Games and storys....are we doing it wrong?

[Vault101]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.347456-Jaffe-Game-Execs-Need-a-BS-Filter

so this article popped up today

basically a guy says a bunch of stuff which comes down the to the point at the end

lot of these people will say 'I have something to say, I have a story to tell.' If you've really got something inside of you that's so powerful, like a story you've got to share or a philosophy about man's place in the universe, why in the fuck would you choose the medium that has historically, continually been the worst medium to express philosophy, story and narrative?" [/I]

and this obviously got people talking

personally I find it dissapointing that somone from inside the industry has this kind of attitude (and is being this cynical and "why should we bother"?)

I mean of coarse I find story very important in a game. alot of people here would agree, but then you hear people say games are generally just bad at stories...

so I guess what Im saying is what does a "story" in a game actually mean? some people use "context" instead of story

and generally do you think stoys in games are just plain bad? because personally I dont

 

[Vault101]

Stop listening to the fanboys and trying to make them happy. Every person thinks they can write it better and that couldn't be further from the truth. Really think it depends on what your playing. Great story doesn't need to be complicated to be fantastic. Ever since Pyramid Head made an apperance in Silent Hill 5, I have had the urge to punch a nerd in the balls.

interesting....

the guy in question was an actual developer or somthing..though (Id be interested to know what games he's worked on)

mabye we shouldnt compare the way game stories work to the way other mediums work...like massive open worlds and non-scripted events are somthing unique to games

 

[Savagezion]

Honestly, I don't think the stories in games are bad, but instead the presentation is off most of the time. The dialogue is usually more about player progression and ends up being fluff or filler, not story progression or character evolution. What you say doesn't matter as much as what you choose to say. Because of this, dialogue can often be seen as:

Option 1 = Dialogue 1 > Effect 1
Option 2 = Dialogue 2 > Effect 2
Option 3 = Dialogue 3 > Effect 3

They all having specific effects that are more important than the actual character response. I actually liked this about Mass Effect. Mass Effect's dialogue didn't have different effects other than steering the conversation. This of course was thrown out the window of overall story thanks to the Para/Ren polarity. Alpha Protocol tried something similar but seeing +1's and -1's popping up completely undermined the point of it. The player would say "I want that character to like me" and chose those options or said "I want to be a renegade" so they chose those options. This completely pulls any real connection to the dialogue out of the writing and pulls the player character into shallow realms.

The games that tend to give the best stories tend to be the ones that take the player's control of dialogue away. Shadow of the Colossus, Uncharted, Red Dead, etc. That isn't to say dialogue options can't be added in without shattering the story. The important thing is if you want the story to have any weight, you have to quit making the dialogue so polarized with clear outcomes. Make the player have to weigh what they are saying/agreeing to and what the repercussions might be.

As well, try to figure out how to tell the story while I am playing. I don't want a long cutscene, but I don't want a rushed bumpy dialogue sequence for the sake of letting me get back to playing either. Arkham Asylum did this wonderfully and I understand that not all games need walkie-talkies. Compare how RDR had you speaking on your way to missions often and Skyrim had fluff filled dialogue scenes which were proceeded by the player having to go to the point of interest. Often NPCs asked after the long dialogue scene in Skyrim, if you wanted to travel together (which they would not say a word along the way) or split up and not have to escort them.

 

[Freechoice]

Jaffe's a douche, but God of War was pretty good.

I will say it a thousand times over. A programmer is not a writer. This is why I never see programs that work with game development having writer positions.

 

[Zhukov]

"Storys"?

...

Anyway...

I think games could have great stories. Hell, they could have the best stories.

However, they don't. On average, the stories in games are utterly fucking abysmal. Even disregarding the ones that have no story at all, 90% are on the level of The Expendables. Even worse, this seems to have led to gamers having abysmally low standards to match. Most of the stuff we hail as brilliant is barely worth the title of average. Try telling someone who reads good books or watches good movies that Uncharted has a great story. They will laugh in your miserable face, and rightly so.

Some of the reasons for this:

- Storytelling, funnily enough, is really hard. Many game story writers are hacks, plain and simple. Hell, a lot of them aren't even writers at all, just programmers with delusions of talent.

- Most games are built around a blunt power fantasy. They're more concerned with making the player's balls feel big than constructing a decent narrative.

