Gaming, Media, Boobies and Poorly Thought-Out Responses: Oh My!

[The Inquisitive Mug]

Let's not sit around and pretend looks mean absolutely nothing. They change how we react to people and our judgement of them without ever talking to them once.

As for the perception in games, this is a known issue. Note to developers though, you dress your female cast like strippers and have them act like strippers, I'ma care about them as much as I do real strippers. Hint: That's not at all. You want me to take a female character seriously, they need to be dressed and act like a person.

I think the problem is too much emphasis on the looks rather than people pretending that it means nothing.

Declaring sexism and throwing insult at the sight of a character with big boobs showing cleavage is hardly reasonable.

See, I can agree with both of you (and to be honest, this is some of the only level-headedness I've seen thus far). This is a multifaceted issue, but it seems to keep getting boiled down to two sides: "This image is childish, sexist, and harmful!" or "There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this image!" I can totally agree that the design choice doesn't inherently contain any kind of significance to her character or the plot of the game (that we know of), while also saying being an extremely large breasted woman with clothing that would only adequately cover a Hobbit does not preclude her from potentially having a personality. I can say that I am not interested in a character whose only redeeming trait is her massive chesticles, while also saying that such a thing is not harmful. I can also say "Without a doubt, having a character who looks like this would not make anyone but the most uptight, insecure, and frankly SEXIST of female game developers reconsider getting into the industry. So what if this is a mostly male-centric industry? How is that every going to change if you are willing to give up on your passion every time someone draws a fucking cartoon?" and still think that this sorcerer looks silly as shit.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

This is really starting to hurt the industry in a whole in my opinion. We aren't seeing as many foreign games getting localized, and some that do have been censored for having content that is "too explicit" for America. As a video game enthusiast, I really feel like I'm being left behind for living in country that can't take a bit of shock in their media.

None of this is new in the gaming industry, despite the hyperbole here. If anything, it's probably gotten better (in terms of better for risque content), despite all the cries of "slippery slope!" and such.

Honestly, I don't know how old you are, but I remember censorship from the frickin eighties. It hasn't changed or gotten worse.

It doesn't matter if it's new, it's still happening and it's still bad. There are games getting censored during localization or not getting localized at all due to this negative air surrounding sexual content in video games. Meanwhile, I can go purchase an uncensored BluRay of Strike Withces or even watch it on Netflix. Why can't I get uncensored video games too?

I don't think that anyone's saying ( or at least most people aren't) that it should be censored. It's a criticism of the character design on the basis that it's designed like to look like softcore porn. That's a kind of design that will really only appeal to a single demographic, and hell, it won't even appeal to the whole demographic. If I want to see a woman grinding her ass on a staff (Which I typically don't) I'll watch porn. I don't think it has any place in a game intended for an audience consisting of multiple genders and sexualities. Designs like these really give off the impression that the game is only intended for straight men, and it is not even close to being alone in that regard.

I love how you ignore that everything in the game is EXXAGERATED, ITS A F$%&&% ARTSTYLE. I dont see you complaining about the huge bulky dwarf, for some reason.

Hi. Person here complaining about the exaggerated art style. I think basically everyone except for the archer and the mage look absolutely ridiculous. And even those two designs I am not particularly fond of.

The sorceress however is ridiculous in an entirely different regard. Actually, it's not even the design that bothers me the most about her, it's the fact that every aspect of the way she's positioned is completely and utterly intended to pander to the sexual fantasies of men playing the game. And lord knows, who but men play video games? Let's look at this picture:

Staff slid between ass cheeks - I would absolutely love for someone to give me a reason for this decision besides sexualization. Did the fertility goddess of yore do this as well?

