Gamers make bad feminists

[SidheKnight]

Though I've always had a theory on sexism in nerd culture. Think about it, how many of us were treated well by females as kids? Or at least, from our point of view, let's not get into dissecting the friend zone here? Exactly. Maybe in the next generation of nerds things'll change, but nerds were not popular with the ladies back in my day, and methinks that some nerds now have grown up thinking that because a few girls didn't respect them, they can disrespect womankind as a whole.

Not right, of course, but I always find it interesting to think about why people do things that they know aren't right.

Funny you mention that.

As a nerd, I've always been treated better by the girls in school than by the guys (except my two friends).

Most of the guys in the class bullied me regularly (being the only nerd), while most girls were nice to me (or at least respectful). Some even pitied me, and told the other guys "leave him alone" when they were bulling me in public (which also proves that teachers are useless in these cases).

Of course the girls in my class didn't date me, I wasn't particularly attractive and my extreme shyness and introvertion didn't help. But if you consider that "bad treatment"...

Well, what I'm saying is that most nerds from my generation backwards it seems will have had largely bad experiences with girls, ranging from rejection to bullying. Of course, it's not bad treatment necessarily, but it could be all too easy to see it that way, perhaps resulting in this culture today.

What generation would that be? I'm 22.

 

[Doclector]

Though I've always had a theory on sexism in nerd culture. Think about it, how many of us were treated well by females as kids? Or at least, from our point of view, let's not get into dissecting the friend zone here? Exactly. Maybe in the next generation of nerds things'll change, but nerds were not popular with the ladies back in my day, and methinks that some nerds now have grown up thinking that because a few girls didn't respect them, they can disrespect womankind as a whole.

Not right, of course, but I always find it interesting to think about why people do things that they know aren't right.

Funny you mention that.

As a nerd, I've always been treated better by the girls in school than by the guys (except my two friends).

Most of the guys in the class bullied me regularly (being the only nerd), while most girls were nice to me (or at least respectful). Some even pitied me, and told the other guys "leave him alone" when they were bulling me in public (which also proves that teachers are useless in these cases).

Of course the girls in my class didn't date me, I wasn't particularly attractive and my extreme shyness and introvertion didn't help. But if you consider that "bad treatment"...

Well, what I'm saying is that most nerds from my generation backwards it seems will have had largely bad experiences with girls, ranging from rejection to bullying. Of course, it's not bad treatment necessarily, but it could be all too easy to see it that way, perhaps resulting in this culture today.

What generation would that be? I'm 22.

I'm 21, and you're extremely lucky. Anyway, that's just a theory. Of course, it could just be because like most people, gamers are largely, terrible. But that doesn't stop my desperate scrabbling for some sort of reason for it.

 

[Ryotknife]

Eeeeeeehhhhhh....

Make a gamertag on xbox live with a very "game-y gurl xD" name, play for about a month, and you'll get a bit more insight. And that's not mentioning all other harassments done behind closed doors on workplaces, homes, etc.

Just saying. Shit happens to this day.

OT; It's been a long time since I've ever actually seen people complain about a freaking trailer that tells nearly nothing about the game. It's just a showpiece, and not the game itself. I find the people 'boycotting' the GAME for its TRAILER are being fairly ridiculous, but it is their time, patience and money so who am I to complain?

I wouldn't change my tone if it were 6 men in latex sexualized and ready to kill one man outside a motel. But then again, mayhap I am of that crowd o' gamers that can't find anything odd about this kind of thing anymore. Because it certainly is odd; just not provoking me in the slightest.

everybody gets treated like shit on xbox live, the only difference is the material they use against you.

it is a cesspool of hatred.

Let nothing else be said; Xbox Live holds its fair share of vile language aimed at just about anyone showing distinctive 'flaws', but the ones getting the most flak are the female community in this day with gender-specific slurs, hate and even death-threats, uncommon for males to such a huge extent. We are far from problem free, which is why we should not discount active harassment of the charts, and especially discounting feminism as fruitless in their grounds, what with the gender-specific harassment.

