Gamers make bad feminists

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Then again, I've had five corporals and a sergeant tell me that "all women are just snakes with tits, do what you need with them and then get out of dodge", and I do like the crazies. My view might be skewed some what.

I dont understand how that works.

Few in the kitchen do understand

Bad jokes aside, I understand your confusion, from a male perspective, I'd compare it to when a girl says "all guys are jerks!" when in reality, they don't actually feel that and aren't too wise with their words at the moment. (Then again, alot of military is more based on testosterone and old "Gung Ho!" style mannerism's, where the more macho and tool you can be, the cooler you are, so saying stupid shit like "Heh women are only good for tits and sandwiches!" it tends to ignite ignorant flames that shouldn't be used in the first place.

Ehhh...whut?
I don't quite understand. Me being a feminist has very little to do with me being a gamer.

also, agreed on....this I have no idea somehow gaming as a hobby relates to being a good/bad feminist, but people will see things where they want to I guess..

Captcha: Bad Egg

Why yes I am a bad egg! Thank you very much captcha for nailing me on the head with that one

 

[BlackStar42]

What you've taken are tweets. They're soundbites wihtout sufficient context or elaboration to draw commentary without that being perceived as trollish or 'reactive'.

I don't think there is ever an appropriate context for calling somebody a ****.

There is when that someone is Piers Morgan. Sometimes, no other word will do.

 

[rokkolpo]

Since we are throwing stupid sweeping Generalizations based on no facts whatsoever.

Cats are shitty pets.
Cupcakes are the best source of iron.
Feminists make great objective journalists

I agree completely with boaq here.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic... I mean yeah video games aren't meant to teach lessons. I'm just pointing out that it isn't very empowering or anything to be able to hit x to not be raped.

You are a sensible person Mortai, so I really shouldn't have to tell you that the actual gameplay of "not being raped" (be it button mashing, QTE or some more involved gameplay process) isn't as important as the framework in which it occurs. The actual act of rape itself, just like murder or othe violence, is not inherently bad to portray within any form of media. What generally makes it bad is that it is handled improperly, either through bad narrative, poor context or simply a hamfisted approach to the portrayal.

Remember when the film crit hulk [http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist] talked about this? He used the comparsion between how the movie strawdog uses excellent narrative, superb acting and great control of the visuals and audio of the scene to make it unforgettable and frightening. Then he juxtapositioned that to how Arkham City seems to throw out by-lines from just about every goon out there about how much they'd like to force Poison Ivy/Catwoman/Harley Quinn/Dr. Freezes frozen wife into coietus.

What I am trying to get at here is that even if there ends up being a "Press X not to be raped" QTE in the Tomb Raider, that doesn't necessarily have to be bad if it is approached with due diligence in the writing. An attempted rape is a powerful storytelling and emotional tool (as well as a very touchy subject) for showing a character as being vulnerable and exposed; and its' subversion can speak volumes for the actual strength of the character. If done well, it becomes compelling and gut wrenching all at the same time, much like the first fighting scene in Heavy Rain constantly had my heart racing. If done poorly, it will only leave you with a sour taste in your mouth at the gross mishandling of such powerful and sensitive themes.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm very flattered.

See, apparently it's fine for a contributor to this website to make juvenile and offensive comments about a woman, or to constantly see demeaning and unfair generalisations about women on the forums, but expressing the opinion that some gamers are juvenile man-children based on sentiments I have seen on this very site is deserving of a warning.

Okay Escapist.

That is...That's pretty disturbing, really.

 

[WindKnight]

Pretty much this. people talking negatively about 'feminist agendas' and treat feminists like their trying to crush all men underneath their heel want you to feel sorry for the poor, maligned white heterosexual male who is being so badly mistreated now! I mean, he dominated society for so long, why should he be forced to share it with people not like him?

/mindboggled

so...discrimination against women is wrong, but discrimination against men is okay. that is not equality, that is "haves" vs "have nots". all it does is start a perpetual cycle where the "have nots" overthrow the "haves", only for the new "have nots" start their own overthrow attempt later on.

it is a cycle of friction without end which will constantly escalate as time goes on.

if you believed in equality in the slightest, how X group treated Y group is IRRELEVANT to how they should be treated now IF you believe in equality.

unfortunately, many people SAY they believe in equality when all they are interested is how it benefits them.

I am male, but i have no particular loyalty to my gender, race, or religion. I can admit that i feel that men, overall, tend to be a bit jerkish or pigish (with varying degrees to each of those aspects) compared to women.

Hell, im not even loyal to a political party anymore, not after the crap that went down in congress last summer.

but the best part? the VERY BEST PART?

is that there are quite a few self described "feminists" on here that decry the feminazi definition, saying that they are a minority loose cannons, but procede to blame all of their woes on right ring lunatics. what is funny about that is that they are ACTING IN THE SAME FASHION AS THE RIGHT WINGERS THAT THEY DESPISE.

