Games where neither character is right

[EyeReaper]

First thing that pops into my mind is Saints Row 2, in which you try your very best to out-asshole everyone not in your gang. Not a single person can say that the boss of the Third Street Saints is a good person, he/she/both is a sociopathic mass murdering hedonist. This is the guy who replaces tattoo ink with nuclear waste and drives around spraying shit everywhere in a septic truck.

Besides that? well, Any game with a moral choice system, I guess, Like Infamous. Evil cole is a monster.

 

[Moloch Sacrifice]

The worst that happened to the geth was they were victims of an attempted genocide. The Quarians however had billions of innocent non-combatants slaughtered, lost family and friends, were booted off their homeworld and banned from the galactic community by virtue of their race.

Can you please explain what the difference here is, other than the fact that the Geth were successful and the Quarians were not? Genocide includes the murder of non-combatants, which 100% of the Geth were before they were attacked. Surely this is an indication that each race is equally bad, and that the Geth are not deserving of this level of demonisation you attribute to them?

I would argue that even by the time of the events of Mass Effect 2, the Geth still did not fully understand individuality.

In which case that would simply make them unbelievably stupid.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that because the Geth, as a newly emerged Artificial Intelligence, were not yet capable of comprehending a type of consciousness entirely unlike their own, they deserve to be targeted by the Quarians?

It is quite clearly stated that the vast majority of Geth were involved in agricultural and construction work; not capacities that require a great deal of emotional intelligence or empathy. The Geth did not make a sudden leap from dumb machine to a fully sapient AI capable of empathy, etc. one of the major points of the Quarian/Geth campaign in ME3 was that they were trying to become fully adapted AI's through the assimilation of Reaper code. If they had still failed to develop this level of understanding or intelligence after several hundred years of improvement and development since the Morning War, what chance did the early Geth have?

 

[Silvanus]

In which case that would simply make them unbelievably stupid.

They have the time, ability and resources to understand it they just simply refuse.

Would you say you fully understand collective consciousness?

Nope.

Mass Efrfect has simply hijacked an already popular sci-fi debate and tackled it terribly.

You seem to have missed my point.

It has sparked genuine debate. It's done an impressive thing, which is something relatively few games succeed in doing.

I say this as an Asimov fan.

Wiping out 99% of the population and killing billions of non-combatants was in no necessary to defeat the quarians. That is the MAIN point I have been making the whole time.

I agree with you on your main point, by the way.

 

[Krais101]

For the Geth/Quarian war, I would like to propose a hypothetical situation. Nil, you mentioned the possiblity them looking at the data and history. Well let's thing what that would show. If the Quarians had history even remotely similar to human history then they would of probably had a lot of wars between old enemies, each time with a high death toll. Then imagine they look at the other races as well. The Rachni, the Krogans and the Genophage, the Turians (such a militaristic culture must of had a very similar cycle of wars to us) and all the other races. All this data telling them one thing, if they live, they will attack again. And so, as emotionless AI would do, they did the maths. Overall killing them all would result in them killing less over time. Now of course to us that seems wrong, but the Geth lack the emotions and morality that inform that decision. And so they eliminated them all in the misguided believe that genocide was better than a cycle of war. Of course that doesn't explain why they didn't chase them and eliminate them completely. Perhaps they believed, like the creators of the Genophage did with the Krogan, that a reduced population would result in the Quarians being too scared to attack as the value of an individual life is higher than the original war.

I mean that's just my theory, but to me it explains it. I don't think it JUSTIFIES it, but I think it explains it.

 

[duchaked]

What got me onto this line of thought is Sheperd Book in Firefly. I always think it's a great ability for a writer when they can write someone with religious views other than their own and not have them ultimately be wrong. But even better than that, Joss Whedon allowed Book to have the dignity that Book believes his religion will give him. It's such an easy trap to be religious and write an atheist whose ultimately short-sighted or stupid or lacking a special something in his life. It's a good thing to be able to write one instead whose thought about his life choices and lives his life in a way that he's generally happy with

I do like for the most part how Book worked as a character, but the easy trap you talk about definitely goes both ways. There were some moments where I felt the writing for Book's character were a bit spotty, but ultimately it worked because of Book's darker history and how in the end he was a good man and better because of his beliefs. He made for a good counter to Mal (who lost his faith because of his brokenness whereas Book gained his), but both are good men in the same crew/family.

