Gamers make bad feminists

[Kahunaburger]

I like when people notice that the only thing coming from their mouths is shit when they are arguing and hot-headed.

EDIT: sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist

Do I win the argument now?

Above: irony.

the right wing in this country is very good at changing the meaning of words, for awhile they turned liberal into a four letter word (right now they are doing it to moderate, the election ads around here are hilarious and creepy), just like they have done a very good job of saying all feminists are bra burning lesbians who hate men and want a women ruled world.

Yeah, it never fails to amaze me how many otherwise rational people uncritically repeat Rush Limbaugh's verbal diarrhea without realizing it.

 

[ElPatron]

I like when people notice that the only thing coming from their mouths is shit when they are arguing and hot-headed.

EDIT: sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist

Do I win the argument now?

Above: irony.

Geez, man. I was hoping nobody would get the satire and become offended.

The funny thing is they are still getting it from the right wing, the right wing in this country is very good at changing the meaning of words

I am a friggin' European. Everything is left wing, even the right wing. Which is bull to a "centrist" like me.

I am not getting my definition from anywhere else, I am just prone to hear the loud bullshit some people say over the reasonable voices.

 

[Eamar]

And the definition of "primary face" is also vague there, which doesn't really move the conversation to where it's been.

Ok, first off let me acknowledge that you raise some very interesting points in your post which I'm not going to be able to answer fully, if only for fear of derailing the thread even more than it already has been. So my apologies in advance.

Personally, I am all for anyone being able to do whatever it is that they want to do, without stigma (within reason of course, drug dealers are bad that sort of thing). However, this is a rather simplistic look at feminism, because most feminists that I know of and all feminist literature that I've read speaks loads about the socialization of women to fit certain gender roles. However, to me this is not much of an issue as long as people do what they want. Those who worry about socialization however, worry greatly about WHY people want the things they do, and draw the conclusion that most all of it is a social construct. Do I agree with this? No, I recognize that the genders are different and we're not sure why and so I don't think we should really worry about it as long as everyone can do what they want and is happy.

While I agree with the sentiment that people should do what they want (within reason), I don't think we should write off socialization entirely. That's not to say I don't think any women should conform to societal expectations if that's who she is and what she wants, but I do think it's something that needs confronting. My main reason for this is that, as a woman who does not meet these expectations at all, it has been an issue for me, and for other women who find themselves in the same situation. I've been criticised for "not being feminine" and, when I reveal that I have no desire to have children (not due to abuse or logical reason or anything, I just plain do not want babies) I'm either patronised or treated like a freak. I prefer my body to be somewhat muscular, and people have commented on that in a negative way when I've been in the gym. Granted, these things are not exactly life or death, but they are damned frustrating and can be hurtful. So naturally I'd like there to be a greater understanding of the origins of socialization and acceptance of women who don't feel comfortable in the traditionally "female" role. Of course, I'd also like the same to be true for men.

That's just my personal take on it, I'm aware that there is much, much more to be said on the matter.

Is it part of feminism? Maybe, maybe not. There's no definitive book on feminism that all feminists must agree to a hundred percent. There's also no single organization that's taken as definitive of having their actions represent the entire group.

That's true, but the same can be said of practically any group, even those that do have a definitive book or code. Without wishing to turn this into a religious debate, just look at the massive variation in Christian denominations. While I agree that no group can be taken as wholly representative of feminism, my point was that we certainly shouldn't be taking the most extreme groups as representative, as so many seem to do. Just mentioning the word "feminism" (and not just on the internet) opens a huge can of worms largely based on people's perceptions or experiences of the extremists.

However, some of your other examples do have those kinds of things, specifically Republicans. They have an official group that acts on their behalf that they willingly associate themselves with. If they said they were conservative that would be a different matter.

That's true of the Republican Party, but I meant it more generally. And even though there's an official party, from what I've seen (I'm British, so I'm not too clear on the intricacies) there's still a huge amount of variety within that group, as there is for any political party.

I'm of the opinion that feminism as a movement has become a little confused, due to the lack of specific goals. Something that they can all unite behind and say "we all want this, this is what defines us." I would compare it to supporters for LGBT rights, who are all united by the agreement over equal marriage rights. Once that is no longer an issue, then we'll see whether the movement fractures or not.

