Games and storys....are we doing it wrong?

[CrystalShadow]

He might have a point if by story you restrict yourself to traditional notions of narrative.

But, those are inherently linear, so of course an interactive environment is kind of at odds with that idea.

However, I think games have a great potential to examine a concept from multiple angles.

Like, instead of saying:

"This is a story about a hero who saves the universe", which is what books, plays and films might do...

We can say this instead.

"This is an exploration of what is possible if you task someone with saving the universe from this kind of threat."

It's a scenario, rather than a story.

The difference is basically the difference between going from a one dimensional shape, to a two dimensional one.

You no longer have a fixed story, but a range of possible stories that could all happen.

But... For this to work as a concept, you have to let go of a few things.
Like forcing a specific narrative out of it.

You can give shape to the scenario, and encourage certain directions by what you choose to make possible, and what you don't...

But you can't force a specific narrative on it, because then, yes, you are sort of using the abilities of gaming badly.

Even the most linear of games is a study in choice, and alternatives. Even if those choices are very restricted.

You simply end up with a linear chain of very small scenarios.
You can do whatever within those scenarios, but they are joined together in an inflexible manner.

An open world game is almost the opposite. One huge scenario, with smaller, more restricted parts strewn about almost at random.

A game is a good choice for exploring a story if you have multiple perspectives to show, perhaps less so if you have one, and only one way you want something to work, but regardless I would think it's a bit of an over-statement being made here.

 

[Gatx]

It's a case by case thing. I mean, the story of Shadow of the Colossus just can't be experienced any other way in my opinion, but the Modern Warfare series could easily be a movie. As for a philosophy, an idea, I think a game can get that across better than anything else, letting someone actually experience it quickly and effectively, as opposed to writing down a manifesto for fanatics and intellectuals to dig into.

 

[Bostur]

storywriters should look at other mediums to tell their story.

my problem with that is it feels like saying "yeah, it doesnt work, why bother?"

Why is that a problem? There are several great artforms that aren't particularly well suited at storytelling. Paintings and music comes to mind. They tell something, but it usually isn't what we would call a traditional story. In my mind games do something else, something different than what traditional stories do. Isn't that partly why it can be considered a unique medium?

 

[Zen Toombs]

-stuff-

Good topic. I will say that it was done before [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.345764-Games-Hurt-Stories-Stories-Hurt-Games#13828822], but I feel that the thread died before its time.

OT: While the stories of most games are pretty bad, the stories of most movies and books are terrible as well. Games are a unique medium that can tell a story in a unique way, one that other mediums can never hope to accomplish. It's like Watchmen - from a story and artistic standpoint, the comic was much better than the movie, because it played to the strengths of the medium. The movie, however, did not.

 

[Hosker]

Books are better devices for telling stories, but that's not to say games are bad. I think they need cutscenes or at least a lot of dialogue to work well, though.

 

[Domehammer]

Some of my biggest annoyances with games in story telling for myself are cut scenes not made using game or using game and showing things the player can NEVER do. Really player character moving and talking in a cut scene made with game is fine but when player character does a awesome combat move that is crossing line. Opening cut scene for AC: Revelations I actually hated it. Sure it was action scene telling story but would of been better if it was done in actual game. I wasn't caring about story at end of cut scene I was mashing buttons to see if I could skip it.

Though I probably just am to hard on cut scenes ruining story for myself.

 

[krazykidd]

Guy is an idiot.

Play Bioshock. Tell me it would have been better as a movie. Play Mass Effect, Or Dragon Age. Such games would be terrible as movies. IMO, Gaming is the BEST medium for telling stories on, as it has many more opportunities than film or books to exploit. It also gets you the most engaged in your character by the virtue that the character is you.
Honestly, since I started gaming and playing story driven games, I have watched maybe 5 movies, been disappointed by 3, one of which because it wasn't as good as the game it was based off. I have read 1 book, and found it somewhat underwhelming. Games>Other when it comes to stories for me.
IDK, maybe this guy has only played games with mediocre stories, like CoD, BF3 or 90% of first person shooters. Really though, it is rare I play a game and say 'I wish there was a movie of this for me to watch' (The exception being ToR cinematics. Make a movie of that and take my money). I almost always see some TV show and say 'Wish there was a game like that' though.

