Gamers make bad feminists

[Batou667]

I wouldn't mind it if breasts were treated a bit more like feet.

You mean...

You should feel free to get them out in public, as long as they aren't smelly or covered in verrucas?

After bathing, they should be scrubbed thoroughly with an exfoliating brush or pumice?

It's considered rude to rest them on your desk at work?

In a self-defense situation, you can use their range and toughness to keep attackers at bay?

After extended high-impact exercise, they benefit from being rubbed and massaged?

A clumsy dance partner is liable to tread on them?

You can put socks or sandals on them, but never both at the same time?

 

[Bvenged]

I just wanted to comment. But due to the threats of a "low content post" what I shall say is this:

I find it humourous that a 10 page thread is based on the generalisation that gamers make bad feminists based off of 2 tweets.

Also, pineapples.

Yeah!

 

[tyriless]

Actually they would and have. The creepier misogynistic moments in Blade Runner (such as where Ford pins Young to wall and demands "Kiss Me") is a special kind of awful. People don't stop being feminists just because they shut off their console.

 

[Stu35]

How in the seven hells did one incredibly sarcastic tweet turn this thread into an argument over feminism?

From what I've seen of the Escapist forums, the very mention of the word feminism in ANY thread instantly results in a long, drawn out argument between equally absurd extremes, in which nobodies opinions are changed.

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

How in the seven hells did one incredibly sarcastic tweet turn this thread into an argument over feminism?

From what I've seen of the Escapist forums, the very mention of the word feminism in ANY thread instantly results in a long, drawn out argument between equally absurd extremes, in which nobodies opinions are changed.

See, that much I understand, and I tend to avoid these kind of things.

But I read the tweet and I assumed everyone knew he was being sarcastic and joking around. I was wrong, oh so very wrong.

And it wasn't even a good enough thread deserving of popcorn since almost everyone lost their mind here.

 

[Kahunaburger]

From what I've seen of the Escapist forums, the very mention of the word feminism in ANY thread instantly results in a long, drawn out argument between equally absurd extremes, in which nobodies opinions are changed.

"Hey guise it's the 21st century now let's not be sexist" = "absurd extremes?"

 

[Mr.Lucifer]

One thing I'm embarrassed about gaming exploitation is that its even worse than Hollywood. The worst that Hollywood does in mainstream blockbusters is hot actresses in tight outfits.

 

[Verzin]

Meh. I guess. Here's my take: hyper-sexualization is fucking stupid. Awesome in porn. Ridiculous, unrealistic, and downright fucking STUPID when you're playing a game that's trying to mimic how real people act and look.

I love boobies as much as anyone but Hyper sexualized women are ridiculous in video games. Absolutely ridiculous. I don't really care about the feminist argument. My problem is The whole deal with chainmail bikini's and schoolgirl and leather stripper nuns is immersion breaking BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FUCKING MAKE SENSE.

let's wear leather stripper clothing to go kill someone......k...That would make sense if you were disguising yourself as a stripper or if you wanted to use that to get close to the target....but....for fucks sake it was raining and they were after one of the most dangerous targets in the FUCKING WORLD!!! body armor maybe?
fucking ridiculous. Immersion breaking adolescent eye candied idiocy.

 

[Stu35]

From what I've seen of the Escapist forums, the very mention of the word feminism in ANY thread instantly results in a long, drawn out argument between equally absurd extremes, in which nobodies opinions are changed.

"Hey guise it's the 21st century now let's not be sexist" = "absurd extremes?"

Absolutely not what I said at all.

 

[AyreonMaiden]

I didn't really read the thread too much. I really just wanted to air out my feelings on gamers and feminism at the moment.

The word "sexist" is losing so much meaning for me in the gaming sphere. I'm becoming more and more numb towards these kinds of controversies because it's all becoming reactionary bullshit. When did everyone stop approaching things from multiple perspectives? When did art become an agenda?