And like all things Firefly...wish they'd been able to continue telling their stories in the show! :c comic books just don't quite cut it lol

 

[BrotherRool]

What got me onto this line of thought is Sheperd Book in Firefly. I always think it's a great ability for a writer when they can write someone with religious views other than their own and not have them ultimately be wrong. But even better than that, Joss Whedon allowed Book to have the dignity that Book believes his religion will give him. It's such an easy trap to be religious and write an atheist whose ultimately short-sighted or stupid or lacking a special something in his life. It's a good thing to be able to write one instead whose thought about his life choices and lives his life in a way that he's generally happy with

I do like for the most part how Book worked as a character, but the easy trap you talk about definitely goes both ways. There were some moments where I felt the writing for Book's character were a bit spotty, but ultimately it worked because of Book's darker history and how in the end he was a good man and better because of his beliefs. He made for a good counter to Mal (who lost his faith because of his brokenness whereas Book gained his), but both are good men in the same crew/family.

And like all things Firefly...wish they'd been able to continue telling their stories in the show! :c comic books just don't quite cut it lol

Oh yeah definitely, I didn't mean to suggest it was a one way thing, it's not even just a religious/areligious thing. Lots of writers really struggle to write someone with the other side of the political spectrum without having them ultimately be mistaken and you even get it a lot with little things, like the character who likes videogames happens to have some arrested development problem without which it's assumed he would have a totally different opinion.

Although more normally you just get a lot of characters where it doesn't even seem like they have a worldview, or it's all a sort of homogenous sameyness. In a lot of videogame plots (the bad ones) it can feel like only the player has any real kind of agency, never mind other characters having an agency which is then treated with respect. (Of course there are plenty of examples of videogames doing this right too which was the point of this thread!)

 

[duchaked]

What got me onto this line of thought is Sheperd Book in Firefly.

"HTTP 404 Not Found" - Now that is a truly inspirational quote. I'm guessing you mean something to do with this quote.

"I've been out of the abbey two days. I've beaten a lawman senseless. Fallen in with criminals. I watched the captain shoot the man I swore to protect. And I'm not even sure if I think he was wrong."

Thanks for finding the quote. Since the original guy is banned I guess it's probably not worthwhile quoting him in?

I think that line is still totally in sync with me, I'm a pretty big Firefly fan and I was individually reviewing each episode when I was first thinking about this and I feel like there was only one time when they didn't write Book properly (which was when River ripped up his bible and he gave a talk about how it didn't matter whether symbols were true or not) and even then, it's possible it's deliberate because it was always hinted that Book wasn't a preacher his whole life and when they revealed his secret that's definitely how it turned out.

When he says the line about "And I'm not even sure if I think he was wrong." he's got a lot of agony in his voice and is clearly being legitimately shaken by events. It's not like he's suddenly cast off everything he had previously thought and he gives it consideration and eventually finds something he's comfortable with instead of say, becoming atheist or whatever.

(and of course it's fine to have characters change and convert/de-convert. You just need to make sure y ou're doing it because that's what's right for the story and not because you writing some Atheist/Christian wishfulfillment fantasy where everyone ends up agreeing with your cunning arguments and becomes more like you)

Oh I just replied to one of your comments, but then I saw this from you and yeah. We were thinking about that same thing haha

I doubt it was done deliberately, but I guess with the character it can work. It's pretty obvious that the writers are coming from the same mindset of Mal when writing the dialogue lol

And I also don't see Book's personal struggle with violence is entirely a religious thing. His conflict might also stem from the fact that he's moved away from a violent past, and reengaging in violence (even in righteous defense of people he loves) can be psychologically jarring. I wouldn't want to reawaken a part of me I'd rather stay away!

But yeah...the characters are real something, eh? =) I guess that's why I love Mass Effect too. The characters are pretty complex if you really look at them

 

[Moloch Sacrifice]

Can you please explain what the difference here is, other than the fact that the Geth were successful and the Quarians were not?

Don't need to because you already have.

Being murdered is worse than having someone attempt to murder you.

How is the attempt to carry out an act better than successfully carrying out an act? A person can still be prosecuted with an equally long sentence for attempted murder, even if they never actually completed the act.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that because the Geth, as a newly emerged Artificial Intelligence, were not yet capable of comprehending a type of consciousness entirely unlike their own, they deserve to be targeted by the Quarians?

