Gaming, Media, Boobies and Poorly Thought-Out Responses: Oh My!

[JSRT]

What do you mean the way women look is more important?

So...what? My gender is reduced to our appearance in your eyes and we have nothing else more important than that.

Am I understanding you right? If that's what you mean that's just INCREDIBLY sexist.


As for the sorceress...I have huge tits irl if I thought that was the problem there would be a lot of self hate going on every time I looked in the mirror.

The problem with the sorceress for me is that she's depicted not as a powerful magic user but as a halloween themed pole dancer. If she had the same proportions but was depicted melting some faces instead of with her stave rammed up her buttcrack then hell I would be totally okay with it. As it is I look between her an the picture of the male sorcerer and I just think...fuck off.

Women can look sexy and attractive without being sexualised to the point they look stupid. Does that make sense?

I wanted to come in here and say something, but then you said basically what I wanted to say but way better. I want to see more women getting interested in games and game development, but stuff like this only serves to further cement the idea that you're stepping into a male hobby rather than something that is more inclusive.

Also, this is the first time I've seen that character and holy shit, ahahahahahaha. That's actually something that made its way into a basically finished video game, fucking lol! Some juvenile delinquent kid in my 5th grade class used to draw girls that looked like that (only without the creepy blank, featureless samefaces and wizard hats), and I think he was actually better at it. I also think he's in jail now. This is amazing.

Wow that must have been an extremely talented 5th grader if he managed to be able to draw on Kamitami's level at that age. It's kind of disappointing when an artist trashes another artist's work in such a immature and juvenile way as you did. ( the last half of your post reads like the average Youtube comment) I would love to see a Gearbox game that artistically looks anywhere near as gorgeous as the average Vanillaware game. Seriously going all the way back to Princess Crown on the Saturn, nothing you guys have produced has looked even close to as good.

The whole manufactured controversy on this game has gotten since the tabloid "journalists" at Kotaku decided to make it an issue is funny. If you look at the designs of all the characters in the game, all the creatures and the games world itself, it's all exaggerated. Male and female character alike. The only two characters that look anything close to normal are the wizard and elf. Yet people tend to focus on that one character for their so called outrage.

[http://s294.photobucket.com/user/Joe_Sinister/media/DC_zps53cff121.jpg.html]
When you look at all the characters in the game it's quite consistent.
Wizard: Hot, prettyboy/bishonen( looks like Sephiroth from FF7)
Sorceress: voluptuous, hot bombshell type
Fighter: armored ( also a pretty boy in pics with his helmet off) huge torso and smaller legs ( there is that exaggeration again)
Elf/Archer: flat chested, nice thighs, fairly conservatively dressed
Dwarf: Again huge torso small likes, muscular as hell
Amazon: Smaller breasts than Sorceress but big ass, thighs. also huge and muscular as hell. ( funny i would think Kamitami would be getting a bit of praise for having a muscular body type woman in there but, whatever,)

Not only is that pretty much a variety of body types represented there, but they are also fantasy archetypes found in various media that he has drawn inspiration from.

Kamitami was quite inspired by traditional fantasy art, he himself stated as much in his letter to that hack Kotaku writer,( where he offered his apologies, even though he didn't have anything to apologize for) from the first time i saw his art for this game i thought about the work of artists like Frank Frazetta. Who for years ad scantily clad well endowed females in his fantasy art, along with muscle dudes, i imagine his art looks like a "5th grader" to you as well?


When did it become a "bad thing" for an artist to have a style? To learn anatomy and exaggerate it as he/she sees fit? What now every game/comic/whatever has to look "realistic"? Especially a game of this kind, side scrolling beat em up. Back in the 90's ( when we still had REAL game journalists) a game like this would have been praised for it's beautiful art and animation, over the top designs weren't seen as a bad thing back then. Artists such as Bengus/CRMK ( the Darkstalkers series and Streetfighter Alpha) , Akiman, and Kinu Nishimura( a female artist who often draws scantily clad warrior femmes as well, see Code of Princess)as well as western artists like Joe Madureira( Battle Chasers and Darksiders) all draw characters with exaggerated anatomy and it looks amazing. I understand if there are some who prefer their characters to look more "grounded" and that's fine, there are plenty of games that have that look. Play one of those, not every art style is meant to appeal to everyone. Oh and next time you want to criticize an artists work, how about you do so like an adult and keep your petty insults to yourself.

