Gamers make bad feminists

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Darkmantle

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Worgen said:
Darkmantle said:
Worgen said:
sanquin said:
Worgen said:
Sounds like someone is getting their definitions from fox news. Actually feminism is about equality, people that say its about female dominance are getting their definition from right wing idiots who seek to discredit it.
I'm getting my definitions from personal experience. The feminists and equalists I've met are as I've described them. Plus, here in the Netherlands we don't really have those right wing idiots you guys have in America.
Apparently you do since a feminist is about equality, people that think its about female domination are getting their definition from the right wing.
you know that lady who opened the first woman's shelter? That brave feminist icon?
yeah her, did you know she also wanted to open a man's shelter shortly after?
do you know who stopped her?
the feminist movement.
I wish I was kidding bud, don't count the other side of the argument out withour debating it.
You cite a story without providing any other information about it, you need to work on that. Plus I never said that everyone who called themself a feminist wasn't a moron or jackass, I just said the ones that are morons or jackasses aren't really feminists. Also, there is a group who call themselves the feminists who do want to see women get better treatment then anyone else but these are't feminists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feminists
And you sir, are exhibiting alarming traits of "no true scotsman" fallacy. Well would you like some more info? how about some feminist organizations. Men Against Violence Against Women (MAVAW) uses faulty domestic violence stats that trivialize domestic violence against men. IE "90-95 of domestic violence victims are woman" (which is an outright lie in this day and age, as the numbers are much closer to a 55/45 split). So while they support the opening of woman's shelters, they do not support the opening of men's shelters as their bad stats say it isn't an issue.

This is another in a long line of these incidents, which leads right back to the story I mentioned before. It's the same bullshit now that it was then, downplaying male abuse victims while overplaying female abuse victims. Want to see this on action? links down below.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/07/feminism-domestic-violence-men

If the empirical research is correct in suggesting that between a quarter and half of all domestic violence victims are men, a question follows: why has women's domestic violence towards men been unreported for so long, and what has changed in the last five years to make it more visible?

One reason may be the feminist movement. Feminism took up the cause of domestic abuse of women in the 1970s, with the....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.

Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have fewer refuges ...
 

sanquin

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Mortai Gravesend said:
Does better than you do probably. What kind of criticism is that when you're just claiming things on your own authority? At least she is a feminist speaking for them instead of some guy with no authority on behalf of any feminists, whole she's got at least one.
I'm not a guy, I'm a girl. Also, I'm all for equal rights. Real equal rights, which also means equal obligations. And seeing how the feminists I've met so far all pretty much only wanted the rights and not the obligations, I do not want to call myself a feminist.
 

Shadie777

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Eamar said:
Stripes said:
Feminist is such a stupid word, what it stands for is equality yet is worded to only apply to women as if they are the only ones who have problems and can fight for them.
While I agree that nowadays "feminism" might not be the first choice of word, you do have to bear in mind that the term was coined at a time when women who were unhappy with being stay-at-home mothers and housewives were literally treated as mentally ill... It was considerably more appropriate then. And we all know how hard it can be to change established terminology.

Just wanted to point that out :)
I think the term feminism is fine, the problem is that some people don't identify that feminism is a sub-set of egalitarianism (a term which is hardly used nowadays). In the eyes of many people, feminism has become the face for the fight against inequality instead of egalitarianism.

Feminism is a group fighting for equality for a single group of people. Yes, fighting inequality on on side does help make society better but it still does not change the fact that it is for a specific demographic. This is why I get frustrated when people treat "feminism" like the face of equality. It should not be, it is only a sub-set of "egalitarianism", which does not have a specific demographic.

I think that "feminism" being the face of equality hurts us in the long run because of the fact that it does not bring up an image of a group fighting for everyone's rights. In fact, I would argue that having feminism as the face of equality hurts the fight against certain injustices that face some men because of the bias the group has.

This is why I like identifying myself as an egalitarian, I am effectively supporting equality in general.

...I hope I explained my position properly. I'm not sure if what I typed looks right.
 