Massive breasts almost slipping out of her shirt - Okay, so let's say I give you exaggeration. And I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with a character having large breasts, real women in the world have large breasts. But on the verge of slipping out of her shirt? I can't think of any practical reason for this or anything on the basis of exaggeration. It just plainly comes across as them wanting to try and tease as much of her exaggerated breasts as possible

Skull shoved between her breasts - Uh huh... I've seen the being nurturing to the dead argument in this thread, but really? Being sexual was a byproduct of a nurturing appearance and not the other way around? I'm also confused with how the best way to convey a nurturing appearance is through sexualizing them as much as possible. Not to mention there's countless other ways of representing nurturing without shoving a face inside your chest. Frankly I'm surprised that the artist didn't have her breastfeeding the skeleton. And now I'm left wondering if it would be just as defended if that were the case.

I may have been a bit long winded with that, but I'm pretty sure that she isn't comparable as just using exaggeration like the rest of the characters. Plus I think I kind of reiterated what Sepko was trying to say about exactly why her breasts are so massive

 

[the December King]

... man, I sympathize with the artist. If I worked so long and so hard on something I thought was cool and believed in, only to have someone with a sizeable media following or means of mass-communication glance at some of the concept art and bark out a snarky remark, I too might overreact. Play the damn game before pontificating - we unwashed masses can mindlessly pre-judge all we like, but a reviewer/professional critic should conduct themselves better.

Having said that, I do feel the artist's response was an overreaction. But he apologised.

Oops! That rant just slipped out, sorry. I think it's because I like the art.

...

More on topic,

Both sexes have their peacocks. Preen!

 

[Moderated]

This is what you are doing with your penny arcade link:
Hey guys, I found this article on google news: news.google.com
Link to the comic itself, not the homepage.
EDIT: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/04/24

 

[The Inquisitive Mug]

I just want to touch on a few points of your post, because I agree with you in that trying to write off her obvious sexualization as nurturing is disguising this issue. I don't feel that her sexualization needs to be justified by "nurturing" or anything else. I feel it stands on it own merits.

It's a criticism of the character design on the basis that it's designed like to look like softcore porn. That's a kind of design that will really only appeal to a single demographic, and hell, it won't even appeal to the whole demographic. If I want to see a woman grinding her ass on a staff (Which I typically don't) I'll watch porn. I don't think it has any place in a game intended for an audience consisting of multiple genders and sexualities. Designs like these really give off the impression that the game is only intended for straight men, and it is not even close to being alone in that regard.

I hope this doesn't seem like nitpicking, but this is nowhere near soft-core porn. I work offshore, which means every night about 11 or 12 the television will switch over to Skinamax (or Skin-To-The-MAX, as they've taken to calling it). This is TAME by comparison.

Secondly, this character does not equal the game. And if people take an issue with this character, what's to stop them from picking any other character in the game? This is no more a game intended solely for straight males (or lesbians, which I'm curious why you left out) anymore than Soul Calibur is a game intended solely for people who love samurai, or Mortal Kombat is game intended solely for people who love ninjas OR people with big tits. People of multiple genders and sexualities need calenders. Does this mean calenders featuring women with big breasts give the calender industry a bad name? Does it imply that knowing days of the week is still an activity exclusive to straight men? What about Hooters? Does a restaurant that predicates it's existence on large breasted waitresses give off the impression that restaurants are only intended for the patronage of straight men?

And let's assume for a moment that his game was, INTENTIONALLY, made solely to market toward straight men. Is that such a bad thing? Straight men need love too. If you don't like the game, that's perfectly fine. But to call this sexist is way off base. If anything, decrying a game hypothetically made to appeal to straight men solely because you find the appearance of the sorcerer offense is a mild form of sexism. This would imply that something is wrong with being a large breasted slutty dresser.

EDIT: Not trying to say that you're calling this game sexist. Just touching upon the larger point as found in this thread.

 

[Erttheking]

STOP! Ok, just stop! We are accomplishing absolutely nothing here! Are we are doing is shouting and throwing snide and rude remarks at everyone! We are not learning, we are not growing, we're just giving the mods exercise. Just, freaking STOP!