In no way shape or form is this even close to what I said and I'm dumbfounded that this is the conclusion you've come to.

Since I've already stated the argument three or so times simply reread what I have actually said.

You said that the Geth have not, whether through negligence or inability, learnt to relate to the Quarian perspective. Since you are clearly greatly in favour of the Quarian position, this would imply that you see this as a valid reason to support the Quarians. I would argue that just because a relatively young race cannot understand a very different set of standards and manner of perception does not change their merit as a species.

Would you say you fully understand collective consciousness?

Completely irrelevant and not necessary. I don't need to 'fully understand' geth psychology to have a basic understanding of how it works just like the geth don't need to 'fully understand' individual consciousness to merely have a grasp of the essentials. Of course the difference between a geth and I is that they can upload themselves to the information network and learn all of this information within moments.

Of course, the only reason you know this about the Geth is because it has been explained by a Geth character, via lengthy exposition. I doubt there were many Quarians willing to explain organic consciousness when they were on a war footing.

I also dispute the idea that the Geth would have had access to the information network. Rannoch, as the capital of a major citadel race (at the time) would have been well connected to the extranet, and the galaxy as a whole. If Geth programs had access to non-Geth systems on Rannoch, then they would have easily been able to infiltrate the extranet and migrate offworld, into the rest of citadel space. This would arguably be a much more effective survival strategy than a 'stand and fight' approach, and would have been more likely given their initial pacifist response. Since Geth are only present beyond he Perseus Veil (until they choose to venture outward), and there is no mention of a mass Geth expansion into the data systems of other races, it can be implied that the Geth did not have access to this vast deposit of millions of years of history that you keep referring to.

 

[duchaked]

What got me onto this line of thought is Sheperd Book in Firefly. I always think it's a great ability for a writer when they can write someone with religious views other than their own and not have them ultimately be wrong. But even better than that, Joss Whedon allowed Book to have the dignity that Book believes his religion will give him. It's such an easy trap to be religious and write an atheist whose ultimately short-sighted or stupid or lacking a special something in his life. It's a good thing to be able to write one instead whose thought about his life choices and lives his life in a way that he's generally happy with

I do like for the most part how Book worked as a character, but the easy trap you talk about definitely goes both ways. There were some moments where I felt the writing for Book's character were a bit spotty, but ultimately it worked because of Book's darker history and how in the end he was a good man and better because of his beliefs. He made for a good counter to Mal (who lost his faith because of his brokenness whereas Book gained his), but both are good men in the same crew/family.

And like all things Firefly...wish they'd been able to continue telling their stories in the show! :c comic books just don't quite cut it lol

Oh yeah definitely, I didn't mean to suggest it was a one way thing, it's not even just a religious/areligious thing. Lots of writers really struggle to write someone with the other side of the political spectrum without having them ultimately be mistaken and you even get it a lot with little things, like the character who likes videogames happens to have some arrested development problem without which it's assumed he would have a totally different opinion.

Although more normally you just get a lot of characters where it doesn't even seem like they have a worldview, or it's all a sort of homogenous sameyness. In a lot of videogame plots (the bad ones) it can feel like only the player has any real kind of agency, never mind other characters having an agency which is then treated with respect. (Of course there are plenty of examples of videogames doing this right too which was the point of this thread!)

Yeah sorry I feel silly cuz right after posting that I saw another one of your comments and replied to that, but took too long

I see a lot of Mass Effect discussion on here too and that's always fun loll...I don't get started that cuz I was supposed to write a paper 4 hours ago x.x

 

[Zhukov]

Wiping out 99% of the population and killing billions of non-combatants was in no necessary to defeat the quarians. That is the MAIN point I have been making the whole time.

Then your main point is wrong.

That 1% formed the Migrant Fleet, repopulated (somewhat), developed the network disruptor weapon and attacked the Geth again, inflicting massive damage and casualties. Killing 99% of their population did not eliminate the Quarian threat.

So not only was it necessary, it turned out to be insufficient.

 

[Zhukov]

Wiping out 99% of the population and killing billions of non-combatants was in no necessary to defeat the quarians. That is the MAIN point I have been making the whole time.