Eamar

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sanquin said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
Does better than you do probably. What kind of criticism is that when you're just claiming things on your own authority? At least she is a feminist speaking for them instead of some guy with no authority on behalf of any feminists, whole she's got at least one.
I'm not a guy, I'm a girl. Also, I'm all for equal rights. Real equal rights, which also means equal obligations. And seeing how the feminists I've met so far all pretty much only wanted the rights and not the obligations, I do not want to call myself a feminist.
As a feminist myself, I'd be genuinely interested to hear what obligations the ones you've met don't want. Not trying to be snarky or anything, I'd honestly like to know :)
 

Eamar

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Shadie777 said:
I think the term feminism is fine, the problem is that some people don't identify that feminism is a sub-set of egalitarianism (a term which is hardly used nowadays). In the eyes of many people, feminism has become the face for the fight against inequality instead of egalitarianism.

Feminism is a group fighting for equality for a single group of people. Yes, fighting inequality on on side does help make society better but it still does not change the fact that it is for a specific demographic. This is why I get frustrated when people treat "feminism" like the face of equality. It should not be, it is only a sub-set of "egalitarianism", which does not have a specific demographic.

I think that "feminism" being the face of equality hurts us in the long run because of the fact that it does not bring up an image of a group fighting for everyone's rights. In fact, I would argue that having feminism as the face of equality hurts the fight against certain injustices that face some men because of the bias the group has.

This is why I like identifying myself as an egalitarian, I am effectively supporting equality in general.

...I hope I explained my position properly. I'm not sure if what I typed looks right.
You're quite right, of course. Feminism is focused on problems faced by women, though of course that doesn't mean that feminists don't care about other things as well.

As for the "face of equality" thing, I guess we just have to work with what we have for now. In my (admittedly limited) experience, which is centred around UK universities, there's a much more general emphasis on "equal opportunities" or just general "equality." That's meant to include all sorts of things, gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, class, disability... it's about promoting equality for everyone (including straight, white, middle class males).

There are also separate feminist/LGBT/anything else you care to mention movements. It seems to work well. Hopefully this will become more the norm outside universities as well in the near future.

EDIT: fixed quote
 

Pearwood

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Oh christ we're not on this again are we? We're still recovering from all the stupidity in the last feminism thread.
 
Mar 25, 2010
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Lilani said:
Khanht Cope said:
What you've taken are tweets. They're soundbites wihtout sufficient context or elaboration to draw commentary without that being perceived as trollish or 'reactive'.
I don't think there is ever an appropriate context for calling somebody a ****.
Is there really an appropriate context to call anyone a name? Yeah, I think there is. They're just words for angry people to call people there angry at. I think Hitler was a ****. True story.
I think Stalin was a dick. They're about equivalent to each other...
 
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Eamar said:
sanquin said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
Does better than you do probably. What kind of criticism is that when you're just claiming things on your own authority? At least she is a feminist speaking for them instead of some guy with no authority on behalf of any feminists, whole she's got at least one.
I'm not a guy, I'm a girl. Also, I'm all for equal rights. Real equal rights, which also means equal obligations. And seeing how the feminists I've met so far all pretty much only wanted the rights and not the obligations, I do not want to call myself a feminist.
As a feminist myself, I'd be genuinely interested to hear what obligations the ones you've met don't want. Not trying to be snarky or anything, I'd honestly like to know :)
I just want to say before she answers/doesn't answer, is that a lot of people have different views of what feminism is, and that whoever probably wanted no obligations is probably someone claiming to be one, but isn't one under your definition. There are a lot of idiots in the world, including ones who would do something like he said and hide it under the actually-righteous cause of feminism. Just sayin'
 

Eamar

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Jeffrey Crall said:
Eamar said:
sanquin said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
Does better than you do probably. What kind of criticism is that when you're just claiming things on your own authority? At least she is a feminist speaking for them instead of some guy with no authority on behalf of any feminists, whole she's got at least one.
I'm not a guy, I'm a girl. Also, I'm all for equal rights. Real equal rights, which also means equal obligations. And seeing how the feminists I've met so far all pretty much only wanted the rights and not the obligations, I do not want to call myself a feminist.
As a feminist myself, I'd be genuinely interested to hear what obligations the ones you've met don't want. Not trying to be snarky or anything, I'd honestly like to know :)
I just want to say before she answers/doesn't answer, is that a lot of people have different views of what feminism is, and that whoever probably wanted no obligations is probably someone claiming to be one, but isn't one under your definition. There are a lot of idiots in the world, including ones who would do something like he said and hide it under the actually-righteous cause of feminism. Just sayin'
I'm well aware of that (I've been defending feminism against the "bad" examples people have encountered throughout this thread). I just wanted to see how someone would justify themselves in this sort of situation. That and I'm genuinely interested to hear what these unwanted obligations are, since right now I cannot imagine what they might be...
 