 

[AndyNPC]

I don't think that anyone's saying ( or at least most people aren't) that it should be censored. It's a criticism of the character design on the basis that it's designed like to look like softcore porn. That's a kind of design that will really only appeal to a single demographic, and hell, it won't even appeal to the whole demographic. If I want to see a woman grinding her ass on a staff (Which I typically don't) I'll watch porn. I don't think it has any place in a game intended for an audience consisting of multiple genders and sexualities. Designs like these really give off the impression that the game is only intended for straight men, and it is not even close to being alone in that regard.

You make it sound like the Sorceress is doing strip-teases to attack her enemies. Just watch any gameplay trailer and you can see that her appearances in-game are far less provocative than anything you've described. There's far more action going on around her to focus on, and you won't be seeing any Bayonetta style dances coming from her. To say that her inclusion is anti-women is just ridiculous; I'm not buying the game to look at her breasts, and I seriously doubt any woman who was considering buying Dragon's Crown is going to cancel her order just to avoid looking at them.

 

[The Inquisitive Mug]

STOP! Ok, just stop! We are accomplishing absolutely nothing here! Are we are doing is shouting and throwing snide and rude remarks at everyone! We are not learning, we are not growing, we're just giving the mods exercise. Just, freaking STOP!

...

...I'm learning...

 

[Erttheking]

STOP! Ok, just stop! We are accomplishing absolutely nothing here! Are we are doing is shouting and throwing snide and rude remarks at everyone! We are not learning, we are not growing, we're just giving the mods exercise. Just, freaking STOP!

...

...I'm learning...

No offense, but I think that most of the people here are just shouting, fuming, and half are just jumping on one person for making a less than pleasant comment about the artwork, even though I see far worse comments in here directed at people working in the industry every day, for some reason this one is catching flak. Why? No idea.

 

[The Inquisitive Mug]

STOP! Ok, just stop! We are accomplishing absolutely nothing here! Are we are doing is shouting and throwing snide and rude remarks at everyone! We are not learning, we are not growing, we're just giving the mods exercise. Just, freaking STOP!

...

...I'm learning...

No offense, but I think that most of the people here are just shouting stewing, and half are just jumping on one person for making a less than pleasant comment about the artwork, even though I see far worse comments in here directed at people working in the industry every day, for some reason this one is catching flak. Why? No idea.

No offense taken. Honestly, I agree with you, and it's a problem I see on this forum as whole. It doesn't matter what thread you go into, any debate or discussion eventually turns savage. It's as though no one is capable of disagreeing and moving on, only arguing until they "win." If I had a nickel for every response I've seen start out as polite discourse, and end with "obviously you need to work on your critical thinking skills" or "obviously you didn't even READ these sources," I could buy... something. It's really- Ahh! PISSING CONTEST! THAT'S WHAT IT'S CALLED! People treat every debate like pissing contest.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I just want to touch on a few points of your post, because I agree with you in that trying to write off her obvious sexualization as nurturing is disguising this issue. I don't feel that her sexualization needs to be justified by "nurturing" or anything else. I feel it stands on it own merits.

It's a criticism of the character design on the basis that it's designed like to look like softcore porn. That's a kind of design that will really only appeal to a single demographic, and hell, it won't even appeal to the whole demographic. If I want to see a woman grinding her ass on a staff (Which I typically don't) I'll watch porn. I don't think it has any place in a game intended for an audience consisting of multiple genders and sexualities. Designs like these really give off the impression that the game is only intended for straight men, and it is not even close to being alone in that regard.

I hope this doesn't seem like nitpicking, but this is nowhere near soft-core porn. I work offshore, which means every night about 11 or 12 the television will switch over to Skinamax (or Skin-To-The-MAX, as they've taken to calling it). This is TAME by comparison.

Secondly, this character does not equal the game. And if people take an issue with this character, what's to stop them from picking any other character in the game? This is no more a game intended solely for straight males (or lesbians, which I'm curious why you left out) anymore than Soul Calibur is a game intended solely for people who love samurai, or Mortal Kombat is game intended solely for people who love ninjas OR people with big tits. People of multiple genders and sexualities need calenders. Does this mean calenders featuring women with big breasts give the calender industry a bad name? Does it imply that knowing days of the week is still an activity exclusive to straight men? What about Hooters? Does a restaurant that predicates it's existence on large breasted waitresses give off the impression that restaurants are only intended for the patronage of straight men?