There is NO difference between a right wing nut blaming the woes of the world onto liberals and a "feminist" blaming the woes of the world onto right wing nuts.

thank god that out of the group of "feminists" on here that there are a few are a credit to the human race by being reasonable and upholding the founding principle of the movement.

Eamar, keep on rockin

Except the only people equating feminists as a whole to the rather, shall we say, insane bunch who embrace full misandry, are generally those trying to present themselves as 'false underdogs' - the kind who have had the power and the rights and the exclusivity to both for so long, and are now acting like their being oppressed when they're told to share with women, other races and people who are not heterosexual.

There are people who came in with the 'old ways' and don't want to get with the 'new ways'. And they are w=quite hapy to present themselves as being maligned and abused by the people they are themselves abusing to keep it to the old ways.

 

[The Ubermensch]

Then again, I've had five corporals and a sergeant tell me that "all women are just snakes with tits, do what you need with them and then get out of dodge", and I do like the crazies. My view might be skewed some what.

I dont understand how that works. I've heard so many people say crap like this, but I'm always getting accused of man-hating (even though I've not said anything of the sort), but this crap is acceptable to say.
Then again, if anyone begins a sentance with `All women are` I tend to tune out. Unless they are going to say `individuals`, its hardly going to be enlightned.

I was saying that "my personal experience with the fairer sex might make my opinion anything but fair, so take this with a large helping of salt". I would agree with the dismissal of hyperbolic statements.

Take it for what it is, the lamination of a man who's been burned one to many times to love again

(Coming This Fall)

And with that in mind; to the original question, gamers making bad feminists, I say Yes... but non feminist gamers in my experience make excellent and empowered women.

Ehhh...whut?
I don't quite understand. Me being a feminist has very little to do with me being a gamer.

Does it? As I said, I don't agree with the movement. I am defiantly not saying women belong in the kitchen (Well I might say it ironically), I do believe in gender equality which, yeah ok, still doesn't exist. But the contemporary feminist movement isn't about equality in my experience. Yes, I know we should remove the stigma from the word but someone at least partially rational needs to oppose the movement in order for there to be balance.

Feminism has changed too many times for there to be an accurate definition, so I submit to the Internet that it is impossible to have a "good" feminist by definition.

As far as the "Excellent and Empowered" bit; A gamer girl in general will have a higher IQ, map reading skills and has a 60% chance to ride motorbikes. I do love a girl with good map reading skills.

 

[The Ubermensch]

Snip

Feminism has changed too many times for there to be an accurate definition, so I submit to the Internet that it is impossible to have a "good" feminist by definition.

 

[WindKnight]

Snip

Feminism has changed too many times for there to be an accurate definition, so I submit to the Internet that it is impossible to have a "good" feminist by definition.

(Finds cover behind a big pile of sandbags before someone takes the bait)

 

[likalaruku]

Why do we make bad feminists? Because we aren't very feminine? Because after decades of boobs-in-the-face we've just become numb to it? I'd be satisfied if male characters had to run around dressed like they straight out of He-Man or Fire & Ice, or Zardoz (come on, who doesn't want to see Sean Connery running around in an unflattering wedding dress?)

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I don't think there is ever an appropriate context for calling somebody a ****.

Then you've never met my mother-in-law.

lol, I lost it when I read that! hahaha.

 

[LordFish]

The woman are not real, It is a work of fiction, Games are an art form.

There wouldn't be outcry if a woman was punched/raped/dressed as a strippernunassissin in a book, movie or TV program (assuming it was aired at the right time).

*women

and if a woman was unched/raped/dressed as a strippernunassissin in a book, movie or TV program you bet your ass there would be a public outcry.

You know its very immature to correct a person's spelling and grammar to make your point appear more valid.

Also Punched* (I never claimed to be mature.)

I haven't seen it but I believe there is a pretty brutal rape scene in The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (Film and Book).

Mr and Mrs Smith has Angelina Jolie dressed as a sexy assassin then later on in the film Brad Pitt punches her several times then kicks her in the stomach... Thank god he didn't beat her up while she was dressed in latex or there would have been rioting on the streets.

An art flick called 'The Serbian Film' features a woman giving birth, having her head cut off and then the new born baby raped - I can't comment on how graphic it is because I also haven't seen that. But that is controversial for similar reasons; Is it art or just gratuitous on-screen violence. Difference is that is so extreme it's sickening. This just adds some mild sex appeal to an otherwise mundane fight scene.

 

[psijac]

Feminist make bad feminist. anyone who claims to speak for all women on every topic has their head so far up their own as they can taste their own breathe

 

[lacktheknack]

On the other hand, when I look at the recent history of games and see:

2010: Metroid Other M-"Samus is my precious wittle waifu uguu~!"

2011: Duke Nukem Forever-"Hey Let's make constant misogynistic jokes and show bimbos getting raped to death!"

2012: Tomb Raider-"Press X to not be raped."

Isn't "press X to not be raped" a step in the right direction? It shows a girl in a nasty situation turning it right the hell around on itself. That's female empowerment, is it not?