sanquin

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Eamar said:
As a feminist myself, I'd be genuinely interested to hear what obligations the ones you've met don't want. Not trying to be snarky or anything, I'd honestly like to know :)
Just small things mostly. Like being 'so' offended when a girl gets hit by a guy. But when a girl then hits a girl it's 'girl power'. Or outright expecting a man to pay for any and all bills when they're together, and getting angry otherwise. Or screaming 'sexist' when a guy says 'geez, you're a terrible driver' while she almost just hit several other cars on the road.

But also larger things. One of the women where I used to work complained about being paid less than a guy, saying that 'he was doing the same job' as her. Which he wasn't. 1: He had a higher education. 2: His job consisted of the main administrative work while she mostly did the checking for mistakes and did the excess work of the man.

Those are the 'feminists' I see. You can say 'they're not feminists!' all you want, but when said women proclaim themselves to be feminists, and keep spouting their unfair 'equal rights' bullshit, they're feminists to me.
 

sanquin

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Mortai Gravesend said:
I didn't mean male, I wasn't thinking of your gender when I said it, but okay.

But anyway, that doesn't really address the thing I pointed out. You say that they don't want it, I say they do from the feminists I've met.
All feminists 'claim' to want equal rights. That's their big thing. But under the surface most I've met want to have special privileges rather than actual equal rights.

For one, I've yet to hear a single feminist agree with me that if a man accidentally gets a woman pregnant, he should not automatically pay child support. Sure, if he had unprotected sex. It wasn't even really an accident then, imo. But with a condom but it broke, and the woman refuses to have an abortion/morning after pill? Then it's not the man's responsibility in my opinion.

I have also yet to hear a feminist support men getting maternity leave if they want it. And most (not all) feminists I've met see male rape victims as a non-issue.
 

Fumbles

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Treblaine said:
Fumbles said:
Treblaine said:
Fumbles said:
Gwen from Torchwood

River from Firefly

Even Black Widow from Avengers was a strong female character

Buffy (Actually Joss Whdon has said that he is a feminist...sooo)
I'm afraid I didn't catch those )other than Buffy) but what is it about these characters that makes them both good protagonists and truly feminine characters.
They all have realistic skills. Are all strong, they all can exist without men. You can argue that Gwen from Torchwood needs Jack Harkness, but after she learns the ropes, she is a strong female character. As far as games go, I will have to say Fear Effect is the only one that comes to mind.

I do agree that most of this thread is, unfortunately, correct.
T

Realistic skills, does that mean Sherlock Holmes isn't a good protagonist for his unrealistic intellect? This is a huge problem for games where the creator cannot contrive by writing circumstances for the protagonist to prevail, they must have unrealistic abilities to survive against the challenging odds.

And what do you mean by strength? The problem with significant physical strength is testosterone, it is the single most potent anabolic steroid, it and it's derivatives are the main doping drug used in competitive sports for it gives such a huge physical strength advantage. It is also the SINGLE hormone that makes males into MEN. It is the higher levels of testosterone in men that cause them to have masculine-ised brains, grow male genitals in the womb, and in puberty grow chest hair, and beards, etc. Without testosterone men would be indistinguishable from women except by performing a biopsy of the gonads.

This means men have an inherent strength advantage as compared to women, like steroid using man compared to a typical man. This is also what means men have a shorter life expectancy than women and equivalent for steroid juicers.

But I don't see this as a problem for females as protagonists as this makes them the underdog. The phrase "might is right" is the creed of tyrants the greatest stories told are those that prove that creed wrong.

What are needed are "unrealistic skills". Video games are based upon this, think the bullet-hell shooters where you are one-hit-death yet the big boss you have to get multiple solid hits to defeat them. I think an unrealistic skill would be extreme accuracy while the all-males enemies are spraying bullets everywhere carelessly.

(I don't know what parts of this thread you agree with, there are many diverging views and assessments.)
Thank You. I wish I could shake your hand.
 

That_Sneaky_Camper

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I always loved this definition of feminism:

"Feminism is the idea that you can solve the equality problem between genders by simply focusing on the issues of just one gender. Feminism is not true equality."