You and Jason Schreier go on about how Kamitami is so "immature" while throwing around petty insults like "14 year old" and "5th grader", when you open with that it's pretty clear that you are not interested in an actual discussion. I guess you should maybe do a little growing up before attacking the maturity of others. Just a thought.

 

[teisjm]

I want an intelligent plot. A woman dressing like that to protect herself from danger isn't all that intelligent. It makes the plot stupid. I don't like stupid plots.

Whereas the male wizard, who wraps himself in cloth, is considerably better protected from danger how?
Did i miss some magic aspect of woven fabric?

 

[AndyNPC]

It gets harder with art especially as it gets older, as the societal/cultural context which it was created in (and may have made tons of sense at the time), gets lost on younger generations. Like, you can look at Picasso's Guernica, and maybe love it or hate it for the style. Just as you might hate it or love it for what's expressed in the painting itself, whether or not you know the historical event he was portraying.

In the case of the Sorceress, it makes me sad that there's a missed opportunity by favoring straight up cheesecake when you have such a compelling contrast of nurturing and death themes that could lead to something very creative and memorable.

I'd say just us having this conversation is proof enough that the Sorceress managed to capture the idea her design was going for. It's very thought provoking, and I hope those thoughts will help us come to an agreement in this sexism debate that is popular in game media recently, and maybe even bridge the gap between western and eastern cultural representation in video games. Whether we love it or hate it, I'm sure many of us here will remember it.

Of course the Sorceress is designed to be sexy as well, but that isn't a bad thing. Sexuality is something naturally occurring in our everyday life and it is impossible to ignore; it should come as no surprise that it's represented in art. I don't think her connections to fertility need to made any more explicit either. If someone was able to create the argument in the image I showed you, then that alone proves that there is enough context clues for someone to reach that interpretation.

There's sexy, and then there's needless epic boob proportions. And don't tell me there are clues to her character warranting them, because no one is going to link giant tits to motherly love for the undead because of fertility godesses.

Alright, so, the reason she has mammary-atrocities is because "the functional purpose of breasts...is to provide milk for their offspring"
So firstly that's the creepiest thing I've ever read in the context of a character who raises dead things from the grave. What, her giant mammary-flotillas are representative of the high expertise of her bone-raising abilities? (I just realised I made a pun)

"Kamitani uses this motif for his characters who give life to the dead"
Yup, that's totally the main and only reason he's doing that.

"Kamitani is taking the traditional 'Fertility Goddess' motif of breasts, and applying it to necromancy. That is really cool"
No, it really isn't, it's freakin' creepy. You should never have a human symbol of sex/fertility/life-giving, crank it up to 11, and then add dead things to it.

The Knossos fertility goddess has nice, perky breasts that aren't infringements on my personal space, she's also holding snakes, why can't The Sorceress have been holding snakes? It makes about just as much sense as Triple-inflated water balloons.

And the Artemis statue has a million breasts, why doesn't The Sorceress have that instead? It'd certainly give us a better idea that Kamitani is taking the piss.

"Look at how tenderly she's holding the skul--"
*gigglesnort* okay okay okay, seriously? She's not giving two shits about that skeleton, she's too busy positioning herself so that she can lean back on her cane with her massive arse for counterbalance, while looking at the camera to make sure you're looking at her right. Very motherly.

Of course the Sorceress is designed to be sexy as well, but that isn't a bad thing. Sexuality is something naturally occurring in our everyday life and it is impossible to ignore; it should come as no surprise that it's represented in art. I don't think her connections to fertility need to made any more explicit either. If someone was able to create the argument in the image I showed you, then that alone proves that there is enough context clues for someone to reach that interpretation.