Then your main point is wrong.

That 1% formed the Migrant Fleet, repopulated (somewhat), developed the network disruptor weapon and attacked the Geth again, inflicting massive damage and casualties. Killing 99% of their population did not eliminate the Quarian threat.

Or maybe, just maybe (God forbid) they could try diplomacy before killing billions of innocent non-combatants.

They did try that.

Then the Quarians started killing them.

So not only was it necessary, it turned out to be insufficient.

(To beat a dead analogy)

I take it you believe that because of WWII all the Germans should have been killed after WWI.

In other words, do exactly what the Quarians tried to do?

 

[Something Amyss]

Also another one is Skyes of Arcidia. Your good pirates but your still damn pirates.

You're perfect Mary Sues out to save the world from an evil threat that turns ridiculously campy at a cetain point I won't spoil.

 

[Moloch Sacrifice]

Moloch says the geth "suffered" more, I pointed out why this is obviously false by virtue of the fact that 99% of the quarians died and lost their homeplanet.

Obviously I haven't been clear; I have been trying to establish that the Geth were equally victims as much as the Quarians were. More precisely, I am trying to indicate that the Geth are not as morally wrong as you seem to believe they are, and that it was a much more even affair in terms of who was the perpetrator.

In all honesty, I don't believe either party is so much guilty of war crimes, as of naivety on the part of the Geth, and hysteria on the part of the Quarians. If the Quarians had not panicked and attempted mass genocide on the Geth, they would not have been forced to take up arms. Likewise, if the Geth had more experience with interacting with organics, they would have been able to develop a better strategy than 'kill them all'.

Of course, the only reason you know this about the Geth is because it has been explained by a Geth character, via lengthy exposition. I doubt there were many Quarians willing to explain organic consciousness when they were on a war footing.

Not necessary. They have access to their information network. I've been over this already.

how do we know this? To which lines of dialogue or codex entry are you referring?

1. We already know the geth did infiltrate the extranet via Legion's DLC logs.

If you are referring to the Lair of The Shadow Broker dossiers, then I am afraid you are slightly mistaken. The dossier shows Legion, from the Normandy, is able to access the Extranet in the same way as any other Extranet user could. What it does not show is Geth programs being able to access it from Rannoch, or any other Geth held location.

2. Not being able to move a large body of enemy geth units into Council territory is evidence that they can't access not only the galactic extranet but the local quarian internet too?

Not units, programs. As in, the various different subroutines that together make units such as Legion operate as an individual.
It is clearly stated both in in-game exposition and in he Codex that Geth programs are not attached to a particular physical form, and can move between them as they see fit. Since they consist of many individual programs, rather than the single, monumental quantum computing system that EDI is tied to, there is no reason why they could not flee Rannoch and hide in servers around the galaxy as digital refugees unless they were unable to access the extranet. The only feasible reason that they could not access it is that the Quarians threw up a firewall (or equivalent) to prevent Geth programs from escaping. If this was the case, then it is extremely likely that similar methods were used to protect their own cultural databases as well.

Alternatively, even if they did have access to the local Rannoch internet, why would they even think to look there? Geth do not have a 'culture' as such, even after the development they underwent after the Quarian exodus. Why would they even consider that searching the cultural background of the beings who they have served for every moment of their existence would yield any novel information?
Even if they did so, it is unlikely they would find much referring to individuality; there are several lines of dialogue that suggest that the idea of symbiosis with their planet was a key concept in pre-Migrant Fleet Quarian spirituality. A philosophy that espouses oneness with a greater collective (in this case, the ecosystem of Rannoch) would likely resonate with how the Geth view themselves, or at least be similar enough to cause confusion.

 

[Zhukov]

They did try that.

Then the Quarians started killing them.

It is absurd to believe that whilst they were losing the war they'd continue to fight and refuse any kind of diplomacy.

No, because they chose to flee instead. A reasonable enough course of action.

And the Geth allowed them to do that, incorrectly believing the Quarian threat to have been defeated.

In other words, do exactly what the Quarians tried to do?

Which ones?

Which Quarians you mean?

The vast majority of them. Those that gave the orders. Those that followed them. Those that bore arms. Those that produced arms. Those that produced food to be eaten by those that bore arms. Those that supported those that gave orders, followed orders, bore arms etc etc.