Potentially true, though I'd argue that every political/social movement splits. As with political parties, it's seeing which bits survive that's the interesting part.

As a side note, there's quite a lot more to the LGBT rights movement than gay marriage, but I see your point.

 

[Ryotknife]

I like when people notice that the only thing coming from their mouths is shit when they are arguing and hot-headed.

EDIT: sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist

Do I win the argument now?

Above: irony.

Geez, man. I was hoping nobody would get the satire and become offended.

The funny thing is they are still getting it from the right wing, the right wing in this country is very good at changing the meaning of words

I am a friggin' European. Everything is left wing, even the right wing. Which is bull to a "centrist" like me.

I am not getting my definition from anywhere else, I am just prone to hear the loud bullshit some people say over the reasonable voices.

if that is how you feel, dont come to the USA then (at least for the next 4 years).

the moderates on both sides are being cannibalized by the extremes from within their own party, although the right wing is a bit worse in this regard.

even though i have slight republican leanings, quite honestly i will probably vote for Obama (democrat) even though i disagree with some of his goals and his actions. mostly because the far right wing is bat -#$%^ crazy and scares the hell out of me now. They have always been a little coo coo, but they were for the most part locked up tight along with their liberal cousins. now the inmates are running the asylum.

 

[Worgen]

I like when people notice that the only thing coming from their mouths is shit when they are arguing and hot-headed.

EDIT: sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist

Do I win the argument now?

Above: irony.

Geez, man. I was hoping nobody would get the satire and become offended.

The funny thing is they are still getting it from the right wing, the right wing in this country is very good at changing the meaning of words

I am a friggin' European. Everything is left wing, even the right wing. Which is bull to a "centrist" like me.

I am not getting my definition from anywhere else, I am just prone to hear the loud bullshit some people say over the reasonable voices.

Thats how good they are at redefining words, it even stretches international borders.

 

[Stripes]

Feminist is such a stupid word, what it stands for is equality yet is worded to only apply to women as if they are the only ones who have problems and can fight for them. Anyway, How dare you try and label the entirety of gamers based of off the reaction of a few. This is made worse by the fact that you ignored everyone who criticised the trailer (sexualization sure but not objectification, the women are competent and dont get treated differently from men and the trailer is marketing being marketing, not a good example of the hitman series or of the studios attitudes) for percieved sexism. You have decided to roll in on your high horse and tell us we are all sexist idiots. You quote two people as proof. Two people apparently speak for the everyone gamer. What a joke. Gamers are not inherently, or largely, sexist and you are the one being juvenile here.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I like when people notice that the only thing coming from their mouths is shit when they are arguing and hot-headed.

EDIT: sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist sexist

Do I win the argument now?

Above: irony.

Geez, man. I was hoping nobody would get the satire and become offended.

The irony being you, in particular, discussing other people being hot-headed and arguing badly. Didn't you go on some rant over how it's okay to call women "sluts" because cheating military spouses exist like, last week?

 

[ElPatron]

Thats how good they are at redefining words, it even stretches international borders.

So you are implying that I have brainwashed by propaganda I have never seen?

Bool cory, sro.

even though i have slight republican leanings, quite honestly i will probably vote for Obama (democrat) even though i disagree with some of his goals and his actions. mostly because the far right wing is bat -#$%^ crazy and scares the hell out of me now. They have always been a little coo coo, but they were for the most part locked up tight along with their liberal cousins. now the inmates are running the asylum.

I understand that feel. Personally I can't stand Obama, but from the little I have read I can't trust (R) right now. I kinda like Ron Paul, though.

 

[Stripes]

My only dislike of the Hitman trailer is how unnecessary the sexist outfits are. They dress like normal nuns, but choose to dress like dominatrices to fight. Why? What does it add?

The fact that he beats them up doesn't mean much to me, they were trying to murder him, it's no different from if they were men or robots.

I recognize that there wa sclear objectification going on in the trailer, though some people have told me its meant to be ugly as part of the world I dont know enough to comment, you seem to say sexualizasion is the same as objectification. Do you mean this or does sexualization need to have a point to be there?