There's sexy, and then there's needless epic boob proportions. And don't tell me there are context clues to her character warranting them, because no one is going to link giant tits to motherly love for the undead because of fertility godesses without looking like they were reaching really far to justify giant tits. And reach they will.
You gonna comment on anything else I wrote, or are we sticking to the "interpretation" argument?

You can't say that there aren't any context clues to support that conclusion, because someone did come to that conclusion. You can't tell someone that they didn't interpret something the way they did, that's up to them. You can interpret the Sorceress as a big titted bimbo if you want, if that's what you see then that's what you should believe.

 

[Abriael]

The point is very simple.

Art is most certainly open to critique, but when people make it into a "problem", you go beyond critique, and you're infringing artistic freedom, and should probably review your priorities in gauging problems.

Or you're just whoring for clicks, like the Kotaku article and then the PA article quite evidently were.

 

[Sepko]

Is this a good enough justification for you, Mr. Art Critic?
http://i.imgur.com/S0lI5HW.jpg

You cant really talk about context if you dont really know anything of the game an the background of the characters. There is a explanation for those "moon-boobs".

Alright, so, the reason she has mammary-atrocities is because "the functional purpose of breasts...is to provide milk for their offspring"
So firstly that's the creepiest thing I've ever read in the context of a character who raises dead things from the grave. What, her giant mammary-flotillas are representative of the high expertise of her bone-raising abilities? (I just realised I made a pun)

"Kamitani uses this motif for his characters who give life to the dead"
Yup, that's totally the main and only reason he's doing that.

"Kamitani is taking the traditional 'Fertility Goddess' motif of breasts, and applying it to necromancy. That is really cool"
No, it really isn't, it's freakin' creepy. You should never have a human symbol of sex/fertility/life-giving, crank it up to 11, and then add dead things to it.

The Knossos fertility goddess has nice, perky breasts that aren't infringements on my personal space, she's also holding snakes, why can't The Sorceress have been holding snakes? It makes about just as much sense as Triple-inflated water balloons.

And the Artemis statue has a million breasts, why doesn't The Sorceress have that instead? It'd certainly give us a better idea that Kamitani is taking the piss.

"Look at how tenderly she's holding the skul--"
*gigglesnort* okay okay okay, seriously? She's not giving two shits about that skeleton, she's too busy positioning herself so that she can lean back on her cane with her massive arse for counterbalance, while looking at the camera to make sure you're looking at her right. Very motherly.

Cool, just go ahead and debunk all of the arguments with a "It's not right because I say so."

Sorry, but a debate runs on arguments and counterarguments, not baseless assertions.

You must've missed that bit where I asked, and I shall quotebox this:

The Knossos fertility goddess has nice, perky breasts that aren't infringements on my personal space, she's also holding snakes, why can't The Sorceress have been holding snakes? It makes about just as much sense as Triple-inflated water balloons.

And the Artemis statue has a million breasts, why doesn't The Sorceress have that instead? It'd certainly give us a better idea that Kamitani is taking the piss.

"Look at how tenderly she's holding the skul--"
*gigglesnort* okay okay okay, seriously? She's not giving two shits about that skeleton, she's too busy positioning herself so that she can lean back on her cane with her massive arse for counterbalance, while looking at the camera to make sure you're looking at her right. Very motherly.

Yes even that last part is a counterargument because I'm remarking on what's actually happening in that picture.

 

[Sepko]

I want an intelligent plot. A woman dressing like that to protect herself from danger isn't all that intelligent. It makes the plot stupid. I don't like stupid plots.

Whereas the male wizard, who wraps himself in cloth, is considerably better protected from danger how?
Did i miss some magic aspect of woven fabric?

Did I miss some magic aspect of ginormous mammaries?

 

[Canton]

There's sexy, and then there's needless epic boob proportions. And don't tell me there are context clues to her character warranting them, because no one is going to link giant tits to motherly love for the undead because of fertility godesses without looking like they were reaching really far to justify giant tits. And reach they will.
You gonna comment on anything else I wrote, or are we sticking to the "interpretation" argument?

What's wrong with epic boob proportions?