And let's assume for a moment that his game was, INTENTIONALLY, made solely to market toward straight men. Is that such a bad thing? Straight men need love too. If you don't like the game, that's perfectly fine. But to call this sexist is way off base. If anything, decrying a game hypothetically made to appeal to straight men solely because you find the appearance of the sorcerer offense is a mild form of sexism. This would imply that something is wrong with being a large breasted slutty dresser.

EDIT: Not trying to say that you're calling this game sexist. Just touching upon the larger point as found in this thread.

Actually it was somewhat intentional not including lesbians. The reason being that straight men and gay women are not attracted to the same qualities in women. A character designed to appeal sexually to straight men and lesbians will likely be different. For instance there's a far larger portion of women attracted to butch women than men.

For the calender analogy there's one big important difference, besides the pictures they all are fundamentally the same. If you want the full calender experience but don't want to have to cringe at the gratuitous naked photos you can very easily reach over to the next calender stand and pick up one without them. Actually, the fact that these games have far more appeal to them than just titillation is what makes all the difference between them and porn. Despite liking other aspects of the game, an entire gender who plays it has to deal with aspects of the game that are altered for the sake of providing fan service for straight guys.

This isn't by any stretch the worst thing in the world, but imagine if in about half the games you played (I think that's a fairly reasonable estimate) anywhere between a couple and a considerable portion of the male characters had the camera zoom in on their ass in cutscenes, put themselves in sensual positions and had kinky costumes accentuating bulges in their pants. It wouldn't be the end of the world, and I could still enjoy some of the games, but I'm sure I'd be thinking "Do they need to KEEP shoving this in my face? Can't they just focus on letting me enjoy the game?"

They can choose a different character, but I think that it's kind of silly to give people reasons not to play a character based on their sexual orientation.

On the flip side, straight women also need love. What makes this come across as sexist isn't the appearance of this single character, but the lack of any sort of balance. How many games have you seen that give even close to this level of pandering to straight women? I actually cannot think of any. Straight men are already getting plenty of love, do they need all of it?

 

[The Inquisitive Mug]

EDIT: Changed up the last two paragraphs a bit. If you've already read it, I ask you read the last bit again, as I feel I've misrepresented myself. Also, fixed that nightmare of a quotation maze.

Actually it was somewhat intentional not including lesbians. The reason being that straight men and gay women are not attracted to the same qualities in women. A character designed to appeal sexually to straight men and lesbians will likely be different. For instance there's a far larger portion of women attracted to butch women than men.

For the calender analogy there's one big important difference, besides the pictures they all are fundamentally the same. If you want the full calender experience but don't want to have to cringe at the gratuitous naked photos you can very easily reach over to the next calender stand and pick up one without them. Actually, the fact that these games have far more appeal to them than just titillation is what makes all the difference between them and porn. Despite liking other aspects of the game, an entire gender who plays it has to deal with aspects of the game that are altered for the sake of providing fan service for straight guys.

This isn't by any stretch the worst thing in the world, but imagine if in about half the games you played (I think that's a fairly reasonable estimate) anywhere between a couple and a considerable portion of the male characters had the camera zoom in on their ass in cutscenes, put themselves in sensual positions and had kinky costumes accentuating bulges in their pants. It wouldn't be the end of the world, and I could still enjoy some of the games, but I'm sure I'd be thinking "Do they need to KEEP shoving this in my face? Can't they just focus on letting me enjoy the game?"

They can choose a different character, but I think that it's kind of silly to give people reasons not to play a character based on their sexual orientation.

On the flip side, straight women also need love. What makes this come across as sexist isn't the appearance of this single character, but the lack of any sort of balance. How many games have you seen that give even close to this level of pandering to straight women? I actually cannot think of any. Straight men are already getting plenty of love, do they need all of it?

I suspected as much about the omission of lesbians, and I suppose you're right.