 

[General Vagueness]

Feminist critiques of culture are often great. But, by and large, it's an art form that gamers have far from perfected. Can we please put these stupid reactionary outrage to bed now?

Feminist critiques of culture are often terrible, and by and large they're something that gamers shouldn't mess with because they've never known the touch of a woman. Can we please put this stupid outrage to bed now?

fixed

It's not just gamers, people in general just feel the need to make social issues out of everything these days. I blame social media.

another reason to detest social media and social networking and social networking sites and services? I'll take it

 

[ElPatron]

The irony being you, in particular, discussing other people being hot-headed and arguing badly.

>implying I wasn't ridiculing the argument
>implying that arguing badly is the same thing as being a hot-headed person spitting bullshit like "all sex is rape" that everyone will quote from there on

Didn't you go on some rant over how it's okay to call women "sluts" because cheating military spouses exist like, last week?

Why is it not okay to call someone a "slut" when they are a slut? Is it worse than a man being insulted for cheating?

What you said in that post was "it's okay to call women sluts" which implies that I said that it's okay to call ALL women sluts, when that is obviously not the case.

If you're going to quote mine me at least do it right, it's not that hard.

 

[Eamar]

Feminist is such a stupid word, what it stands for is equality yet is worded to only apply to women as if they are the only ones who have problems and can fight for them.

While I agree that nowadays "feminism" might not be the first choice of word, you do have to bear in mind that the term was coined at a time when women who were unhappy with being stay-at-home mothers and housewives were literally treated as mentally ill... It was considerably more appropriate then. And we all know how hard it can be to change established terminology.

Just wanted to point that out

 

[ShadowStar42]

The irony is that I actually thought the ad for Hitman was kind of pro-women as it actually showed women being brutally murdered in the same way men are brutally murdered in these kind of trailers. It's the first time I've seen women being killed in such an extreme manner in a game trailer, so equality for everyone!

The skin-tight clothes are kind of silly but they had to wear something special, it wouldn't be interesting at all if they wore regular clothes, something would just seem off. Not that I am for the objectivization of the female body, but I think it's better in the struggle for equality that women are dressed as whatever the artists want them to wear. If we want total equality then we shouldn't even consider adjusting something in a game just because someone might find it offensive. Note; this does not mean that I am a sexist, I am all for equality, I just think that true equality will exist when people completely stop thinking about what's sexist and what's not.

The problem is they weren't being killed in the same way as men would be. Do you really think you would have viewed that trailer the same way if it was a group of men dressed as priests who suddenly took off their clothes and fought wearing bicycle shorts?

Note; people who aren't sexist don't have the tell people that, similar to how people who aren't racists don't have to tell people that they have a black friend.

 

[Ryotknife]

Thats how good they are at redefining words, it even stretches international borders.

So you are implying that I have brainwashed by propaganda I have never seen?

Bool cory, sro.

even though i have slight republican leanings, quite honestly i will probably vote for Obama (democrat) even though i disagree with some of his goals and his actions. mostly because the far right wing is bat -#$%^ crazy and scares the hell out of me now. They have always been a little coo coo, but they were for the most part locked up tight along with their liberal cousins. now the inmates are running the asylum.

I understand that feel. Personally I can't stand Obama, but from the little I have read I can't trust (R) right now. I kinda like Ron Paul, though.

i dislike RP ideas the most out of all of the candidates, but i respect him the most. which is kinda weird. I got the impression from him that he is not saying things just to get votes but because he honestly believed it would work whereas your typical politician says whatever he needs to to get votes.

i guess it comes down to what do you think is more important in a candidate. someone whose heart is in the right place or someone with the "right" ideas.

 

[Ryotknife]

The irony is that I actually thought the ad for Hitman was kind of pro-women as it actually showed women being brutally murdered in the same way men are brutally murdered in these kind of trailers. It's the first time I've seen women being killed in such an extreme manner in a game trailer, so equality for everyone!

