Gamers make bad feminists

[Mahoshonen]

Now, I have some views on the depiction of women in games that might seem odd conventionally but I suspect a lot of people agree with me.

On the one hand, I don't see anything so terrible about fighting battling nuns that's more sexualized than, say, 2 muscled men pummeling each other in God of War.

I also think that Bayonetta is the most positive female role model to come out of gaming this generation.

On the other hand, when I look at the recent history of games and see:

2010: Metroid Other M-"Samus is my precious wittle waifu uguu~!"

2011: Duke Nukem Forever-"Hey Let's make constant misogynistic jokes and show bimbos getting raped to death!"

2012: Tomb Raider-"Press X to not be raped."

I develop a real loathing for the people responsible for making games these days.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Feminist is such a stupid word, what it stands for is equality yet is worded to only apply to women as if they are the only ones who have problems and can fight for them.

While I agree that nowadays "feminism" might not be the first choice of word, you do have to bear in mind that the term was coined at a time when women who were unhappy with being stay-at-home mothers and housewives were literally treated as mentally ill... It was considerably more appropriate then. And we all know how hard it can be to change established terminology.

Just wanted to point that out

I don't think people have a problem with first wave feminism, its second wave feminism and people like Andrea Dworkin that people have an issue with.

 

[sanquin]

Anyone can claim to be anything they want, but if they're not, they're not. And since the literal definition of 'feminism' is advocating for women to have equal rights to men, anybody who wants women to have MORE rights than men is, by definition, not a feminist.

With that black and white train of thought most christians aren't really christian either. (like 90% or more of them) Just using this example because it's the first that popped into my head, not to start a religious debate. As it REALLY sounds like the christians that say 'but that christian that murdered in the name of christ wasn't a REAL christian!'

But anyway, it's just that it's not that simple. If someone says they are something, speaks as if they are indeed that something, follows what that something is/does/stands for, that person is still that something. Even if the implementation of that something goes differently.

 

[Alexnader]

The woman are not real, It is a work of fiction, Games are an art form.

There wouldn't be outcry if a woman was punched/raped/dressed as a strippernunassissin in a book, movie or TV program (assuming it was aired at the right time).

Hahaha, I love that people can take the "it's art, people just hate it because it's in vidya games" argument as far as "strippernunassassins". Personally I think if this kind of schlock made it into some form of mainstream media it would be decried as stupid, sexist and above all pointless.

The one caveat to that would be if there was some point to having latex clad babes getting pummeled in slow motion. I've heard the hitman games can ritualise murder and that there are some frankly ridiculous ways of killing people. If the series can take this murder-porn theme and actually say something about it, anything at all, then I'll forgive the inclusion of ass-assins.

*captcha - finger lickin good ಠ_ಠ

 

[Ryotknife]

evilthecat...i was going to applaud you for a level headed post that helps both sides of the debate here, until your third last paragraph betrayed the very message you were trying to convey.

 

[Ryotknife]

Thats not true I am an amazing feminist. I fucking love tits and am all for giving them equal rights.

Then you're not a feminist but an equalist. Feminists, these days, are only all about women's rights. No longer about just equal rights. Or rather, feminists these days are all about getting special treatment just so they can 'feel' equal to men even though they do less work, are weaker, etc. (Not saying women all do less work or are weaker, just that the ones that are want to still feel equal for doing/achieving less.)

So yea, you're an equalist! Same with me.

Feel free to report me. I know I will get a warning/suspension/ban for this but it is worth it. Sanquin, you are an absolute asshole who has no idea what the feminism movement is, or what the hell you are talking about. You are sexist, and a prick. Fuck you.

you know, you are kinda proving the point.

the person gave the both of them a label that would make both sides equals.

you respond with giving the label of a sexist and a prick, making yourself superior while supposedly defending your definition of feminism that is suppose to be defined by equality. do you see the problem here?

You are more loyal to a word than to the movement it is suppose to be. that kind of attitude has lead to some of the vilest events in human history.

 

[sanquin]

Feel free to report me. I know I will get a warning/suspension/ban for this but it is worth it. Sanquin, you are an absolute asshole who has no idea what the feminism movement is, or what the hell you are talking about. You are sexist, and a prick. Fuck you.

Firstly, those are both terms used for males, so in case you indeed think I am...I'm female. Secondly, really now, I am sexist for not wanting to associate with the bullshit that feminists pull, as a fellow female?

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

If you're scrolling down to see how fucking long this thing is. Maybe start reading from here.

Okay fucking lol'd at this part, you got me there. (Although I did skim your top part a bit, interesting read from what I did actually read over.)

The way to engage with feminism is not to try and shout down all the silly women with their bad ideas, and certainly not to turn into reactionary douche about it, but to take the time to develop a meaningful opinion which actually answers some of the concerns which people have. If you can do that, people will listen to you and you won't come across as a screeching manchild.