Is "press X to get a job" a good lesson in today's economy? Is "press X not to starve" something that people in 3rd world nations should applaud? Or does it trivialize things with unrealistically easy solutions?

It's in the same game as "Press X to kill dudes". One step at a time, please.

 

[lacktheknack]

On the other hand, when I look at the recent history of games and see:

2010: Metroid Other M-"Samus is my precious wittle waifu uguu~!"

2011: Duke Nukem Forever-"Hey Let's make constant misogynistic jokes and show bimbos getting raped to death!"

2012: Tomb Raider-"Press X to not be raped."

Isn't "press X to not be raped" a step in the right direction? It shows a girl in a nasty situation turning it right the hell around on itself. That's female empowerment, is it not?

Is "press X to get a job" a good lesson in today's economy? Is "press X not to starve" something that people in 3rd world nations should applaud? Or does it trivialize things with unrealistically easy solutions?

It's in the same game as "Press X to kill dudes". One step at a time, please.

But 'Press X to kill dudes" isn't empowering for anyone, so I don't see how the comparison changes the situation.

It trivializes the problem of "there's someone there who wants to hurt me" with an unnecessarily easy solution ("KILL HIM IN THE FACE"). I never saw the game as an empowerment thing anyways, I always was viewing it as "Horrible Situation Survival Sim", with attempted rape not being one of the simulated survival bits (it's there for the same reason it's on TV - it adds sympathy towards the victim and allows her to act in a way that no one will question, I'd only consider your point valid if you have to manipulate the controls beyond "press one button to keep watching").

If you're taking a video game as a method of effectively conveying actual methods of survival, then you're probably overestimating the medium a bit at the moment. I don't see how you can draw connections between "press X to get a job" or "press X to not starve" in a piece of entertainment that runs on the idea of the protagonist NOT getting raped and killed. As is, most game economics DO function on "press X to get job" (see the Sims) or "press X to not starve" (see Fallout: New Vegas on hardcore mode). I don't expect much more than that, based on the context and aspirations of the game.

If you want to see someone recovering mentally after a terrible event, try playing "The Path" or "Trauma", games which are to Tomb Raider as eggs are to asparagus (they both are food, but that's where similarities end).

 

[Loonyyy]

What you've taken are tweets. They're soundbites wihtout sufficient context or elaboration to draw commentary without that being perceived as trollish or 'reactive'.

I don't think there is ever an appropriate context for calling somebody a ****.

It's only a word. Like any number of swear words. I mean, we still use words like "dick" or "jerk" or "jackass" to describe peopl, and these could be considered offensive to men. Most of the time, when people are using swear words, it's just an expletive, generally used without reference to the historical context or the origins of the word.z

Any context is fine for swearing.

 

[lacktheknack]

On the other hand, when I look at the recent history of games and see:

2010: Metroid Other M-"Samus is my precious wittle waifu uguu~!"

2011: Duke Nukem Forever-"Hey Let's make constant misogynistic jokes and show bimbos getting raped to death!"

2012: Tomb Raider-"Press X to not be raped."

Isn't "press X to not be raped" a step in the right direction? It shows a girl in a nasty situation turning it right the hell around on itself. That's female empowerment, is it not?

Is "press X to get a job" a good lesson in today's economy? Is "press X not to starve" something that people in 3rd world nations should applaud? Or does it trivialize things with unrealistically easy solutions?

It's in the same game as "Press X to kill dudes". One step at a time, please.

But 'Press X to kill dudes" isn't empowering for anyone, so I don't see how the comparison changes the situation.

It trivializes the problem of "there's someone there who wants to hurt me" with an unnecessarily easy solution ("KILL HIM IN THE FACE"). I never saw the game as an empowerment thing anyways, I always was viewing it as "Horrible Situation Survival Sim", with attempted rape not being one of the simulated survival bits (it's there for the same reason it's on TV - it adds sympathy towards the victim and allows her to act in a way that no one will question, I'd only consider your point valid if you have to manipulate the controls beyond "press one button to keep watching").

If you're taking a video game as a method of effectively conveying actual methods of survival, then you're probably overestimating the medium a bit at the moment. I don't see how you can draw connections between "press X to get a job" or "press X to not starve" in a piece of entertainment that runs on the idea of the protagonist NOT getting raped and killed. As is, most game economics DO function on "press X to get job" (see the Sims) or "press X to not starve" (see Fallout: New Vegas on hardcore mode). I don't expect much more than that, based on the context and aspirations of the game.

If you want to see someone recovering mentally after a terrible event, try playing "The Path" or "Trauma", games which are to Tomb Raider as eggs are to asparagus (they both are food, but that's where similarities end).

It doesn't trivialize it, it was never meant to mean anything. I'm saying if you're trying to portray it as empowerment then there's the issue. And you're backtracking if you now say it isn't empowerment, that was the statement I took issue with in the first place.

More or less, I just see a huge red herring from you. You went from empowerment to crap I wasn't talking about.

This is what I get for not tracking my own arguments. Please punch me in the face.