It would be slightly more okay, and I would agree with you, if girls were merely called "noobs" and "assholes" just like any other player, but it goes far beyond that at times.

you are correct. if a woman is getting harassed on xbox live, most likely it is personal gender specific attacks.

and do you know why? because it works.

This is merely an observation on my part, but in this regard men and women are opposites when it comes to how they handle certain insults. women get very riled up by personal attacks. On the other hand, you could launch personal attacks against me for hours and it wont faze me.

part of the reason is probably because in many guy relationships (friend, brother, co-worker, etc) it is very abusive. Guys insult other guys as a way of greeting one another. another reason why your personal attacks wont work is...well quite frankly my friends have probably called me worse.

However! there is an easy way to get men riled up. attack someone they care about. specifically lewd acts involving female members of their family. while personal attacks wont work on me very well, attacking my family can cause me to fly off the handle.

Think about any movies in which the good guy was intentionally riled up by a bad guy. How was it done?

Now, in this regard women seem to handle these kind of insults much better than men. If i had to give a reason for this duality, i would say it is because of our culture. women are pressured into being pillars of purity (a womanizer is often considered a badge of honor whereas a woman would be called a slut), whereas men are pressured into being protectors of honor.

so yes, I do not really have to worry about any kind of personal attack on XBL because i am a guy. I do however have to be subject to all manner of insults of how X person is going to perform Y sexual act on Z female family member on a constant basis.

 

[LetalisK]

"I have black friends and like rap music, so I can't possibly be racist." Nope, doesn't work for that either.

Seriously? SERIOUSLY?! You're saying I'm sexist? Whether that was your intention or not, that's now it comes across. My point was simply that to make the assumption that feminists hate men would be nonsensical, since reasonable, non-extreme feminists like people for who they are, not their gender. How dare you.

I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant. What he meant was basically "So?" Having many male friends and participating in many male activities does not necessarily exclude someone from also having problems with men, nor does the lack of male friends or participating in male activities imply a problem with men.

I think that's what he meant, anyway.

 

[RJ 17]

Feminist critiques of culture are often great. But, by and large, it's an art form that gamers have far from perfected. Can we please put these stupid reactionary outrage to bed now?

Did...did you REALLY just call Feminism an "art form"? Wow. That's just...just....wow.

Feminism isn't an art, it's an ideology. In theory, it's the fight to give women equal rights and privileges to those that men have. Equal consideration for jobs, equal pay, etc. Though in many cases that I've seen, feminists tend to think Feminism is about establishing female superiority to their male counterparts. "You don't need a man to be happy!" and such are the sentiments that I hear when listening to a feminist. Then there's the fact that in some cases it's a self-defeating ideal. Feminists believe a woman shouldn't be stuck in the kitchen making sammiches for her man, she should be free to choose to be a career woman. Fantastic, I agree with this entirely. Why, then, do feminists get angry and throw insults at women who CHOOSE to fulfill the traditional role of mother and homemaker? It's their choice, that's what makes them happy, why do other feminists not like that?

But getting back to the topic of feminism and game commentary, I think you've overswung things here. I don't think the gaming critics/commentators/bloggers and such that you mentioned were specifically standing up for feminist beliefs. More likely they were expressing their distaste for the fact that game developers STILL insist on putting blatant sex-appeal into their games. Indeed it is just as Jim suggested: "When all else fails: insert breasts." That's the belief of game developers these days, and it seems like most gamers are getting sick of it.

Indeed there's nothing wrong with having sexy women in your game, but when said sexy woman's character equates to "The breasts that the protagonist is trying to save" that's when it gets groan inducingly bad. Gamers like to think of themselves as not being stereotypical. And the stereotype for a gamer is "nerdy, acne-ridden male between the ages of 13 and 28 who is likely single, never leaves his house, and loves pixelated breasts contained in fabric that can laughably be considered clothing."

