Gender Equality and Dating

[Clockwork-Fox]

Honestly it more has to do with the person. Some girls want to be asked out and taken care of like a spoiled princess. And then there are girls who would rather do the chasing and don't want any extra attention for basically just having boobs. As far as the asking out business, it depends on the other person's knowledge of said feelings. You can't always expect the other person to know you have feelings for them. If that's the case, you'll probably have to ask. But if there seems to be mutual attraction, then it could go either way.

As far as payment goes, well I guess it depends. If I want to go to say, a really nice restaurant of my specific choosing, I'd plan on paying for the entire thing since it could be out of my date's price range. If its just a casual thing, then offer to pay, but don't insist. Some girls get mad if you insist on paying, but then at least you can't get in trouble for not offering to be a gentleman.

Like the story in The Canterbury Tales, women just want power over their own lives. Even if a guy acts in an old fashioned, chivalrous style, girls want to choose if they are treated like a princess. Treat a lady with respect and things like splitting a tab will be super simple.

 

[KalosCast]

Sure are a lot of bitter Forever Alones in this thread.

It's just old tradition. It dates back to a time where women generally didn't even have a means of making their own income (or even leave the house very often), so they couldn't even be reasonably expected to pay for dinner and pick up dudes.

 

[Paksenarrion]

Have more rap songs about how women be rollin' in men and dough.

Profit.

The notion that we should accept social change from RAP is...

It makes me nauseous.

It's either that, or turn off the TV and teach children to strive for a social utopia. But that would require effort and commitment from parents.

If we let television raise our children...

 

[Shuswah_Noir]

I think it depends on the person... I chased the last guy I dated.. And before that it was usually 50/50..

 

[DefunctTheory]

Have more rap songs about how women be rollin' in men and dough.

Profit.

The notion that we should accept social change from RAP is...

It makes me nauseous.

It's either that, or turn off the TV and teach children to strive for a social utopia. But that would require effort and commitment from parents.

If we let television raise our children...

Social utopia is impossible and will only result in catastrophe. Better to manage mankind's flaws as they come then to wander to damnation.

As for teaching kids... well, yah.

Thank god I'll never have to worry about that though.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I had a discussion with a few friends of mine about how, although gender equality has been virtually stabilised in the workplace and the western world (with one or two mishaps here and there, i.e. sports) how come then has it not trickled into the dating scene?

Well, mostly because the job situation screws us over, whereas the dating situation screws you (guys) over. ^^

Honestly, I have no problem asking men (or other women) out. I'm a forward, mouthy little slut.

As far as paying for dates, I wouldn't MIND paying... but... you know, free stuff is nice. And some guys get bitchy if you try to pay - they think it means they aren't getting laid (and since I put out on the first date, they're generally wrong about that). So it's easier to just let it ride, let the guy pay, and make him think he's tricked me into having sex with him. **shrug**

When dating girls, of course, it varies. I've spit bills, paid for both of us once and let her pay for the next one, or other variations. Some girls I've been with liked to pay (sort of taking the dominant role), and again, I wasn't about to argue with free stuff.

So basically, women (or me anyway) want to be hired as often, paid as much as, and promoted as often as men. In return, I (and other women I know) are willing to go dutch on dates. However, if you offer to pay, prepare to be screwed by the while "free stuff is nice" instinct.

 

[Riku'sTwilight]

Regarding the girl: go for it, be yourself, try a little creativity but not too much, and ignore all other advice regardless of the source. Who cares if that's the only place you see her? If you can get her laughing or flirting or even talking then your foot's in the door. At the very least it's step 1 toward getting over it, not to mention practice. At best you'll get a first date!

Thanks for the advice, I've got her laughing and smiling while she's been at work, I've always tried to keep it brief, so not to seem weird or wanting I just needed that little extra push in order to go for it. One problem I face is that because it is a small store I have to do it when a) she's there (she's not always there) and b) when it's not busy as I obviously don't want to embarass her, or myself too much if she does reject me. But I think the next time I do see her in the shop and it's quietish I'll have to see how it goes.

