ends up furious and horrible, justifying why everyone is being furious and horrible, looking for more and more people to be horribly furious at. It's why most people are staying out of this mess entirely, and the ones that wade in just see the screaming. And the anger is natural, we're all human. But if there's things to actually accomplish, you won't get them done while you're all angry at anything.

All these are basic things too that any effective movement would have set up at the outset: clear goals, try to keep calm, sensible leadership and reasonable public faces always help. And yet Gamergate has actively resisted all of these attempts (I'm still mystified at people calling Boogie a shill for trying to get y'all focused. Fucking Boogie, man, what the shit?) and to it's increased detriment as it just gets angrier and angrier, more inwardly drawn, paranoid, lashing out at members and allies for not falling in lock-step, and it's all unhealthy. Stop it. Not for our sake, I mean fuck us, right? But for yours.

Alright, I'll take you as sincere in this and see where it goes.

Yes people have anger, and yes it is not always productive. But the anger did not just appear out of thin air and does not just perpetuate itself. It started in response to how the zoe story was handled with censorship and persists as the people being called out of a lack of ethical and professional behavior continue to fan the flame and present themselves not just as solely right, but outright untouchable while they demonize their audience. Mass censorship on the topic, all moderates being dismissed outright, people like boogie and totalbiskit being shot down with waves of hate... It feeds the anger, and it also removes avenues for people to try to actually address their concerns.

It is all well and good to condemn anger for being destructive, but this isn't a trollish flame war that rose out of hate itself, this was the result of other avenues being closed off so all that remained was the reaction of the outraged consumer. And it is important to remember that this is defined as a consumer revolt. These are people that don't feel they have to form a leadership and formal organization (and some actively fear the spirit of the movement will be lost if we did), but rather that because the obvious repeated calls of "we want better journalistic integrity" has been met with not attempts to seek to understand the demand but open disdain and scorn. And that is not even getting into what has happened with the de-facto "leaders" we have already had when it comes to harassment, doxxing and abuse heaved at them. i don't blame anyone for not wanting to be leadership and get that target on their back.

And the same idea of removed avenues sort of applies to why people want Totilo gone rather just for kotaku to change its policy. What good would a policy change do if the people who have been ignoring the concerns and complaints and turning on their audience with outright hostility and disdain are still running the show? It wouldn't do anything and the trust in them is gone to the point that they are seen as the corruption. And there is a point in that. They are the ones who have acted unethically and unprofessionally, and they are the ones who flaunt it as though they are untouchable, suggesting that their disdain for their audience means they can't be trusted to not do it again. if I may quote someone fro mthe big thread on this one

You have never understood what people in this thread define as "them," because you have steadfastly refused to listen to to us when we try and explain it to you. We have always been open to reasonable discussion with reasonable parties. That is a very different position, than your continued lobbying for us to attempt to engage in reasonable discussion with unreasonable people. I have no doubt, that if Ben Kuchera, Leigh Alexander, Deven Ferachi, or many of the others who have been loudly insulting us for more than a month, came into this thread and said "hey guys, let's put the past behind us and be reasonable" they would promptly be told by many people that they should resign, and go hide under a rock for the rest of their professional life, because we have no interest in anything they have to say.

That is in no way shape or form us saying that we will never again talk to any writer in a civil tone. That is saying that we have no obligation to be civil to specific people, who went well out of their way to make sure every single gamer was crystal clear on exactly how low a regard those specific people had for us. Despite your repeated attempts at tone moderation, most reasonable people understand that there are consequences for acting unprofessionally, and one of those consequences is losing the respect and consideration of an audience you are openly hostile towards.

If this was any other field, they would have been fired weeks ago. And that isn't even "I hate them" feeling, that is just a simple truth of the business world.

Finally I have to admit, I find your attempts to dismiss the anger as bad really sort of telling about your perception of gamergate itself. As I said before, the anger is the result of all other avenues being closed. That has not stopped being the case either. Have I missed where Totilo has come forward and asked for people to voice their complaints and addressed concerns? Will I no longer be banned if I post on reddit or 4chan about gamergate? If you want to know why people are angry and starting to be paranoid, look no further then how they are treated. Hell, 4chan is in civil war over this. Sites have been DDoS'd and people are getting doxxed all over. Complaints as consumers of a service resulted in full denial of the discussion. Discussion and questions resulted in outright censorship. What else does a consumer have at this point to try to get the changes they want when the ones they want the changes from not only wont listen to them, but are the problem itself?