The skin-tight clothes are kind of silly but they had to wear something special, it wouldn't be interesting at all if they wore regular clothes, something would just seem off. Not that I am for the objectivization of the female body, but I think it's better in the struggle for equality that women are dressed as whatever the artists want them to wear. If we want total equality then we shouldn't even consider adjusting something in a game just because someone might find it offensive. Note; this does not mean that I am a sexist, I am all for equality, I just think that true equality will exist when people completely stop thinking about what's sexist and what's not.

The problem is they weren't being killed in the same way as men would be. Do you really think you would have viewed that trailer the same way if it was a group of men dressed as priests who suddenly took off their clothes and fought wearing bicycle shorts?

Note; people who aren't sexist don't have the tell people that, similar to how people who aren't racists don't have to tell people that they have a black friend.

what if the men dressed up in skin tight supervillain suits?

 

[Kahunaburger]

The irony being you, in particular, discussing other people being hot-headed and arguing badly.

>implying I wasn't ridiculing the argument
>implying that arguing badly is the same thing as being a hot-headed person spitting bullshit like "all sex is rape" that everyone will quote from there on

Didn't you go on some rant over how it's okay to call women "sluts" because cheating military spouses exist like, last week?

Why is it not okay to call someone a "slut" when they are a slut? Is it worse than a man being insulted for cheating?

What you said in that post was "it's okay to call women sluts" which implies that I said that it's okay to call ALL women sluts, when that is obviously not the case.

If you're going to quote mine me at least do it right, it's not that hard.

My point exactly.

The problem is they weren't being killed in the same way as men would be. Do you really think you would have viewed that trailer the same way if it was a group of men dressed as priests who suddenly took off their clothes and fought wearing bicycle shorts?

I would pay money to see an E3 audience react to a trailer spending 20 seconds focusing on the butts of men in tight leather.

 

[Eamar]

I would pay money to see an E3 audience react to a trailer spending 20 seconds focusing on the butts of men in tight leather.

Oh god yes, this. So much. If I ever become CEO of a game developing company (unlikely since I'm not actively pursuing that line of employment, but still ) I promise I will do this XD

 

[ElPatron]

My point exactly.

ElPatron is confused.
It's supper effective.

Alright, you win. Take the buzzer, leave the bike.

The problem is they weren't being killed in the same way as men would be.

Of course not, all men are powerful creatures and they will just shrug off .45 ACP slugs right in the chest.

There is a difference between how a fight scene was directed and how people die in it. Obviously fight scenes have to be tailored for men and women. You wouldn't make a woman puke and moan on the ground after a reasonably strong kick applied to the crotch. This fight included women in "femdom" attire. Somehow I could see the same fight happening with a scantily clad male motorcycle gang.

In fact, I thought that the "there should be trailers like those with men" posts were ridiculous, now I want to watch one.

 

[sanquin]

I said women wanting to get special treatment so it feels like they're equal.

Yes, us feminists want special treatment so we can feel like we're equal rather than, say, actually being equal.

YOU as a feminist maybe not. But you don't speak for all feminists.

 

[sanquin]

While I agree that gamers generally make bad feminists (speaking as a woman myself) I do agree with them this time. Those assassins dressed up in cliché latex porn nun costumes with buy guns. And then all of them getting beaten up by a single man. And then how some of the camera angles were done in the trailer...it's very clearly the BAD form of sexualization.

And then there's games like Bayonetta, where I think it's actually a good quality of the game. A good form of sexualizaiton. Then there's also games like DoA. I don't have a problem with such games as well, as they specifically do it for the sexy girls in bikini's and such.

But in the new Hitman? Seriously? It's just...wrong. It doesn't fit, betrays what the hitman series is about and sexualizes women in a bad way.

I agree sexualization has it's place, several males have the fantasy of wanting to be the guy adored by every chick, or living in a society where leather clad goddesses are the norm and games like Bayonetta and most fighting games are great for that, even the Hitman trailer is so over the top that it's obvious sex for sales and not the down trotting of women. I think a bigger problem is with a game like Star War: Old republic that apparently doesn't even let you make a fat female character only a fat male.

I consider them equally bad. "Let's sexuality women to sell our game!" and "Let's not allow 'ugly' women in our game!" are about equal to me.