This is obviously an untrue description, but that doesn't stop game developers from clinging to the belief that if they toss some jiggling breasts into their games, gamers will be more likely to check it out.

 

[Eamar]

I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant. What he meant was basically "So?" Having many male friends and participating in many male activities does not necessarily exclude someone from also having problems with men, nor does the lack of male friends or participating in male activities imply a problem with men.

I think that's what he meant, anyway.

Regardless of whether he meant it or not, you have to admit that drawing a parallel with one of the most well-known phrases people apply to racists is inviting a comparison? If he wanted to make the point that getting on with males =/= not having problems with them, why not just say that? My examples were referring specifically to myself, not to all feminists or all women, so it's a fair assumption his comment was too.

The (perhaps unintentional) implication was that I'm sexist because I'm a feminist. Why on earth he'd choose to pick up on that part of my post I do not know :/

 

[Lopende Paddo]

am i the only one that just saw the trailer, said "that looked awesome,I wonder why agent 47 is going to be hunted by nons " and left it at that? This seems to be less about feminists or the image of women and more about people being pissed because they're image of MR47 has been betrayed.

why must people always derpa derpa derp while there are better topics to talk about when you want to say feminist a lot...

 

[Callate]

I think the number of people who actually decide not to buy the game because of this "controversy" (as opposed to, were never actually going to buy it in the first place) is going to be very small.

I think the number of people who buy the game because of the elements described as being controversial is going to be even smaller, and those who do are going to be disappointed to discover that there's a great deal of planning and re-loading and very little sexy nun death.

There are far better things to get upset about, even within the realm of this medium, than a highly stylized action scene generated to raise awareness of the game. I'm less and less inclined to view this discussion as enlightening or progressive as it continues to bleed onward. If you view the trailer as male-dominance fetish porn, I don't think anything I say is likely to change your mind. If you view the trailer as harmless and fairly typical, likewise. Nor am I likely to change anyone's view that the majority of male gamers are morally and emotionally stunted man-children, or that the feminists want to leech all the fun out of everything, or that Eidos is encouraging a mindset that violence against women is okay.

In the end, this will probably have less relation to the game or its sales than the trailer of, say, Dead Island.

 

[repeating integers]

Lots of things are sexist, but not a lot of things are Hitler.

I would like to announce that this is my new favourite out-of-context quote.

OT: Honestly, better a bad feminist than this douche [http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=87615]. Though obviously, I'd rather choose neither.

 

[Treblaine]

Gwen from Torchwood

River from Firefly

Even Black Widow from Avengers was a strong female character

Buffy (Actually Joss Whdon has said that he is a feminist...sooo)

I'm afraid I didn't catch those )other than Buffy) but what is it about these characters that makes them both good protagonists and truly feminine characters.

They all have realistic skills. Are all strong, they all can exist without men. You can argue that Gwen from Torchwood needs Jack Harkness, but after she learns the ropes, she is a strong female character. As far as games go, I will have to say Fear Effect is the only one that comes to mind.

I do agree that most of this thread is, unfortunately, correct.

Realistic skills, does that mean Sherlock Holmes isn't a good protagonist for his unrealistic intellect? This is a huge problem for games where the creator cannot contrive by writing circumstances for the protagonist to prevail, they must have unrealistic abilities to survive against the challenging odds.

And what do you mean by strength? The problem with significant physical strength is testosterone, it is the single most potent anabolic steroid, it and it's derivatives are the main doping drug used in competitive sports for it gives such a huge physical strength advantage. It is also the SINGLE hormone that makes males into MEN. It is the higher levels of testosterone in men that cause them to have masculine-ised brains, grow male genitals in the womb, and in puberty grow chest hair, and beards, etc. Without testosterone men would be indistinguishable from women except by performing a biopsy of the gonads.