 

[runic knight]

You all deserved to be mocked because you absolutely refused to listen. Disagreeing is one thing, refusing to acknowledge reality, quite another.

Don't you see, facts don't exist anymore. Its all one huge mess with sources all over and people who just found out. Its a fucking mess. You cant argue any of it anymore. There aren't any facts, just interpretations from unreliable sources.

I'm not sure why you think a sad sack like me mocking the almighty hashtag of doom is worth responding to anyway. After all, I am just a misunderstood SJWs trying to take your games away.

EDIT:Rex had to go all text wall and shame me, so I'll stop mocking you (unless GG does something worthy of it, Nokia? really?). and maybe I was a bit harsh in tone, *cough* sorry.

"refused to listen"... to who? People telling us not to talk about a topic? Lies and slander made about us? The opinions of people who refused to even argue in good faith, instead ranting and raving about what horrible people we are? Who was it we are not listening to in this that justifies mockery?

Facts exist, they always exist, they are always consistent. That is why they are called facts. So your point there is anathema of all reason and civilized discussion. or perhaps it is more akin to "facts can be interpreted a lot of different ways" which I would agree with, though that then just goes back into "why do you think it is acceptable to mock people for interpreting facts differently then you?"

You are mocking people because they disagree with you and then trying to validate your actions by justifying that disagreeing with you makes it morally acceptable to be a jerk to those who disagreed. Furthermore, you are mocking an entire group of people for actions of more individual members of that group. Neither is good for any sort of discussion.

 

[aliengmr]

So the angry mob is coming for you do you:

A) Engage them in civil discourse

B) hide.



This is actually serious BTW

 

[runic knight]

So the angry mob is coming for you do you:

A) Engage them in civil discourse

B) hide.



This is actually serious BTW

The mob didn't start angry. Didn't even become a mob until posts got deleted, people were unfairly banned and all forms of civil discourse were removed or denied.

This is more akin to trying to clean up corruption in a mayor's office, first by talk and discourse, only to be met with martial law in return. The mob coming for them after that doesn't mean they get to play the victim for the repercussions of their own actions. After all, the reason the mob formed was as a result of how they handled things in the first place.

 

[aliengmr]

You all deserved to be mocked because you absolutely refused to listen. Disagreeing is one thing, refusing to acknowledge reality, quite another.

Don't you see, facts don't exist anymore. Its all one huge mess with sources all over and people who just found out. Its a fucking mess. You cant argue any of it anymore. There aren't any facts, just interpretations from unreliable sources.

I'm not sure why you think a sad sack like me mocking the almighty hashtag of doom is worth responding to anyway. After all, I am just a misunderstood SJWs trying to take your games away.

EDIT:Rex had to go all text wall and shame me, so I'll stop mocking you (unless GG does something worthy of it, Nokia? really?). and maybe I was a bit harsh in tone, *cough* sorry.

"refused to listen"... to who? People telling us not to talk about a topic? Lies and slander made about us? The opinions of people who refused to even argue in good faith, instead ranting and raving about what horrible people we are? Who was it we are not listening to in this that justifies mockery?

Facts exist, they always exist, they are always consistent. That is why they are called facts. So your point there is anathema of all reason and civilized discussion. or perhaps it is more akin to "facts can be interpreted a lot of different ways" which I would agree with, though that then just goes back into "why do you think it is acceptable to mock people for interpreting facts differently then you?"

You are mocking people because they disagree with you and then trying to validate your actions by justifying that disagreeing with you makes it morally acceptable to be a jerk to those who disagreed. Furthermore, you are mocking an entire group of people for actions of more individual members of that group. Neither is good for any sort of discussion.

Every single factual aspect to GG is poisoned by endless conspiracies misinterpreted facts, its impossible to argue any of it anymore. It got that what its been an angry echo-chamber. I'm fairly certain no one knows what happened.

And I've tried to tell people that some, quite a few people actually, saw things that made us not feel happy about GG. Not unlike the infamous articles that insulted so many. Were I to tell those hurt that they were just being silly and misinformed, think they might get insulted?

Then again, maybe I mock for attention???

Edit: wow I fucked this post up, too tired.