We should be about human rights, not female rights, humanism is far superior to feminism as it isn't exclusive.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Zappanale said:
Can we please put these stupid reactionary outrage to bed now?
I wish, I saw the hitman trailer and thought "eh". Apparently the proper reaction is to go on a tirade about how this is another example of sexism in the industry. -_-
 

Terminal Blue

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Threads like this make me want to take a drill to my frontal lobe..

Anyway, since this is clearly some people's first time. Hello, and welcome to the magical world of Feminism. Why is it called feminism? Well, let's find out!

The prefix 'fem' refers to femininity, from the latin 'femina'. Both referring to the social position associated with women. Femininity as a concept applies to everyone. After all, you can say "that man is so effeminate" or "I'm getting in touch with my feminine side" and it still makes sense, doesn't it?

See, one of the earliest interventions of modern feminism was the separation of biological sex from the social behaviours associated with a given sex. Those social behaviours are what we call gender. It's not that complicated really: the fact that women have vaginas is sex, the fact that women wear dresses and grow their hair long is gender. Femininity refers to gender, if we call a man 'feminine' it doesn't mean he has a vagina, it means he is socially positioned closer to female than you would expect.

Why focus on "femininity", why not call it "genderism". Well, there's a tendancy, which we call androcentrism, to view masculinity as the default format of human life, and thus to make it's functioning kind of invisible even to people who have it. This is a complicated thing to explain, but probably the simplest way to put it is to imagine a history class. Unless it's a history class specifically about women, it will probably mostly be about men. That doesn't mean we have to call it the 'history of men' class, because the 'of men' can just be assumed when we call it 'history'. But think, if you went to a history class and it was only talking about women, you'd probably notice and ask where the men were and why it wasn't called 'history of women'. The reverse is not true.

I did say this was complicated. For now though, this is why it's called "feminism". Because femininity is the marked category of the gender system. It's the thing which sticks out by being exceptional, and that's why we call it feminism. It's a way of understanding gender by looking at how femininity is marked out from the "default" masculine subject position. That doesn't mean feminists and pro-feminists don't look at masculinity directly, but we recognize that if you want to understand how gender as a whole works, it's necessary to understand how femininity is marked out.

Still with me, cool.

Traditional feminist understandings of gender generally frame themselves around a concept called patriarchy. You've probably heard that word, but what does it mean? Does it mean that women hate you and want to chop your scrotum off? Well, strangely no.

See, originally patriarchy was an anthropological term which meant what it actually said. A society in which fathers (patriarchs) wielded the majority of social power, not just over women but also over junior men. Think of a gorilla herd, you have a dominant male, a collection of females and maybe some subordinate males who are allowed to hang around as long as they don't challenge the alpha male's authority.

With that in mind, maybe you can start to see how patriarchy is a fitting model for our society. It's not about all men scheming with each other to dominate all women, it's about the status of masculinity as an achievement (remember gender again, masculinity isn't something you just are, it's something you learn to put on) and femininity as a much lesser achievement. We don't live in Gor fanfiction, all women aren't chained and treated as slaves for our collective amusement, we live in a system in which everyone has a place, a place where society tells us we should belong and feel comfortable, and one of the major organizing principles of where our "place" is is our relationship to these unequal positions of masculinity or femininity. That doesn't just apply to relationships between men and women, but in particular to relationships between men, who are competing to live out the most "dominant" forms of masculinity.

Of course, patriarchy isn't the only inequality in our society. In slave owning times, a rich white woman could still wield enormous power and prestige in society compared over a black male slave, for example, but that's not because he's a man and she's a woman, it's because of a whole range of other factors. There have never been many situations where a woman will have recognized authority over a man just because she's a woman, unless the thing they are doing is not considered very important or socially valuable. The reverse, again, is not true.

But what is feminism today? Surely it doesn't matter any more right, everyone is equal and it's all fine. Well, no, everyone is equal under law, but from quite early on feminists have generally understood that changing the law would not be enough to bring about social equality. Even today, most men just assume they will have careers, and most women assume that if they have children they will be primary carers. That doesn't mean we're not committed to gender equality, we just tend to follow quite rigid assumptions about how to behave. In other words, we still live according to gender roles.

The point is to break down some of the restrictive elements of these gender roles, to the point where everyone, both men and women, can grow up in a society where what they have between their legs and the way they gender themselves will no longer determine the entire expected pattern of lives. The point is to break down the idea of separate "male" and "female" worlds (the public and domestic sphere, respectively) to the point where our lives are no longer riddled with assumptions about how we will act, behave and live in particular situations.