This means men have an inherent strength advantage as compared to women, like steroid using man compared to a typical man. This is also what means men have a shorter life expectancy than women and equivalent for steroid juicers.

But I don't see this as a problem for females as protagonists as this makes them the underdog. The phrase "might is right" is the creed of tyrants the greatest stories told are those that prove that creed wrong.

What are needed are "unrealistic skills". Video games are based upon this, think the bullet-hell shooters where you are one-hit-death yet the big boss you have to get multiple solid hits to defeat them. I think an unrealistic skill would be extreme accuracy while the all-males enemies are spraying bullets everywhere carelessly.

(I don't know what parts of this thread you agree with, there are many diverging views and assessments.)

 

[ElPatron]

Apparently you do since a feminist is about equality, people that think its about female domination are getting their definition from the right wing.

No, I am getting the definition from their mouths.

So far the only feminists I wouldn't be embarrassed to been seen around them have a nice feature: they know when to be quiet. The vocal minority that refuses to shut up gave feminism the meaning we are considering today.

This coming from someone who is dead center on the political spectrum - I took a quiz.
(sounds like the "I am not crazy - my mother had me tested")

sexualizes women in a bad way.

Subjective. What they did is not any different from what other forms of media are doing. I don't see how can something be sexualized in a bad way if I can find several women in this planet willing to dress as slutty nuns.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Gwen from Torchwood

River from Firefly

Even Black Widow from Avengers was a strong female character

Buffy (Actually Joss Whdon has said that he is a feminist...sooo)

I'm afraid I didn't catch those )other than Buffy) but what is it about these characters that makes them both good protagonists and truly feminine characters.

They all have realistic skills. Are all strong, they all can exist without men. You can argue that Gwen from Torchwood needs Jack Harkness, but after she learns the ropes, she is a strong female character. As far as games go, I will have to say Fear Effect is the only one that comes to mind.

I do agree that most of this thread is, unfortunately, correct.

Realistic skills, does that mean Sherlock Holmes isn't a good protagonist for his unrealistic intellect? This is a huge problem for games where the creator cannot contrive by writing circumstances for the protagonist to prevail, they must have unrealistic abilities to survive against the challenging odds.

And what do you mean by strength? The problem with significant physical strength is testosterone, it is the single most potent anabolic steroid, it and it's derivatives are the main doping drug used in competitive sports for it gives such a huge physical strength advantage. It is also the SINGLE hormone that makes males into MEN. It is the higher levels of testosterone in men that cause them to have masculine-ised brains, grow male genitals in the womb, and in puberty grow chest hair, and beards, etc. Without testosterone men would be indistinguishable from women except by performing a biopsy of the gonads.

This means men have an inherent strength advantage as compared to women, like steroid using man compared to a typical man. This is also what means men have a shorter life expectancy than women and equivalent for steroid juicers.

But I don't see this as a problem for females as protagonists as this makes them the underdog. The phrase "might is right" is the creed of tyrants the greatest stories told are those that prove that creed wrong.

What are needed are "unrealistic skills". Video games are based upon this, think the bullet-hell shooters where you are one-hit-death yet the big boss you have to get multiple solid hits to defeat them. I think an unrealistic skill would be extreme accuracy while the all-males enemies are spraying bullets everywhere carelessly.

(I don't know what parts of this thread you agree with, there are many diverging views and assessments.)

I think he means strong in reference to their personality traits, i.e. determined, willful, confident, etc. You have a point on realistic skills, but I would substitute the word believable, rather than realistic. Sherlock Holmes is unrealistically smart, but it's written in such a way that we believe that with time and practice we could eventually emulate him. I think this is in contrast to some of the really lazy ways of making a female character "strong," which is just by making her incredibly skilled at whatever she does.

 

[LiquidGrape]

[Edit:] On second thought, I'm not up for another spat.

 

[Worgen]

Apparently you do since a feminist is about equality, people that think its about female domination are getting their definition from the right wing.