To be fair, you were the one who drew the comparison to soft core pornography. But is it really considered fan service? I don't see anything wrong with having an overly sexualized character, and I don't believe you do either. Rather, it seems you take issue with the disproportionate amount of "fanservice" paid toward straight men. I guess it's all personal preference, but this ties more into your last paragraph, so I'd like to stop for now and pick this topic up again down there.

I don't think that people are being given reasons to not play; people choose their own reasons. Everyone's different. I, for example, would have no problem with your cinematic dude-ass montage (I'm a heterosexual male). Voldo in Soul Calibur II had a costume with the top hemisphere of his ashy grey ass exposed, and a significant bulge if memory served, and I played as him almost exclusively. But of course, this is a matter of opinion, and I could certainly relate to someone being uncomfortable seeing such a thing. I'll agree to disagree.

About there not being enough sex appeal in games directed toward women, or gay men and women, to create a balance: I'm not qualified to refute that. I have no idea what straight women or gay men would find attractive in other men, which means I also can't concretely say that the sexual pandering is or isn't disproportionate. To me, this is what would separate fanservice from just plain sexy-ness. But without games TO balance the scales, games that pander sexually to the opposite sex, what harm does the Sorcerer cause? If she weren't in the game, it would balance things, sure, but you'd still be left with a game devoid of sexuality on the other end. Really, it seems to me like developers who don't pander to women in the same way are to blame. I'm for giving both sides a big ol' makeover. Let's get moist up in here. But does that mean that I can't have my Sorcerer until women have their sexy-dude-something-or-other?

Still, I can understand where you're coming from as far as being uncomfortable with the Sorcerer's design. Do I agree? No, but hey, opinions. Do I think the Sorcerer is Sexist? Absolutely not. I really believe this whole thing has been blown out of proportion. People (not you) seem to be taking out their aggression about gender politics within the games industry on this one, harmless Sorcerer. She's been made into the symbol of everything they hate, even though she's really just a cartoon with big ol' titties. But again, as far as the Sorcerer representing a disproportionate level of sexual pandering toward one gender or sexual orientation in favor of another? I'm not the guy to ask. My gut tells me you have a point, but I don't think the Sorcerer is the problem or the solution.

 

[Abriael]

Figured I'd share my own response to this whole debacle.
http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/04/29/the-art-of-dragons-crown-is-perfectly-fine-please-stop-being-paranoid/

Mind you, it isn't a debacle for the developer. It's a debacle for the press.

Hmmm, this is very well put together.

I have always thought that the issue is blown out of proportion but the angle about it threatening to become an act of hypocrisy by the games press never occurred to me and it is quite disturbing.

Isn't it? We're simply turning into what we fought for years, because it gets more clicks.

It's sad, very sad.

I'm offshore at the moment, and this stupid damned internet filter won't let me visit any websites that are even remotely about games. However, I'd really like to read your response. Is it hosted anywhere else?

Unfortunately no, it's a rather big-ass article, or I'd just post it here lol.

 

[ScumdogSoldier]

You know what? I'm not even gonna try and pretend like the Sorceress isn't designed with sex appeal in mind.

I don't understand why that's a problem. Frankly, unless you're insecure about your body, or sexuality in general, I don't see why the sorceress would make anyone uncomfortable. Am I supposed to be offended when I see a sexual depiction of another man? I walk past Harlequin Blaze novels all the time at bookstores, and when I went to Las Vegas last summer, there were a bunch of pretty prominent ads for a prominent male stripper performance, didn't bother me a hang.

I just want to touch on a few points of your post, because I agree with you in that trying to write off her obvious sexualization as nurturing is disguising this issue. I don't feel that her sexualization needs to be justified by "nurturing" or anything else. I feel it stands on it own merits.

It's a criticism of the character design on the basis that it's designed like to look like softcore porn. That's a kind of design that will really only appeal to a single demographic, and hell, it won't even appeal to the whole demographic. If I want to see a woman grinding her ass on a staff (Which I typically don't) I'll watch porn. I don't think it has any place in a game intended for an audience consisting of multiple genders and sexualities. Designs like these really give off the impression that the game is only intended for straight men, and it is not even close to being alone in that regard.