The new Tomb Raider and its detractors are what's making me sigh...Weakness can be sexist, or it can be the logical starting point on a journey of growth. Cleavage can be sexist, or it can be a statement of individuality. By contrast, doesn't anyone think that those who idolize Alyx Vance or Jade from Beyond Good and Evil as feminist heroines are a bit sexist? Don't some of them seem to imply that the only way a woman can be strong is if she's completely covered and modest? Different perspectives, people, they give you different results. I feel like patient thinking is just disappearing more and more as the vocal minority becomes louder and louder, just from looking at some of the reactionary shit I've seen about this game.

I saw the trailers and demos for Tomb Raider and I can kinda see where people glean the sexist thing from, what with the frequent yelps of pain and the overused rape device to separate bad from good, weak from strong, etc. But I was also incredibly compelled to see how this frail person becomes stronger. Hell I look at this new Lara, cries and pleas for help and all, and am terrified of her. This looks like someone who will not be kept down if it's time to survive, like the Chosen Undead in Dark Souls. Is that the wrong opinion to have? I mean, I am a man who likes tits and ass but also finds the inequality between genders to be bullshit, so I don't know how privileged that makes me. Maybe I don't deserve to even have an opinion on the subject, since I'm so easy to immerse into a story that I tend to think of game characters as their own people with their own stories first, vehicles for agendas second.

In short, can we just murder the Post-ME3 vocal minority already?

 

[Darkmantle]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic... I mean yeah video games aren't meant to teach lessons. I'm just pointing out that it isn't very empowering or anything to be able to hit x to not be raped.

You are a sensible person Mortai, so I really shouldn't have to tell you that the actual gameplay of "not being raped" (be it button mashing, QTE or some more involved gameplay process) isn't as important as the framework in which it occurs. The actual act of rape itself, just like murder or othe violence, is not inherently bad to portray within any form of media. What generally makes it bad is that it is handled improperly, either through bad narrative, poor context or simply a hamfisted approach to the portrayal.

Remember when the film crit hulk [http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist] talked about this? He used the comparsion between how the movie strawdog uses excellent narrative, superb acting and great control of the visuals and audio of the scene to make it unforgettable and frightening. Then he juxtapositioned that to how Arkham City seems to throw out by-lines from just about every goon out there about how much they'd like to force Poison Ivy/Catwoman/Harley Quinn/Dr. Freezes frozen wife into coietus.

What I am trying to get at here is that even if there ends up being a "Press X not to be raped" QTE in the Tomb Raider, that doesn't necessarily have to be bad if it is approached with due diligence in the writing. An attempted rape is a powerful storytelling and emotional tool (as well as a very touchy subject) for showing a character as being vulnerable and exposed; and its' subversion can speak volumes for the actual strength of the character. If done well, it becomes compelling and gut wrenching all at the same time, much like the first fighting scene in Heavy Rain constantly had my heart racing. If done poorly, it will only leave you with a sour taste in your mouth at the gross mishandling of such powerful and sensitive themes.

Eh, I'm not trying to say it is necessarily bad to portray rape or attempted rape, I'm just saying that a video game character being able to fight back to get out of it isn't very empowering I don't think. It's not as if those in that situation necessarily had the ability to fight back, or were in a position to fight back, etc. It doesn't seem empowering to display a solution that people can't necessarily use to succeed. Maybe the context can change that, though and I just didn't think of such a scenario.

The problem with that then is that in a real war scenario, I can't hide to regen health. Or press B to kill someone in melee. That's a solution I couldn't use to succeed. I can't fight my way through an army of strange creatures to rescue someone, a la most RPGs, I probably couldn't even fend off an attack force filled with special agents and paramilitary to protect my own life (splinter cell conviction) after being wrongly convicted of a crime. It's not as if those in that situation necessarily had the ability to fight back, or were in a position to fight back, etc. It doesn't seem empowering to display a solution that people can't necessarily use to succeed.