However, you are right in one area in that feminism is no longer a coherent movement in the same way it used to be. This has probably lead to a lot of misconceptions about what feminism is, because it's no longer possible to assume that all feminists share the same opinions. Even these ideas which I've written down here might not be acceptable to all feminists, and that doesn't make them bad feminists, because you don't get a feminist membership card when you become a feminist. The only criteria for being a feminist is calling yourself one. Feminism is (and always was) a coalition of people with very different ideas bought together by a common cause, and there's no reason why men can't be part of that too.

So yeah, that's feminism. Now please stop talking all this bollocks about feminazis and how it's all terribly unfair to mens.

If you're scrolling down to see how fucking long this thing is. Maybe start reading from here.

One more thing, let's move on briefly to the actual issue. The video, and why it's caused so much controversy.

The problem, fundamentally, is that noone treats violence against women exactly the same as violence against men. We all assume, to some degree or another, that men shouldn't hit or hurt women. That is because women are generally not perceived to be a part of the competition for dominant masculine subject positions. Even if they win a fight against a man, they don't gain any man-points from it, the man just gets laughed at for being beat up by a girl. It can always be assumed that a woman is too weak to compete.

However, this leads to the theoretical other side, where I have to introduce the idea of misogyny. Misogyny is an irrational aggressive response towards women, particularly certain types of women whose existence is dangerous or subversive to the masculine sense of self. Misogyny manifests particularly in an attraction to sexual violence or coercion, in the desire to dominate or force women into a submissive sexual role, but some people will also read it as an implicit component in making "deviant" or sexualized women acceptable targets for conventional violence.

The point is that women are not normally deemed acceptable targets for violence, but suddenly become so when they are highly sexualized or express deviant or sexually aggressive personality traits. That is why this is dodgy, not because it has women and they're being murdered, but because of the circumstances by which murdering women is made an acceptable act.

I don't think it's completely valid in this case, but I can see the logic behind it.

I will say that disagreeing with people without even understanding why they find something objectionable is not going to work. Feminists will simply think of you as ignorant, and until you've read the relevant books, you kind of are. Heck, the thought crossed my mind earlier when I was reading this thread and wanting to bore my own brains out with a drill. I hope you feel less ignorant for having read all this bollocks, but you're still pretty ignorant. Women can read, and many feminists read a lot of books before forming an opinion. They're not just ignorant women who don't understand all your important man stuff, it's more like the opposite. You need to learn something in order to have a respectable opinion.

The way to engage with feminism is not to try and shout down all the silly women with their bad ideas, and certainly not to turn into reactionary douche about it, but to take the time to develop a meaningful opinion which actually answers some of the concerns which people have. If you can do that, people will listen to you and you won't come across as a screeching manchild.

Because right now, some of you are making me feel bad that I even share a hobby with you. I fucking love the hitman series, I'll happily defend it and its sexually charged, violent imagery all day. But I can do that from a pro-feminist position, I can do that without engaging in microaggression, gender-blindness, invalidation or all the other fucking bullshit which comes out whenever someone mentions feminism on this site. So can you.
 

PirateRose

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I find the Hitman trailer sexist because of the stupid outfits they are wearing. Otherwise, they started the fight, they brought the gun power. Would have liked to see them make 47 bleed before going out though.

I find the Tomb Raider trailers sexist because you just get this constant sight of Lara Croft getting the crap beat out of her while she's moaning and gasping like it's a porno. She hardly ever puts up a fight and now they've added in potential sexual assault by big scary, dark looking men. Rumors are flying they have an actual quick time event in the game where you've got to press the right buttons to help her escape from getting raped. Crystal Dynamics has even said, they want to make Lara Croft in such a way players will want to protect her from harm. I can understand making her realistically like an inexperienced 21 year old fresh out of collage, but they are going at the wrong angle for it.

I find the Far Cry 3 trailer is the worst to come out of E3. Not just sexist, but way over the top intense in a way that screams shock value and violence for the sake of violence. Also racist with the fact you have a white man leading the poor natives. The game's major problem lies more in what people think men desire: sex, power, and violence, but to an extreme. Since the woman isn't getting smacked around, no one's throwing a fit about it. It's just accepted men like that stuff and will be really entertained by the extremes.