 

[aliengmr]

So the angry mob is coming for you do you:

A) Engage them in civil discourse

B) hide.



This is actually serious BTW

The mob didn't start angry. Didn't become a mob until posts got deleted, people were unfairly banned and all forms of civil discourse were removed or denied.

This is more akin to trying to clean up corruption in a mayor's office, first by talk and discourse, only to be met with martial law in return. The mob coming for them after that doesn't mean they get to play the victim for the repercussions of their own actions. After all, the reason the mob formed was as a result of how they handled things in the first place.

Irrelevant.

Mob IS angry. woulda coulda shoulda Mob still angry.

(not mocking I swear)

 

[runic knight]

You all deserved to be mocked because you absolutely refused to listen. Disagreeing is one thing, refusing to acknowledge reality, quite another.

Don't you see, facts don't exist anymore. Its all one huge mess with sources all over and people who just found out. Its a fucking mess. You cant argue any of it anymore. There aren't any facts, just interpretations from unreliable sources.

I'm not sure why you think a sad sack like me mocking the almighty hashtag of doom is worth responding to anyway. After all, I am just a misunderstood SJWs trying to take your games away.

EDIT:Rex had to go all text wall and shame me, so I'll stop mocking you (unless GG does something worthy of it, Nokia? really?). and maybe I was a bit harsh in tone, *cough* sorry.

"refused to listen"... to who? People telling us not to talk about a topic? Lies and slander made about us? The opinions of people who refused to even argue in good faith, instead ranting and raving about what horrible people we are? Who was it we are not listening to in this that justifies mockery?

Facts exist, they always exist, they are always consistent. That is why they are called facts. So your point there is anathema of all reason and civilized discussion. or perhaps it is more akin to "facts can be interpreted a lot of different ways" which I would agree with, though that then just goes back into "why do you think it is acceptable to mock people for interpreting facts differently then you?"

You are mocking people because they disagree with you and then trying to validate your actions by justifying that disagreeing with you makes it morally acceptable to be a jerk to those who disagreed. Furthermore, you are mocking an entire group of people for actions of more individual members of that group. Neither is good for any sort of discussion.

Every single factual aspect to GG is poisoned by endless conspiracies misinterpreted facts, its impossible to argue any of it anymore. It got that what its been an angry echo-chamber. I'm fairly certain no one knows what happened.

And I've tried to tell people that some, quite a few people actually, saw things that made us not feel happy about GG. Not unlike the infamous articles that insulted so many. Were I to tell those hurt that they were just being silly and misinformed, think they might get insulted?

Then again, maybe I mock for attention???

You are aware that "poisoning the well" is actually a very negate logical fallacy to commit in a discussion, yes?

It depends on if you rationally argued why they were misinformed by revealing the facts that were in direct opposition to what they said, or if you instead resorted to widely dismissing them entirely by insulting them, calling them stereotypes and ignoring what they actually had to say.

Being misinformed is not an insult, it is simple a state of having the wrong information. Now if the people were upset based on that wrong information, then they may feel their feelings are being dismissed when someone corrected that misinformation. Unfortunately that is the price of rational discourse, you sort of have to actually risk being wrong and be willing to accept facts even if you find them uncomfortable.

I don't know why you mock, just that it isn't helping anything.

 

[RexMundane]

I offered that initial question with honest intent, but I remember the thread starter arguing with me that the gamergate mega thread was not the right place to discuss it. They argued that it was too insular and too intimidating to people who have learned to avoid it. And I still agree with that. But seeing how threads related to it are filled with...THIS, I don't think it would have mattered in the end anyways. Sort of impossible to talk about improving the image of something that people can't even agree on the definition or qualities of. And when some people define it with horrible misrepresentation in the first place, it is little wonder they will then reply "you can't make it look better".

...but I feel you can make it look better.

While I think your comment rather unfairly characterizes much of the criticism being offered, and that attacking people for mockery is non-productive for either side of any argument, your point is taken. Presuming your sincere intent to ask what Gamergate can do to be seen as more legitimate across a broader spectrum, I offer an answer from my own perspective, which I feel is a point I've been orbiting around for my last handful of posts.

You all need to stop being angry.