 

[InfernalGrape]

What's wrong with all of you? You have bad luck in real life sou you wanna defend women on vg forums to become a defender?

 

[Oirish_Martin]

Yup, have to confess, totally not getting the furore over the new Tomb Raider. Seems like games devs are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

[Darkmantle]

MASSIVE SNIPPAGE

Well, I think what it comes down to is even though I agree with their motives, trying to reduce domestic violence against woman and stopping sexism, I cannot abide by many of their methods any longer, and it has left me Jaded to the whole endeavour.

 

[Loonyyy]

MASSIVE SNIPPAGE

Well, I think what it comes down to is even though I agree with their motives, trying to reduce domestic violence against woman and stopping sexism, I cannot abide by many of their methods any longer, and it has left me Jaded to the whole endeavour.

Totally fair. The most of them I've encountered have been on the net, and I'm singularly unimpressed by their net presence. Even some more reasonable sites like the posted Manboobz one are full of attempts at using (Incorrectly) terminology typically used by skeptics and rationalists (My favourite bloggers), and failing horribly at it, especially when it comes to understanding logical fallacies, particularly False Equivalence and anything relating to the Mean.

They also tended to misuse and reappropriate terms, most basically coming to the conclusion that they were "Equity" Feminists, which they defined as meaning "Working towards equality for both genders". You're an Egalitarianist! They were more interested in clinging to a label than meaning something. More interested in being seen as radical than being radical.

Most of the ones I've met irl are ok, so I guess it's just the internet letting people be jerks again,GITDWT etc, like that youtube comments on that kickstarter video (Actually, that's kind of a good example of some of them, and the Escapist panel a while ago on women in games was good too).

 

[Loonyyy]

Yup, have to confess, totally not getting the furore over the new Tomb Raider. Seems like games devs are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Oh yeah. Everyone's looking to be offended rather than actually trying to be considerate. There's plenty of offensive rubbish out there, but instead we look for meaning where there isn't. There's really nothing to the Tomb Raider thing, and the Hitman trailer's simply a poorly considered PR move, considering most people's attitude to violence towards women, and sex in games.

 

[Oirish_Martin]

Totally fair. The most of them I've encountered have been on the net, and I'm singularly unimpressed by their net presence. Even some more reasonable sites like the posted Manboobz one

I would not consider Manboobz to be a reasonable site.

It's like the ShitRedditSays subreddit, which has taken to policing men's rights threads among others. It's not a place for serious argument, it's for people to circle-jerk over how offended they are (although arguably some of the MRA subreddits are like that. Nothing wrong with that per se, they certainly have every right to do so, but it's hardly the most reasonable place to be.

 

[Loonyyy]

Totally fair. The most of them I've encountered have been on the net, and I'm singularly unimpressed by their net presence. Even some more reasonable sites like the posted Manboobz one

I would not consider Manboobz to be a reasonable site.

It's like the ShitRedditSays subreddit, which has taken to policing men's rights threads among others. It's not a place for serious argument, it's for people to circle-jerk over how offended they are (although arguably some of the MRA subreddits are like that. Nothing wrong with that per se, they certainly have every right to do so, but it's hardly the most reasonable place to be.

Serious argument != Reasonable.

I was referring to both the blog part and the community.
The blog, pretty good, guys reasonably reasonable and rational. Discussion or respect isn't required in my mind for reason. He's not a misandrist or a misogynist, so I'd be happy to say he's reasonable, and not terribly objectionable.

The forums were terrible, and disappointed me, being largely a group of people who'd had a basic education in critical thinking, (Too basic), and then proceeded to fail in a general circle of patting themselves on the back, and degenerating the word feminist until it meant "Person who respects everyone". While they were mostly good on the note of not wanting to remove genitals, they seemed to be on the poor note of not knowing what they were talking about, which bummed me out.

So I guess by reasonable I mean not "DivineFemitheist" crazy, or Dworkin (Or whatever her name was) level of insane.