No, I am getting the definition from their mouths.

So far the only feminists I wouldn't be embarrassed to been seen around them have a nice feature: they know when to be quiet. The vocal minority that refuses to shut up gave feminism the meaning we are considering today.

This coming from someone who is dead center on the political spectrum - I took a quiz.
(sounds like the "I am not crazy - my mother had me tested")

sexualizes women in a bad way.

Subjective. What they did is not any different from what other forms of media are doing. I don't see how can something be sexualized in a bad way if I can find several women in this planet willing to dress as slutty nuns.

Then they got their definition from a stupid place like I said. Over and over again.

 

[Ledan]

What you've taken are tweets. They're soundbites wihtout sufficient context or elaboration to draw commentary without that being perceived as trollish or 'reactive'.

I don't think there is ever an appropriate context for calling somebody a ****.

Well.. .if someone is being a ****, then it's rather appropriate to call them on it.
As in: the word **** has more meanings than a part of a woman's body. Just like asshole and douche also mean specific things, other than their literal meaning.

OT:
I disagree. I wouldn't call jim sterling a feminist.

 

[ElPatron]

Then they got their definition from a stupid place like I said. Over and over again.

Sorry, my post was a mess.

I meant to say that I get my definition for "feminism" from the vocal minority of feminists. It's their own stupidity that makes the whole feminism look bad, not the right wing.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Yes, I mean the primary face of feminism. Of course you can point to examples of bad "feminism." Because there are loud, idiot minorities in every single group of human beings on the planet. You can't write off all feminists as manhaters in the same way you can't write off all Republicans as racist fundies, or all Muslims as terrorists. Or all men as wife-beaters. Sheesh.

And the definition of "primary face" is also vague there, which doesn't really move the conversation to where it's been.

Personally, I am all for anyone being able to do whatever it is that they want to do, without stigma (within reason of course, drug dealers are bad that sort of thing). However, this is a rather simplistic look at feminism, because most feminists that I know of and all feminist literature that I've read speaks loads about the socialization of women to fit certain gender roles. However, to me this is not much of an issue as long as people do what they want. Those who worry about socialization however, worry greatly about WHY people want the things they do, and draw the conclusion that most all of it is a social construct. Do I agree with this? No, I recognize that the genders are different and we're not sure why and so I don't think we should really worry about it as long as everyone can do what they want and is happy. Is it part of feminism? Maybe, maybe not. There's no definitive book on feminism that all feminists must agree to a hundred percent. There's also no single organization that's taken as definitive of having their actions represent the entire group.

However, some of your other examples do have those kinds of things, specifically Republicans. They have an official group that acts on their behalf that they willingly associate themselves with. If they said they were conservative that would be a different matter.

I'm of the opinion that feminism as a movement has become a little confused, due to the lack of specific goals. Something that they can all unite behind and say "we all want this, this is what defines us." I would compare it to supporters for LGBT rights, who are all united by the agreement over equal marriage rights. Once that is no longer an issue, then we'll see whether the movement fractures or not.

 

[Legion]

My only dislike of the Hitman trailer is how unnecessary the sexy outfits are. They dress like normal nuns, but choose to dress like dominatrices to fight. Why? What does it add?

The fact that he beats them up doesn't mean much to me, they were trying to murder him, it's no different from if they were men or robots.

 

[Worgen]

Then they got their definition from a stupid place like I said. Over and over again.

Sorry, my post was a mess.

I meant to say that I get my definition for "feminism" from the vocal minority of feminists. It's their own stupidity that makes the whole feminism look bad, not the right wing.

The funny thing is they are still getting it from the right wing, the right wing in this country is very good at changing the meaning of words, for awhile they turned liberal into a four letter word (right now they are doing it to moderate, the election ads around here are hilarious and creepy), just like they have done a very good job of saying all feminists are bra burning lesbians who hate men and want a women ruled world.