- Games are a business and good stories don't translate into sales. You could spend years putting together an intricate, spell-binding, heart warming tale of elation, tragedy and everything in between, rich with profound philosophical insights and capable of making jaded critics burst into tears. Come launch day it will get crushed by Shoot Man 9 and +1 Strength Adventures in Totally-Not-Middle-Earth. Your publisher, if you have one, will not be pleased.

- Developers still aren't sure how to meld story and gameplay. Often they're kept separate, with all the story progression taking place during non-interactive cutscenes and dialogue, constantly interrupted by the player going on a protracted murder spree for no reason other than it being expected of a game. Other times they're in conflict with one another, y'know, like when your regenerating character can shrug off bullets in gameplay but then gets shot once in a cutscene and suddenly it's a big deal.

Now, before people start hurling their favourite "brilliant" story-based games at me, yes, I know there are some decent ones out there and I love them for it. I love Bioshock for it's narrative and setting, I love the Mass Effect games for their characters, I love Shadow of the Colossus for reasons I'm not quite sure about.

But damn if you don't have to laboriously sift through acres of steaming manure to find the worthwhile stuff.

 

[Vault101]

"Storys"?

...

Anyway...

I think games could have great stories. Hell, they could have the best stories.

However, they don't. On average, the stories in games are utterly fucking abysmal. Even disregarding the ones that have no story at all, 90% are on the level of The Expendables. .

really? I dont think its as bad as your making it out to be

while its no so much the same thing here...mabye its looking at it the wrong way

like portal...portal is brilliant in so many ways, and it couldnt work as well as a book or movie

 

[Zhukov]

really? I dont think its as bad as your making it out to be

while its no so much the same thing here...mabye its looking at it the wrong way

like portal...portal is brilliant in so many ways, and it couldnt work as well as a book or movie

Uh... I must admit I'm not quite sure what you're saying with that second line.

As for Portal, sure, I agree, it's brilliant. If every game story was that good then you would never see me whining. Hell, if half - even a third - of game stories were that good I would promptly shut my mouth.

Thing is, they aren't that good. For every Portal I can name ten games with lousy stories.

 

[Vault101]

really? I dont think its as bad as your making it out to be

while its no so much the same thing here...mabye its looking at it the wrong way

like portal...portal is brilliant in so many ways, and it couldnt work as well as a book or movie

Uh... I must admit I'm not quite sure what you're saying with that second line.

As for Portal, sure, I agree, it's brilliant. If every game story was that good then you would never see me whining. Hell, if half - even a third - of game stories were that good I would promptly shut my mouth.

Thing is, they aren't that good. For every Portal I can name ten games with lousy stories.

what I ment was I think people somtimes think of game stories the same way you think of movie/book storys

and when you apply it in the same way...you get Yakuza...a game that probably had an amazing story but was like a movie with gameplay cut and pasted in

where as portal 1 and 2 are the perfect example of a game story on its own the two theing gel together perfectly, that cant be compared to a book or movie

like assasins creed mabye, the animus, its presentation..all brilliant

 

[sketch_zeppelin]

Well theres a couple of ways of answering this. Are we talking about the story that the writers put forth that plays out of the course of the game? in which case i've played a few games that have a quite good stories but alot that seem to have almost none at all

or do they?

mabey the story isn't about the plot that ties you to the game but the gameplay its self. In which case the quality of the story depends entirely up to you. Do you dick around or go striaght to the objective? How do you dispactch your foes? Was there ever a time where you came within a straight pube of dying only to some how survive?

I think the writing in games just serves as a framing device and the story is written by us as we play. In which case they could very well be the best stories ever told because even though they're set in some far off place and time and told through people we will never meet each one is highly personal because how we play makes that experince unique to us.

 

[Zhukov]

what I ment was I think people somtimes think of game stories the same way you think of movie/book storys

and when you apply it in the same way...you get Yakuza...a game that probably had an amazing story but was like a movie with gameplay cut and pasted in

where as portal 1 and 2 are the perfect example of a game story on its own the two theing gel together perfectly, that cant be compared to a book or movie

like assasins creed mabye, the animus, its presentation..all brilliant

Ah.

Yeah, I agree. Developers, at least the vast majority of them, are still struggling to find a way to construct stories that incorporate gameplay and interactivity rather than chafe against them. Plus, I have a nasty little suspicion that most of them aren't trying to.

On the other hand, just because it's a game doesn't mean they're allowed to forget the fundamental stuff like character development and pacing and whatnot. An inexcusable amount of games lack those basic elements.