Even if the artist just used big boobs for the hell of it, at the end of the day, there's no need to even justify it, there MAY be no ultra profound reason to use big boobs but there's no reason for using any other size either.

 

[Sepko]

You can't say that there aren't any context clues to support that conclusion, because someone did come to that conclusion. You can't tell someone that they didn't interpret something the way they did, that's up to them. You can interpret the Sorceress as a big titted bimbo if you want, if that's what you see then that's what you should believe.

Yeah ok I worded that wrong, it's not that there aren't any context clues, it's that there are only two clues. Two very large, very gravity-defying clues.
Everything else in her character design is incidental and used to justify said two clues.

 

[omega 616]

Sigh...

Why is it always that characters with features associated with sex appeal are seen as an attack against women these days? What happened to the biggest whining over sexually charged characters being a joke about it at worst? Why is sex appeal seen as a negative thing all the sudden?

I miss when videogames were just fun, instead of all this politics bullshit.

Since graphics improved and we can now tell who is a woman and who is a man by more than name, for example if megaman didn't have the "man" at the end there is no way to tell if it's a man or a woman.

Now that graphics can show boobs and muscles, men are walking biceps and women are sticks with 2 watermelons attached. While muscles aren't a part of male sexuality boobs are.

Sex appeal is now seen as a bad thing 'cos instead of just one off characters being dressed provocatively/seductively, there is 1 female per game with her boobs out and adds nothing to the game but eye candy.

(that isn't entirely true, there are games with multiple women with there boobs out, I'm joking. It just feels like every game has 1 female just as eye candy.)

I am one of the people who is bored sick to death of this attitude of "well she is a woman in a game, might as well give her a huge rack and a low cut top".

From the obvious games like dead or alive with it's jiggle physics to games you wouldn't think would be guilty of it ... here is Naomi (who is scientist) in MGS4

 

[The Inquisitive Mug]

Oh look, scores and scores of adults who probably have jobs, and maybe even children, up in arms because someone drew a cartoon of a woman with big tits. There truly is no God.

 

[Sepko]

There's sexy, and then there's needless epic boob proportions. And don't tell me there are context clues to her character warranting them, because no one is going to link giant tits to motherly love for the undead because of fertility godesses without looking like they were reaching really far to justify giant tits. And reach they will.
You gonna comment on anything else I wrote, or are we sticking to the "interpretation" argument?

What's wrong with epic boob proportions?

Even if the artist just used big boobs for the hell of it, at the end of the day, there's no need to even justify it, there MAY be no ultra profound reason to use big boobs but there's no reason for using any other size either.

There are those who say that the actual intent was to satirise the Western fantasy novel covers of old, which you could probably argue for most of the other characters, the Amazon and Dwarf would definitely fit that, being freakishly muscly and all. The Sorceress is just kinda there, though, and people are flocking to hound this design because it's yet another female character to add to the "Really, guys?" list. When you've got a game that has a roster of exaggeratedly designed characters that seem to have some purpose behind them (even the Amazonian), you're gonna have to reeeeaaaally be prepared to explain yourself when you come out with a giant-breasted woman that seems to be giant-breasted for no/extremely flimsy reasons. Because not everybody is gonna be okay with that.

 

[Sepko]

Oh look, scores and scores of adults who probably have jobs, and maybe even children, up in arms because someone drew a cartoon of a woman with big tits. There truly is no God.

Oh look, an adult who hopefully has a job, maybe kids, showing their singularity and coolness at not joining in the rabble, and letting everyone know about it. You are truly an inspiration to us all.

inb4 we start passive-aggressively insult each other in the third person.

 

[The Inquisitive Mug]

Oh look, scores and scores of adults who probably have jobs, and maybe even children, up in arms because someone drew a cartoon of a woman with big tits. There truly is no God.

Oh look, an adult who hopefully has a job, maybe kids, showing their singularity and coolness at not joining in the rabble, and letting everyone know about it. You are truly an inspiration to us all.

inb4 we start passive-aggressively insult each other in the third person.