Dude a couple of examples doesn't prove him wrong. It just proved that games are capable but most games don't. I think he has a point though . I mean. For me personally story is very important . Most stories in video games are mediocre at best . A few games have exceptional stories . I just thinking video game writers need to step up their game if they want to be taken seriously. This is not to say a game can't be fun with a bad story, but a fun game with a good story would be better . And yes writing a good story is hard i know, but are the writers really trying to write a good story? Or are they just trying to make it coherent?

 

[Master-Jedi]

I think its more a matter of perspective. Not all movies and books have a good story. I mean look at the twilight books, transformers films and horrible horrible television shows like star trek: enterprise. Video games are not a inferior device for telling stories, but due to the fact that there will always be crap and video games are a newer format it might feel that way.

 

[Vault101]

storywriters should look at other mediums to tell their story.

my problem with that is it feels like saying "yeah, it doesnt work, why bother?"

Why is that a problem? There are several great artforms that aren't particularly well suited at storytelling. Paintings and music comes to mind. They tell something, but it usually isn't what we would call a traditional story. In my mind games do something else, something different than what traditional stories do. Isn't that partly why it can be considered a unique medium?

Im still not buying the "horrbile" storys thing..I mean OK I can get that its not quite on par with the best of what other mediums have to offer...but you still have your horrible books and crappy movies..games are somtimes better

if your talking about playing to the strengths of the medium..then yes I can get that, like (I hate to keep repeating myself) Portal or Bioshock or even somthing like Fallout 3/NV

it somtimes annoying me how games keep getting compared to other mediums (like movies) I dont think that comparison is fair, you try and aproach a game story like you would a movie (more or less) and it doesnt work

what Im saying is, if Im going to play a game I want "context" I want there to be a point to what Im doing and I like there to be some kind of payoff...basically I want story

 

[Vault101]

"Storys"?

...

Anyway...

I think games could have great stories. Hell, they could have the best stories.

However, they don't. On average, the stories in games are utterly fucking abysmal. Even disregarding the ones that have no story at all, 90% are on the level of The Expendables. Even worse, this seems to have led to gamers having abysmally low standards to match. Most of the stuff we hail as brilliant is barely worth the title of average. Try telling someone who reads good books or watches good movies that Uncharted has a great story. They will laugh in your miserable face, and rightly so.

Some of the reasons for this:

- Storytelling, funnily enough, is really hard. Many game story writers are hacks, plain and simple. Hell, a lot of them aren't even writers at all, just programmers with delusions of talent.

- Most games are built around a blunt power fantasy. They're more concerned with making the player's balls feel big than constructing a decent narrative.

- Games are a business and good stories don't translate into sales. You could spend years putting together an intricate, spell-binding, heart warming tale of elation, tragedy and everything in between, rich with profound philosophical insights and capable of making jaded critics burst into tears. Come launch day it will get crushed by Shoot Man 9 and +1 Strength Adventures in Totally-Not-Middle-Earth. Your publisher, if you have one, will not be pleased.

- Developers still aren't sure how to meld story and gameplay. Often they're kept separate, with all the story progression taking place during non-interactive cutscenes and dialogue, constantly interrupted by the player going on a protracted murder spree for no reason other than it being expected of a game. Other times they're in conflict with one another, y'know, like when your regenerating character can shrug off bullets in gameplay but then gets shot once in a cutscene and suddenly it's a big deal.