I agree with alot of what you say. However, I'm just going to list some personal experience that I have dealt with before.

(Most of this was me in the background as a listener/observer to the discussions at hand, so I'd like to think I was in a bit more "unbiased" role than if I were the one involved directly.)

Some very strong feminists I have met and know, while they are mostly all decent people that I'd share a drink with and chat with on a weekly basis (hell a few of them are my best friends), when it comes to any sort of feminist or idea of equality, they turn into having a very harsh aggressive tone and tend to attack the person directly, rather than being assertive and informative about the topic. I'm not saying you should be an emotionless brick wall about it, but when they would argue/discuss with some "not so well informed citizens", they basically cemented that persons..shortsighted view/opinion even further about the topics at hand(which goes vise versa also unfortunately.)

(I will agree though, alot of people come across as screeching man children when it comes to discussion..especially in a college lecture, I tend to sink into my chair even further as to avoid the embarrassment that I am at the same college as that person.)


OT: I don't really have much opinion on the video one way or another..however pointing out "LUL LOOK BOOBS, OVER SEXUALIZATION! NOT NECESSARY! " comes across a bit..shoddy.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

There is a bad trend of people shouting down anyone complaining about the treatment of female characters in video gaming these days. That's what should be seen as 'reactionary'.

I saw a thread once with a poll on the matter and the vast majority said there was room for improvement. Why don't we take it from there.

 

[Darkmantle]

SNIP

Dammit, doesn't anyone read anymore, I never said women were saints or better, I said that feminism is about equality, and stupid people think it means women are superior or men are inferior and I didn't say a damn thing about men not or being abused or some shit like that.
My point is that if you call yourself a feminist and you think that means anything beyond gender equality (like being superior or giving you a right to create a different gender inequality), you are a retard and you are using the wrong word to describe yourself.

I did read it, but what I am saying is that while you say feminism is about equality, I have yet to see it. All talk, no action. Where's the feminist organization that helps promote awareness of abuse against men, or help open men's shelters?

I identify as a humanist, instead of a feminist, for just that reason.

 

[infinity_turtles]

Anyone who says feminism is about equality hasn't taken the time to familiarize themselves with the modern feminist movement/lobbying groups/ect ect. Sure, most people who say they're feminists probably mean equality, but those who most actively pursue things in the name of feminism aren't after that anymore. People who call themselves feminists and mean they're for equality somewhat remind me of those who donate to Peta because they want to help animals. Those who are most invested in Peta/Feminism aren't doing what most people who support them think they are. And bad things happen as a result.

 

[Legion]

My only dislike of the Hitman trailer is how unnecessary the sexist outfits are. They dress like normal nuns, but choose to dress like dominatrices to fight. Why? What does it add?

The fact that he beats them up doesn't mean much to me, they were trying to murder him, it's no different from if they were men or robots.

I recognize that there wa sclear objectification going on in the trailer, though some people have told me its meant to be ugly as part of the world I dont know enough to comment, you seem to say sexualizasion is the same as objectification. Do you mean this or does sexualization need to have a point to be there?

Ah... I meant 'sexy' not sexist.

I do think that sexualisation needs a point, even if it is only minor. Take characters such as Lara Croft and Rayne. They are sexy, and it's a part of their identity that while they are appealing to look at, it's not their defining characteristic.

They are more defined by being strong willed, independent and extremely capable. Their sexuality is there to make them appealing, but it doesn't define them.

In this trailer it's sexy outfits for the sake of sexy outfits. There is no logical or practical reason for why these assassins, walking through the rain towards a motel would need to strip off nun outfits for leather and PVC. It simply has no point at all.

If he'd been fighting them in a strip club, then sure, there'd be a logical reason, but a hotel parking lot? Why?

 

[MetalMagpie]

Is it possible to add "feminism" and "sexism" to Godwin's Law?

Discussions about either of the above lead to nothing but arguments (mostly over semantics). Might as well just killed them as soon as they arise.

Nope. Lots of things are sexist, but not a lot of things are Hitler. Just because pointing out sexism rustles jimmies doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

But pointing out sexism is a lot like pointing out fascism. In almost all cases (on the internet at least) people are either grossly exaggerating the problem or trying to make a problem where none actually exists.

Sexism doesn't exist? What planet do you live on? Can I move there?

Sexism most certainly exists.

On this planet there are women who can't leave the house without a male relative to accompany them. There are women who suffer dangerous working environments with no safety equipment, for less than half what a man would be paid. There are women who are forced to lose their children in order to divorce an abusive husband, because the law grants the man custody. There are girls forced into marriage at twelve years old, to a complete stranger more than double their age. There are women standing in front of councils of men to make humiliating pleas for blocks on the import of sanitary products to be lifted. There are baby girls who are mutilated, who are abandoned at birth, and who suffer barbaric illegal abortions.