So my opinion is only valid if I am for or against said issue? If only I would have known sooner that perspective isn't welcome in this discussion.

If you think my position wreaks of coolness, that says more about how you feel than what I said.

 

[AndyNPC]

There's sexy, and then there's needless epic boob proportions. And don't tell me there are context clues to her character warranting them, because no one is going to link giant tits to motherly love for the undead because of fertility godesses without looking like they were reaching really far to justify giant tits. And reach they will.
You gonna comment on anything else I wrote, or are we sticking to the "interpretation" argument?

What's wrong with epic boob proportions?

Even if the artist just used big boobs for the hell of it, at the end of the day, there's no need to even justify it, there MAY be no ultra profound reason to use big boobs but there's no reason for using any other size either.

There are those who say that the actual intent was to satirise the Western fantasy novel covers of old, which you could probably argue for most of the other characters, the Amazon and Dwarf would definitely fit that, being freakishly muscly and all. The Sorceress is just kinda there, though, and people are flocking to hound this design because it's yet another female character to add to the "Really, guys?" list. When you've got a game that has a roster of exaggeratedly designed characters that seem to have some purpose behind them (even the Amazonian), you're gonna have to reeeeaaaally be prepared to explain yourself when you come out with a giant-breasted woman that seems to be giant-breasted for no/extremely flimsy reasons. Because not everybody is gonna be okay with that.

Not everyone has to be okay with it. If you don't like something you shouldn't try to stop others from enjoying it. I'm not going to tell you that you have to like it either, and you don't have to agree with someone's interpretation.

 

[teisjm]

I want an intelligent plot. A woman dressing like that to protect herself from danger isn't all that intelligent. It makes the plot stupid. I don't like stupid plots.

Whereas the male wizard, who wraps himself in cloth, is considerably better protected from danger how?
Did i miss some magic aspect of woven fabric?

Did I miss some magic aspect of ginormous mammaries?

How does the size of her tits have anything to do with how che chooses to dress when going to battle?

I responded to a post implying that her choice of not wearing armor must make her stupid.
Lack of armor represents a choice the character has made in game, titanic knockers doesn't, unless this fantasy world has plastic surgery.

Speaking of huge tits, what does capcha think of huge round things making massive things rise?
"we like the moon"
Well spoken capcha

 

[namewon'tfitin]

You must've missed that bit where I asked, and I shall quotebox this:

The Knossos fertility goddess has nice, perky breasts that aren't infringements on my personal space, she's also holding snakes, why can't The Sorceress have been holding snakes? It makes about just as much sense as Triple-inflated water balloons.

And the Artemis statue has a million breasts, why doesn't The Sorceress have that instead? It'd certainly give us a better idea that Kamitani is taking the piss.

"Look at how tenderly she's holding the skul--"
*gigglesnort* okay okay okay, seriously? She's not giving two shits about that skeleton, she's too busy positioning herself so that she can lean back on her cane with her massive arse for counterbalance, while looking at the camera to make sure you're looking at her right. Very motherly.

Yes even that last part is a counterargument because I'm remarking on what's actually happening in that picture.

1. Why the fuck would a necromancer use snakes .
2. WHY WOULD YOU WANT THAT ?
3. And this is the part you completely disregarded everything. The game is meant to be satirical and flamboyant, exaggerating everything, that includes character poses.
Or are you gonna say that dwarf's EXPLODING KNEES are completely comfortable and the Sorceress is the only one who's silly because *gasp* she has mammaries.

 

[Sepko]

Oh look, scores and scores of adults who probably have jobs, and maybe even children, up in arms because someone drew a cartoon of a woman with big tits. There truly is no God.

Oh look, an adult who hopefully has a job, maybe kids, showing their singularity and coolness at not joining in the rabble, and letting everyone know about it. You are truly an inspiration to us all.

inb4 we start passive-aggressively insult each other in the third person.

So my opinion is only valid if I am for or against said issue? If only I would have known sooner that perspective isn't welcome in this discussion.