I'm not talking about the harassers, we're all agreed that shit ain't kosher no matter which side it comes from. I'm talking about anger generally. Gamergate doesn't have goals (indeed, any time I've seen the idea of goals suggested it gets shot down as appeasement tactics, and the suggester labeled a shill), it has enemies. Enemies it despises. Enemies that are actively anti-ethics and sub-human. Enemies it attacks with a frothing passion that would be so much more sympathetic if that same energy were applied to something productive.

You think I don't believe there's problems in contemporary games journalism? I'd love if we could have a calm and reasonable discussion about productive changes to editorial policy. I think the Escapist broadly made the right decision in how it handled certain fundamentals of that and could constitute a template it would behoove other sites to follow. Other sites (Kotaku, Polygon, Destructoid, etc.) have also changed their policies as a reaction to what's happening. Yet for a movement that has, I keep hearing, only been about journalistic integrity, I don't see any less self-destructive anger.

I look in the thread and I don't see people critical of Kotaku editorial policy, I see people who want Steven Totilo to suffer. I don't see people who have opinions about what Polygon could do to be more open with potential conflicts of interest, I see people who want Ben Kuchera to be thrown in jail for unspecified criminal charges. I don't even now see people roughly appreciative of The Escapist doing more than anywhere else has to cater to Gamergate, I see people angry that Jim Sterling and Moviebob are allowed to continue to exist.

As I keep saying, again, doing the undeserved favor of ignoring all the associated abuse and sexism charges, what's left at the core of Gamergate doesn't seem to me, or a lot of people, to be much more than undirected anger at (*peeks back into the mega*) well at the moment it seems to be targeting SJWs again, as well as tearing V da Mighty Taco apart for, after supporting you for weeks, daring to question the tactics. I notice too many of the Gamergate regulars have flocked to the Zoe Quinn apology thread to call her a psychotic abusive whore as well, so, you know, there's that.

And all of this cuts to the core of that Gamergate is about. All this anger. All this pure, vile rage. All this petty infighting and screaming hostility. All this paranoid insularity and insane conspiracies. All the allusions to superheroics and battling legions of villains. All this hate, hate, hate, HATE. That's what people see when they look in deeper to Gamergate. Hell, many of it's members proudly identify it as an "angry mob," secure in the belief of it being something to be proud of, like it makes you stronger and powerful, makes you seem smarter or more sympathetic. This is abundantly not the case.

And forget whether you have a "good reason" to be angry. From everyone's perspective, everyone has a "good reason." Doesn't make anger a good thing. Doesn't turn anger into something that can help people. Doesn't make it productive. Even when it's righteous, justifiable, it still only breaks things down instead of building them up. I look in the thread and I see people who don't want to improve games journalism, I see people who want to "burn it all to the ground." And they're controlling the conversation among the "sane" of your number.

Anger is self-fulfilling. It's a fun emotion while you're having it. You end up looking for just more and more shit to get riled up about, and by being riled up, you get targeted by people who are themselves quite angry. Everyone ends up furious and horrible, justifying why everyone is being furious and horrible, looking for more and more people to be horribly furious at. It's why most people are staying out of this mess entirely, and the ones that wade in just see the screaming. And the anger is natural, we're all human. But if there's things to actually accomplish, you won't get them done while you're all angry at anything.

All these are basic things too that any effective movement would have set up at the outset: clear goals, try to keep calm, sensible leadership and reasonable public faces always help. And yet Gamergate has actively resisted all of these attempts (I'm still mystified at people calling Boogie a shill for trying to get y'all focused. Fucking Boogie, man, what the shit?) and to it's increased detriment as it just gets angrier and angrier, more inwardly drawn, paranoid, lashing out at members and allies for not falling in lock-step, and it's all unhealthy. Stop it. Not for our sake, I mean fuck us, right? But for yours.

Alright, I'll take you as sincere in this and see where it goes.

Yes people have anger, and yes it is not always productive. But the anger did not just appear out of thin air and does not just perpetuate itself. It started in response to how the zoe story was handled with censorship and persists as the people being called out of a lack of ethical and professional behavior continue to fan the flame and present themselves not just as solely right, but outright untouchable while they demonize their audience. Mass censorship on the topic, all moderates being dismissed outright, people like boogie and totalbiskit being shot down with waves of hate... It feeds the anger, and it also removes avenues for people to try to actually address their concerns.