A female character wearing a bikini in a video game is not sexist. It's not even close.

Maybe it's just my experience but - like I said - when someone on the internet shouts "Sexism!" they're usually not talking about any of the things that matter.

 

[Eamar]

Just small things mostly. Like being 'so' offended when a girl gets hit by a guy. But when a girl then hits a girl it's 'girl power'. Or outright expecting a man to pay for any and all bills when they're together, and getting angry otherwise. Or screaming 'sexist' when a guy says 'geez, you're a terrible driver' while she almost just hit several other cars on the road.

But also larger things. One of the women where I used to work complained about being paid less than a guy, saying that 'he was doing the same job' as her. Which he wasn't. 1: He had a higher education. 2: His job consisted of the main administrative work while she mostly did the checking for mistakes and did the excess work of the man.

Those are the 'feminists' I see. You can say 'they're not feminists!' all you want, but when said women proclaim themselves to be feminists, and keep spouting their unfair 'equal rights' bullshit, they're feminists to me.

If they want to call themselves feminists, I can't stop that. I'm sorry that's the experience you've had, and that's about all I can say on the matter.

I'm with you as far as hitting goes. Of course ideally no-one should stoop to that level, but shit happens in real life, and I can see no way at all of justifying calling a man a monster for hitting a woman under any circumstances, whereas as woman slapping man would be considered a non-issue, even "empowered." That's bullshit.

The expecting men to pay for stuff thing is surprisingly common, and again I just do not understand it. Personally I'd feel downright uncomfortable letting a man pay for everything on a date (unless he was a long term partner and we'd agreed it beforehand, as a gift or something). To me, it would feel like letting myself be "bought" :S

As for the other two examples you gave, those seem more like individual issues the women involved have, so I can't really comment.

I find this stuff more troubling though:

For one, I've yet to hear a single feminist agree with me that if a man accidentally gets a woman pregnant, he should not automatically pay child support. Sure, if he had unprotected sex. It wasn't even really an accident then, imo. But with a condom but it broke, and the woman refuses to have an abortion/morning after pill? Then it's not the man's responsibility in my opinion.

While I'm not sure on the specifics of child support, something that drives me crazy is when you see an unplanned pregnancy, the man suggests an abortion (suggests, not forces) and is treated like scum for it. I'm sorry, but parenthood involves both parents, and the man has just as much right to say he doesn't want to be a parent as the woman. I'm not saying the woman should necessarily abort the baby, but you cannot call the man a monster for suggesting a perfectly valid option. If the woman was the one wanting an abortion, few people would give her the same treatment the man would get (obviously not talking about people who are completely against abortion full stop here). Sorry for ranting, basically I agree that men's wishes are under-represented in these cases.

I have also yet to hear a feminist support men getting maternity leave if they want it.

That's very odd, as one of the major campaigns in current feminism (in Europe at least) is for the introduction of general parental leave. Exclusive maternity leave is seen as holding women back: their careers suffer while men get no career-related fall out for having a child; also, the exclusion of men from the care of a baby in the early stages reinforces societal gender roles, which are generally seen as harmful. In countries where parental leave is split, such as Sweden, gender equality is far more successful. So yeah, I fail to see any way a feminist could be anti paternity leave :/

And most (not all) feminists I've met see male rape victims as a non-issue.

That is obviously despicable. Not much else to say really. Sounds like the "feminists" you know are just unpleasant people.

Once again, I'm sorry that's the experience you've had. Please don't think we're all like that!

 

[Eamar]

I don't think people have a problem with first wave feminism, its second wave feminism and people like Andrea Dworkin that people have an issue with.

Agreed, and I'd be pretty worried if people seriously had an issue with first wave feminism. That wasn't really my point though, I was just pointing out where the word came from.

Sexism most certainly exists.

On this planet there are women who can't leave the house without a male relative to accompany them. There are women who suffer dangerous working environments with no safety equipment, for less than half what a man would be paid. There are women who are forced to lose their children in order to divorce an abusive husband, because the law grants the man custody. There are girls forced into marriage at twelve years old, to a complete stranger more than double their age. There are women standing in front of councils of men to make humiliating pleas for blocks on the import of sanitary products to be lifted. There are baby girls who are mutilated, who are abandoned at birth, and who suffer barbaric illegal abortions.

A female character wearing a bikini in a video game is not sexist. It's not even close.

Maybe it's just my experience but - like I said - when someone on the internet shouts "Sexism!" they're usually not talking about any of the things that matter.

This is one of the most common arguments you see against modern feminism, and it's completely fallacious. I'm sorry, but the existence of a worse problem elsewhere doesn't mean other, "smaller" problems don't exist. It is possible to support multiple causes, you know?