PS. I am sorely tempted to call you out on referring to AC as "brilliant". I mean... really?

 

[Joccaren]

Guy is an idiot.

Play Bioshock. Tell me it would have been better as a movie. Play Mass Effect, Or Dragon Age. Such games would be terrible as movies. IMO, Gaming is the BEST medium for telling stories on, as it has many more opportunities than film or books to exploit. It also gets you the most engaged in your character by the virtue that the character is you.
Honestly, since I started gaming and playing story driven games, I have watched maybe 5 movies, been disappointed by 3, one of which because it wasn't as good as the game it was based off. I have read 1 book, and found it somewhat underwhelming. Games>Other when it comes to stories for me.
IDK, maybe this guy has only played games with mediocre stories, like CoD, BF3 or 90% of first person shooters. Really though, it is rare I play a game and say 'I wish there was a movie of this for me to watch' (The exception being ToR cinematics. Make a movie of that and take my money). I almost always see some TV show and say 'Wish there was a game like that' though.

 

[Wolfhowl the shadow lurker]

fallout 3 tells a story that works best as a video game as you have to try to live in the unforgiveing world if fallout 3 was a book or a film it would have been like the road not a bad film but better as a game

but games...games never change

 

[TheVioletBandit]

R.A. Salvatore < (I think that's how you spell it.) wrote the story for "Reckoning, Kingdom of Amalur" and I think it's quite good. The people that complain or say that it's to hard to write a good story for a game are just making an excuse for why THEIR so bad at it.

 

[Freechoice]

where as portal 1 and 2 are the perfect example of a game story on its own the two theing gel together perfectly, that cant be compared to a book or movie

like assasins creed mabye, the animus, its presentation..all brilliant

Don't you remember those sections in Portal 2 where the narrative would interrupt the gameplay? Like the Part Where He Kills You and Wheatley monologues for a good while and you just sort of stand there?

Or those segments in Assassin's Creed where you take a break from the badass Arabic/Italian killer to be Nolan North? That's more Ubisoft using pseudo-science to faff about instead of just having an engrossing storyline about assassins vs. templars.

mabey the story isn't about the plot that ties you to the game but the gameplay its self. In which case the quality of the story depends entirely up to you. Do you dick around or go striaght to the objective? How do you dispactch your foes? Was there ever a time where you came within a straight pube of dying only to some how survive?

Yes.

 

[BreakfastMan]

I would say that a "story" in a game provides context to the events of the game while providing meaning to each of the player's actions and events in the game.

On average? Yeah, most game stories are pretty terrible. Both because A: most games go without professional writers, which obviously hurts the quality of the story, and B: few developers have discovered how to tell a story in a game well. It is not just sandwiching blocks of cutscenes or text between gameplay, which is unfortunately what most developers try. Not to say that cutscenes are bad (they are just one tool in the toolbox), but they need to be supported by other things. Most developers have not figured this out yet. I think the medium is still in it's growing phase of learning how to tell stories. Same thing happened with film, television, and radio, and I think that gaming, like those mediums, will eventually figure it all out.

 

[The Madman]

Games are an interesting beast story-wise because they allow the story to be interactive as opposed to movies or books. They allow for consumers to view a story from multiple angle and to make the story their own! It's fantastic.

Problem is that on one hand story is very rarely the focus of a game and thus half the time written by someone with little concept of narrative structure who's only working on the story to get it out of the way, and on the other hand even when some developers to take story into account they tend to treat it like a familiar movie or book rather than exploring the options available within games. Hell, just look at David Jaffe's own projects and you'll see in terms of story they're clearly done with movie in mind rather than 'game'. God of War for example tends to follow the gameplay, cinematic, gameplay, cinematic, gameplay formula where the story and game are distinctly separate with the story being told movie style through cinematics and dialogue and the actual game part it's own thing as well. Not saying they're bad necessarily, but as far as the possibilities of storytelling through gaming go it's pretty unimaginative and typical of the gaming genre.

A good example meanwhile of story being portrayed in a uniquely game way would be Portal and Portal 2. Valve in general are quite good at that actually: Half Life's story for example is told almost entirely through the environments you explore, a concept unique to gaming. It's pretty clever, not everyone's cup o tea, but clever. And that's only one way to explore story and game meshing together! Another way it to make things interactive like rpg often try to do: give the player an experience they're capable of altering and by so doing make their own.

Honestly I'm really excited to see where games go in terms of story, the possibilities are countless.