It is all well and good to condemn anger for being destructive, but this isn't a trollish flame war that rose out of hate itself, this was the result of other avenues being closed off so all that remained was the reaction of the outraged consumer. And it is important to remember that this is defined as a consumer revolt. These are people that don't feel they have to form a leadership and formal organization (and some actively fear the spirit of the movement will be lost if we did), but rather that because the obvious repeated calls of "we want better journalistic integrity" has been met with not attempts to seek to understand the demand but open disdain and scorn. And that is not even getting into what has happened with the de-facto "leaders" we have already had when it comes to harassment, doxxing and abuse heaved at them. i don't blame anyone for not wanting to be leadership and get that target on their back.

And the same idea of removed avenues sort of applies to why people want Totilo gone rather just for kotaku to change its policy. What good would a policy change do if the people who have been ignoring the concerns and complaints and turning on their audience with outright hostility and disdain are still running the show? It wouldn't do anything and the trust in them is gone to the point that they are seen as the corruption. And there is a point in that. They are the ones who have acted unethically and unprofessionally, and they are the ones who flaunt it as though they are untouchable, suggesting that their disdain for their audience means they can't be trusted to not do it again.

If this was any other field, they would have been fired weeks ago. And that isn't even "I hate them" feeling, that is just a simple truth of the business world.

Finally I have to admit, I find your attempts to dismiss the anger as bad really sort of telling about your perception of gamergate itself. As I said before, the anger is the result of all other avenues being closed. That has not stopped being the case either. Have I missed where Totilo has come forward and asked for people to voice their complaints and addressed concerns? Will I no longer be banned if I post on reddit or 4chan about gamergate? If you want to know why people are angry and starting to be paranoid, look no further then how they are treated. Hell, 4chan is in civil war over this. Sites have been DDoS'd and people are getting doxxed all over. Complaints as consumers of a service resulted in full denial of the discussion. Discussion and questions resulted in outright censorship. What else does a consumer have at this point to try to get the changes they want when the ones they want the changes from not only wont listen to them, but are the problem itself?

Okay, so here I'm going to ask a question about the whole censorship thing, and I swear I'm not just trying to be a dick about this, but it's essentially to do with how I keep seeing this issue being set up.

Why, in your mind, did the censorship happen?

Is it because all these public fora are somehow inherently against discussion? That they're being run by villians who get off on the suffering of others and love nothing more than to quash emergent debate in order to push their preferred agendas dictated to them by DiGRA and the IGF? Helmed by lunatic misandrist SJWs who long ago forswore fealty to their Dark Queen Anita Sarkeesian?

Or, is it possible we're dealing with people who may have overreacted to a situation that maybe looked to be getting awful very quickly. I can't speak to every thread, but some of the ones I saw early on in the #FiveGuys days went from zero-to-**** within moments. Might they have just been trying to stop what they perceived, rightly or wrongly, as the bad part of the internet organizing a lynch mob they didn't want to be associated with?

This is what I mean about the anger being a problem. Whether what they did was right or wrong (and since in the first days it was mainly unsubstantiated rumors about a developer's sex life, so I'm leaning to the "right" side) is a fair debate to have, sure. But do you need villians when well-meaning fuckups will do? Hell, neither you nor I saw all the threads as they saw them at the time, how can we even say whether their reaction was completely un-called for? We're already starting from a presumption that it wasn't just a mistake, but a deliberate attempt to thwart free speech, and we haven't much cause to.

And that's the case for me with all the primary targets of Gamergate now. Is it not enough for them to be mistaken, misled, or just plain wrong? Do you really need them to be malicious conspiratorial supervillians? Even presuming I agreed that Totillo did... whatever he did and it was wrong (for as much as I've been trying to keep abreast of this specific charges are difficult to nail down) why should I think he's incapable of improvement?

EDIT:Rex had to go all text wall and shame me, so I'll stop mocking you (unless GG does something worthy of it, Nokia? really?). and maybe I was a bit harsh in tone, *cough* sorry.

Buddy, I respect you, and know you don't mean harm, but you can't say you'll improve your tone and then keep up with the snarky crap. What I'm trying to say about the anger applies to everyone here, and "he started it" ain't a damn excuse.

captcha: Call Me. Oh captcha, you flirt!

edit: damn my ass it's 2:30 AM over here and I need to get to bed. And to be frank, I'm starting to feel like I oughtta just block the forums here for myself entirely, everything's lost it's damn mind and I'm getting obsessive over it, might be best for me to leave for a while.