Actually it was somewhat intentional not including lesbians. The reason being that straight men and gay women are not attracted to the same qualities in women. A character designed to appeal sexually to straight men and lesbians will likely be different. For instance there's a far larger portion of women attracted to butch women than men.

For the calender analogy there's one big important difference, besides the pictures they all are fundamentally the same. If you want the full calender experience but don't want to have to cringe at the gratuitous naked photos you can very easily reach over to the next calender stand and pick up one without them. Actually, the fact that these games have far more appeal to them than just titillation is what makes all the difference between them and porn. Despite liking other aspects of the game, an entire gender who plays it has to deal with aspects of the game that are altered for the sake of providing fan service for straight guys.

This isn't by any stretch the worst thing in the world, but imagine if in about half the games you played (I think that's a fairly reasonable estimate) anywhere between a couple and a considerable portion of the male characters had the camera zoom in on their ass in cutscenes, put themselves in sensual positions and had kinky costumes accentuating bulges in their pants. It wouldn't be the end of the world, and I could still enjoy some of the games, but I'm sure I'd be thinking "Do they need to KEEP shoving this in my face? Can't they just focus on letting me enjoy the game?"

1. Even if it is targeted at the one demographic, why does that matter?

2.You mean like in MGS4? I got along alright.

 

[Andy Shandy]

Well jesus, this thread [http://www.destructoid.com/gearbox-artist-slams-dragon-s-crown-character-design-252826.phtml] blew up a bit [http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=551796], didn't it?

You work at Gear Box, you forfeit your right to have an opinion in the industry. You will not be looked at with any creditably, nor will anyone else her really, Im sure. Your comments will only pollute this discussion.

I would just love to know how the fact that she works at Gearbox means anything in this discussion. It's her personal opinion on the whole thing, not a Gearbox-wide viewpoint on the whole thing. Please do tell.

 

[Erttheking]

You work at Gear Box, you forfeit your right to have an opinion in the industry. You will not be looked at with any creditably, nor will anyone else her really, Im sure. Your comments will only pollute this discussion.

That doesn't make any sense, and really that's just a needlessly cruel remark.

 

[The Inquisitive Mug]

Now that I think about it, what about an alternate costume? Couldn't they just make a costume for the Sorcerer that's less revealing? No one would have to abstain from playing with her because of her current appearance, and anyone who enjoys watching her pups flop around could still choose the play with her original design.

 

[ScumdogSoldier]

Now that I think about it, what about an alternate costume? Couldn't they just make a costume for the Sorcerer that's less revealing? No one would have to abstain from playing with her because of her current appearance, and anyone who enjoys watching her pups flop around could still choose the play with her original design.

While alt costumes in general would be cool, the nature of 2D sprites makes this much more difficult than in games with 3D models.

 

[Abriael]

Now that I think about it, what about an alternate costume?

What about allowing an artist some artistic freedom instead of asking him to cave to other people's taste?

Couldn't they just make a costume for the Sorcerer that's less revealing? No one would have to abstain from playing with her because of her current appearance, and anyone who enjoys watching her pups flop around could still choose the play with her original design.

If one abstains from playing a game just for some revealed skin and satirical proportions, he or she has all my sympathy and pity.

 

[Fappy]

Now that I think about it, what about an alternate costume? Couldn't they just make a costume for the Sorcerer that's less revealing? No one would have to abstain from playing with her because of her current appearance, and anyone who enjoys watching her pups flop around could still choose the play with her original design.

While alt costumes in general would be cool, the nature of 2D sprites makes this much more difficult than in games with 3D models.

You're right, but there do exists some technologies to assist in this. Honestly, I wouldn't mind them adding this, but I don't feel like they should really have to. Yeah, it's a pretty juvenile aesthetic, but if the man's willing to stand up and defend his art (even if he's a child about it) I can't really knock him for it.