Now, before people start hurling their favourite "brilliant" story-based games at me, yes, I know there are some decent ones out there and I love them for it. I love Bioshock for it's narrative and setting, I love the Mass Effect games for their characters, I love Shadow of the Colossus for reasons I'm not quite sure about.

But damn if you don't have to laboriously sift through acres of steaming manure to find the worthwhile stuff.

Basically this. All of it.

For instance, the best of Mass Effect has nothing on the best of Star Trek (especially TNG). Mass Effect is just another power fantasy that happens to be set in space. It basically goes "you are awesome, go kick some alien ass cuz you're the only one who can...that's how awesome you are!".

OP mentioned Portal. Although a very good example of fusing narrative and gameplay, Portal still feels very isolated/ reductionist. Maybe it derives most of its strength from being such a limited and controlled environment and experience.


.

yeah...but

Mass effect also has memorable charachters and a reasonably well fleshed out world, ok yeah the power fantasy thing is there (not such a fan of power fantays, much more empowering to feel like the underdog)

personally though, I dont think every game has to take the "half life" aproach (which I know your probably not saying but still)

 

[CatmanStu]

-Great post about inherrant difficulties to marketing a good story and why MOST games stories suck donkey dick-

- Great response about how games have an opportunity to give a directed narrative rather than a spoon fed one and the problem of delivering a good story in an industry obsessed with violence-

These two comments have quite nicely sum up my current feelings on state of the industry. One thing I would add to these comments is that the label of "game" has to evolve into a broader, more encompassing bracket of labels that are better than the ones we currently have.

I would classify a game as something that gives you a set of tools to use in a competitive environment with the goal being to achieve victory; There are two words in that description that are counter intuative to the traditional way of telling a story, competitive and achieve. Although I accept that in the long term the ideal would be an evolution of mechanics and storytelling that find common ground on the way, in the short term it would be beneficial to get rid of the established catagories (RPG, FPS, RTS, etc.) in favour of broader terms that speak to a games intent rather than genre.

If, for example, we had a catagory of Interactive Story then we would get Heavy Rain, Uncharted, and Call of Duty all competing against against each other. If we had Reflex Combat then Uncharted and CoD would be in this as well. The point of this would be that a game that focusses on telling a good story like Heavy Rain would not be ostracised due to having none of the things that are traditionally associated with good games.

 

[Joccaren]

Dude a couple of examples doesn't prove him wrong. It just proved that games are capable but most games don't. I think he has a point though . I mean. For me personally story is very important . Most stories in video games are mediocre at best . A few games have exceptional stories . I just thinking video game writers need to step up their game if they want to be taken seriously. This is not to say a game can't be fun with a bad story, but a fun game with a good story would be better . And yes writing a good story is hard i know, but are the writers really trying to write a good story? Or are they just trying to make it coherent?

His point boils down to 'Games can't have good stories', 'Games are the wrong medium to put a story on' and in the end 'Games shouldn't have stories'. First: Flat out wrong. Games CAN have good stories. Second: Up to opinion. I prefer my stories in games, even if he doesn't. Third: Wrong. Considering many people these days play for the story, removing the story would be a bad business decision when trying to market to those people, but for things like CoD it probably wouldn't matter so much - though that boils into the 'Multiplayer focused games shouldn't have single player' argument.
I often play for the story, and yes most games are mediocre, that does not mean the entire medium is not a medium for stories.
The problem I find with stories in games isn't that they can't be done - but that rather than make an interesting and semi-complex story, they try to appeal to the masses who will buy their game. Devs seem to think that people just want an easy to understand story, that acts as a backdrop to them shooting/stabbing/kicking things. Maybe it is what most people want, but it is that sort of mentality that I think leads to a lot of the mediocre stories we see.

Now, I will agree in general that games have mediocre at best stories. I will also agree that in general publishers aren't interested in good stories when it comes to selling games. What I do not agree with is him ignoring the potential that games actually offer for storytelling.