Dude, welcome to the internet; no one cares about indifferent perspectives to issues, it's not what forums are for.
And the only reason I commented to you was because you, sadly, were the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[JSRT]

I want an intelligent plot. A woman dressing like that to protect herself from danger isn't all that intelligent. It makes the plot stupid. I don't like stupid plots.

Maybe you shouldn't look for that kind of thing in a retro styled 2D beat em up. A genre that historically has been fairly light on plot. Also maybe you should not expect realism in the fantasy genre. I don't think i have ever seen a fully armored sorceress/ magic user in any game/movie comic ever. Guess you don't need to worry about armore when you are using magic, just a thought.

 

[Sepko]

You must've missed that bit where I asked, and I shall quotebox this:

The Knossos fertility goddess has nice, perky breasts that aren't infringements on my personal space, she's also holding snakes, why can't The Sorceress have been holding snakes? It makes about just as much sense as Triple-inflated water balloons.

And the Artemis statue has a million breasts, why doesn't The Sorceress have that instead? It'd certainly give us a better idea that Kamitani is taking the piss.

"Look at how tenderly she's holding the skul--"
*gigglesnort* okay okay okay, seriously? She's not giving two shits about that skeleton, she's too busy positioning herself so that she can lean back on her cane with her massive arse for counterbalance, while looking at the camera to make sure you're looking at her right. Very motherly.

Yes even that last part is a counterargument because I'm remarking on what's actually happening in that picture.

1. Why the fuck would a necromancer use snakes .
2. WHY WOULD YOU WANT THAT ?
3. And this is the part you completely disregarded everything.

1. For rituals apparently
http://www.thehowlingvoid.com/owod-v20-necromancy.html ctrl+f for "snakes"
Hey, makes just as much sense as giant breasts representing fertility prowess of the undead or whatever.

2. Who wouldn't want that? It'd be freakin' hilarious.

3. By disregard you mean "correctly describe what she's actually doing in that picture"?

 

[BernardoOne]

Alright, so, the reason she has mammary-atrocities is because "the functional purpose of breasts...is to provide milk for their offspring"
So firstly that's the creepiest thing I've ever read in the context of a character who raises dead things from the grave. What, her giant mammary-flotillas are representative of the high expertise of her bone-raising abilities? (I just realised I made a pun)

"Kamitani uses this motif for his characters who give life to the dead"
Yup, that's totally the main and only reason he's doing that.

"Kamitani is taking the traditional 'Fertility Goddess' motif of breasts, and applying it to necromancy. That is really cool"
No, it really isn't, it's freakin' creepy. You should never have a human symbol of sex/fertility/life-giving, crank it up to 11, and then add dead things to it.

The Knossos fertility goddess has nice, perky breasts that aren't infringements on my personal space, she's also holding snakes, why can't The Sorceress have been holding snakes? It makes about just as much sense as Triple-inflated water balloons.

And the Artemis statue has a million breasts, why doesn't The Sorceress have that instead? It'd certainly give us a better idea that Kamitani is taking the piss.

"Look at how tenderly she's holding the skul--"
*gigglesnort* okay okay okay, seriously? She's not giving two shits about that skeleton, she's too busy positioning herself so that she can lean back on her cane with her massive arse for counterbalance, while looking at the camera to make sure you're looking at her right. Very motherly.

Of course the Sorceress is designed to be sexy as well, but that isn't a bad thing. Sexuality is something naturally occurring in our everyday life and it is impossible to ignore; it should come as no surprise that it's represented in art. I don't think her connections to fertility need to made any more explicit either. If someone was able to create the argument in the image I showed you, then that alone proves that there is enough context clues for someone to reach that interpretation.

There's sexy, and then there's needless epic boob proportions. And don't tell me there are context clues to her character warranting them, because no one is going to link giant tits to motherly love for the undead because of fertility godesses without looking like they were reaching really far to justify giant tits. And reach they will.
You gonna comment on anything else I wrote, or are we sticking to the "interpretation" argument?

I love how you ignore that everything in the game is EXXAGERATED, ITS A F$%&&% ARTSTYLE. I dont see you complaining about the huge bulky dwarf, for some reason.