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

If I may, the reason I think people are talking about this issue at this time, is not particularly to do with the fact it is women being beaten up, but rather a purile male fantasy of women. It is that fact that a group of overly sexualised women wearing fetish outfits are beaten up and killed by a single man.
Arguably some people my say this is showing male domination, by use of force over "weaker women". Considering that these women are arguably being shown off as sex objects (rarely if ever do we see men in the male variants of these costumes), it suggests that women are not people and men (I would presume the majority of the audience of this game) own them and that they are possessions, allowing you can do what you want with them.

Now I doubt that that is what the developers or publishers of this game are alluding to, I think it was a most likely a series of bad calls by a marketing department.

I feel that if these women had been wearing sensible clothes, rather than fetish outfits, there were maybe less of them or a mix of men and women (I will concede that this would make the name of the assassins' group make little sense).

This. This. Very much this.

I admit, I did initially enjoy the Hitman trailer when it came out, if only for how laughably over-the-top it was. But the more I watch it, the more the creepy undertones start to become overtones. Nothing wrong with women dressing in nun outfits/S&M gear, but when they're objectified to the extent they were in the trailer, it doesn't day good things about gender representation in games.

Okay, I just watched the trailer. Is the new Hitman a 70s exploitation film?

 

[Loonyyy]

SNIP

Dammit, doesn't anyone read anymore, I never said women were saints or better, I said that feminism is about equality, and stupid people think it means women are superior or men are inferior and I didn't say a damn thing about men not or being abused or some shit like that.
My point is that if you call yourself a feminist and you think that means anything beyond gender equality (like being superior or giving you a right to create a different gender inequality), you are a retard and you are using the wrong word to describe yourself.

I did read it, but what I am saying is that while you say feminism is about equality, I have yet to see it. All talk, no action. Where's the feminist organization that helps promote awareness of abuse against men, or help open men's shelters?

I identify as a humanist, instead of a feminist, for just that reason.

Not to burst your bubble, but it is possible to be humanist in principle, while acting to help women exclusively under the auspices of feminism. If you believe that women are getting the predominance of abuse, then you'll help women. The feminist organisations are entirely for the promotion of awareness of issues which they see as discrimination against women, which doesn't mean they don't believe in discrimination against men, it just means that it's not their issue.

I too would identify as a humanist, but I wouldn't dismiss feminist activism simply because I need them to work towards eliminating the aspects of sexism which discriminate against males. That's not their purpose, and in fact, good activists know that they must be focussed on one issue. The more issues they take on, the more they consider or form an opinion for action on, the more people who agree with their main issue they remove from their movement. I would however, dismiss groups who don't believe in discrimination against males, but their beliefs need not be identical to their actions.

For instance, I'm a humanist, but I might support an LGBT group. I wouldn't ask them to then support a straight help group (Do these actually exist? Just out of curiosity), or a racial discrimination group, because each extra opinion they take will offend some of their followers, and diminish their following, and activist groups need a following to have impact. In fact, humanist activism, from the perspective of correcting societies flaws in particular area, would be identical to the individual groups activism anyway. (Barring of course, things like humanist charity work, of course)

 

[Treblaine]

The irony is that I actually thought the ad for Hitman was kind of pro-women as it actually showed women being brutally murdered in the same way men are brutally murdered in these kind of trailers. It's the first time I've seen women being killed in such an extreme manner in a game trailer, so equality for everyone!

The skin-tight clothes are kind of silly but they had to wear something special, it wouldn't be interesting at all if they wore regular clothes, something would just seem off. Not that I am for the objectivization of the female body, but I think it's better in the struggle for equality that women are dressed as whatever the artists want them to wear. If we want total equality then we shouldn't even consider adjusting something in a game just because someone might find it offensive. Note; this does not mean that I am a sexist, I am all for equality, I just think that true equality will exist when people completely stop thinking about what's sexist and what's not.

The problem is they weren't being killed in the same way as men would be. Do you really think you would have viewed that trailer the same way if it was a group of men dressed as priests who suddenly took off their clothes and fought wearing bicycle shorts?

Note; people who aren't sexist don't have the tell people that, similar to how people who aren't racists don't have to tell people that they have a black friend.

Agent 47 has fought guys dressed like bondage-gimps before. It was in some nightclub where he was on an assassination mission, just not a trailer. He's also killed guys dressed up as priests who were doing naughty things. It's not like in the past decade of Hitman games they haven't done the equivalent things with males before. This is not without precedent, females are not getting unequal depiction.

And the actual WAY 47 killed them was the same: stealth, martial arts and gunfire. Look at the other trailers for Absolution, they show 47 killing using the same brutal tactics but against men dressed rather "straight" like as any NYPD officer in authentic uniform or Federal Agents in business suits.