 

[Manji187]

I would classify a game as something that gives you a set of tools to use in a competitive environment with the goal being to achieve victory; There are two words in that description that are counter intuative to the traditional way of telling a story, competitive and achieve.

I agree with the gist of it, although I would've used different words.

A game is basically an obstacle course and you have to progress through it. You either fail (and try again), or you succeed and progress (until there is nowhere to progress to; the end). Where a game narrative differs fundamentally from an organic story (the ones found in books and movies) is the possibility of brute force trial and error and min-maxing (optimizing skills and gear) = interactivity through gameplay.

Picked the wrong option in a dialog tree? Reload a previous save. Want to have an easy time in Fallout 3? Pick these traits/ perks....don't pick those.

An organic story has a constant uninterrupted flow...if a character fails in some way it often feels natural and the story continues (consequences/ plot twists). In games...failure is only a temporary, voluntary setback. Or it is forced onto you through a cutscene. Either the player is too powerful (saving, reloading to his/ her heart's content) or completely powerless (railroaded by the game).

The fundamental problem with game narrative is that failure is not an option really, it is merely a temporary interruption of your progress. Commander Shepard is dead (really dead, not fake dead)? Well he/ she can't be dead now, can he/ she? That's not the story!

I have never played a game in which I failed through my own actions and were allowed to continue, accepting/ facing the consequences. I was either dead and had to reload a save or the game made me fail deliberately (for instance, those JRPG bosses that are unbeatable the first time around).

I really don't know if games can have an organic story flow. Maybe the obstacle course/ success-failure structure by nature does not allow it.

 

[Charli]

Wedging the story seemlessly around the gameplay is very very challenging but not impossible, I ignored what he said, he's just jaded by exec's ragging on his day. I don't blame the guy for making such a generalist statement.

 

[Vegosiux]

They are plain bad in most games. However, that doesn't mean that it's always the case or that things can't get better.

Well, case in point, stories are plain bad in most movies, books and other entertainment media too, so I don't see why people single out games.

The problem is that so many writers try too hard to make their stories good and epic, so all they accomplish is making themselves and their work look pretentious.

 

[Manji187]

I would classify a game as something that gives you a set of tools to use in a competitive environment with the goal being to achieve victory; There are two words in that description that are counter intuative to the traditional way of telling a story, competitive and achieve.

I agree with the gist of it, although I would've used different words.

A game is basically an obstacle course and you have to progress through it. You either fail (and try again), or you succeed and progress (until there is nowhere to progress to; the end). Where a game narrative differs fundamentally from an organic story (the ones found in books and movies) is the possibility of brute force trial and error and min-maxing (optimizing skills and gear) = interactivity through gameplay.

Picked the wrong option in a dialog tree? Reload a previous save. Want to have an easy time in Fallout 3? Pick these traits/ perks....don't pick those.

An organic story has a constant uninterrupted flow...if a character fails in some way it often feels natural and the story continues (consequences/ plot twists). In games...failure is only a temporary, voluntary setback. Or it is forced onto you through a cutscene. Either the player is too powerful (saving, reloading to his/ her heart's content) or completely powerless (railroaded by the game).

The fundamental problem with game narrative is that failure is not an option really, it is merely a temporary interruption of your progress. Commander Shepard is dead (really dead, not fake dead)? Well he/ she can't be dead now, can he/ she? That's not the story!

I have never played a game in which I failed through my own actions and were allowed to continue, accepting/ facing the consequences. I was either dead and had to reload a save or the game made me fail deliberately (for instance, those JRPG bosses that are unbeatable the first time around).

I really don't know if games can have an organic story flow. Maybe the obstacle course/ success-failure structure by nature does not allow it.

*cough* *cough*

If you have a PS3, you have to get this.

Sadly, I do not. I guess I'll have to check a Let's Play or something.

Some praise this game into the sky, others refer to it as QTE hell. A love it or hate it kinda game, huh?