Oh dear that Gamestation add was right

Sorry.
This bothers me too, women are quick to complain about any form of sexism against them but as soon as I ask my girlfriend if she could at least cover what she ordered, or buy her own damn $8 popcorn she makes me out to be the bad guy. (I mean ex-girlfriend)

Haha I saw that advert too, it made me laugh when I saw it. I agree with you whole-heartedly; most women do complain about injustice but aren't too quick to go ahead and do anything about it. I had a friend who got quite involved with a girl and he paid for everything of hers, meals, haircuts, drinks you name it, he bought it for her. It's fair to say he quickly became broke and she dumped him.

I'm gay, and gender-role inequality even extends to me. Just because I'm pretty tomboyish, I've been expected to play the typical "guy" role with the girls that I've dated, who have always been more stereotypically girly. Problem is, I hate/fear initiating things, and pretty much suck at it. I hate being the leader with things/people. It's frustrating.

I have to be the one to ask a girl out, I have to plan dates, etc. Do not want.

So, basically, gender roles suck, and no one gets to escape it.

Hey nice to hear from a lesbian. I know quite a few gay girls and they have your exact same problem, the slightly boyish ones have to lead.
One of my best gay-girl friends (who is very much femme) likes to date femme girls and she put it as "sometimes it can't just be down to who's in charge or who's submissive in these things, sometimes it's just mutual" - she was talking about making the first kiss but I like to think it can apply to more than just that.

 

[Riku'sTwilight]

I had a discussion with a few friends of mine about how, although gender equality has been virtually stabilised in the workplace and the western world (with one or two mishaps here and there, i.e. sports) how come then has it not trickled into the dating scene?

Well, mostly because the job situation screws us over, whereas the dating situation screws you (guys) over. ^^

Honestly, I have no problem asking men (or other women) out. I'm a forward, mouthy little slut.

As far as paying for dates, I wouldn't MIND paying... but... you know, free stuff is nice. And some guys get bitchy if you try to pay - they think it means they aren't getting laid (and since I put out on the first date, they're generally wrong about that). So it's easier to just let it ride, let the guy pay, and make him think he's tricked me into having sex with him. **shrug**

When dating girls, of course, it varies. I've spit bills, paid for both of us once and let her pay for the next one, or other variations. Some girls I've been with liked to pay (sort of taking the dominant role), and again, I wasn't about to argue with free stuff.

So basically, women (or me anyway) want to be hired as often, paid as much as, and promoted as often as men. In return, I (and other women I know) are willing to go dutch on dates. However, if you offer to pay, prepare to be screwed by the while "free stuff is nice" instinct.

Could you errm come and date me please? Damn I love a

"forward, mouthy little slut."

The world needs more girls like you fair woman!

 

[UbarElite]

It seems some other posts would agree with this, but the thought that women never make moves or initiate romance or dates is not necessarily true. However, I am willing to bet that the main reason for the man-courts-woman-and-pays-for-everything scenario is perpetrated simply because such a stereotype is prevalent in western culture.

It's the concept of the "looking glass self," which essentially means that a person's self image is often shaped by how others see them. In other words, the stereotype sort of perpetuates itself. However, social thinking is changing, and I'm sure this change isn't too far behind.

 

[Twilight_guy]

... although gender equality has been virtually stabilised in the workplace and the western world...

Yeahhhhhh, that's so utterly not true. But to answer your actual question, boys are still being raised to be chivalrous towards girls, and girls are still being raised that men should take the lead. These are both holdover behaviors from times when females weren't expected to be anything more than wives and mothers. There are far too many women who expect a man to pay their bills, because they view themselves as a prize to be won. Similarly, many men feel emasculated by a woman trying to take an equal role in the relationship - I know few men who would be comfortable with their wife or girlfriend earning more than them, for example.

It will take a very, very long time for these traditions to work their way out of our culture, because people would have to want them out of our culture first. And many simply don't. Many people, both male and female, view the traditional gender roles as the "correct" way a relationship should be. (That is, the man is the provider, the woman is the nurturer.)

Extending your argument a bit, unless people actively choose to deviate from social norms, the social norms get reproduced. By having no opinion or choosing not to do something different, a person conforms to the "norms" which reproduces them again. Unless people actively say "No, no more sexism" and fight it then they will reproduce the old culture, the unequal culture. I think many people don't realize that a choice not to support a change in a culture is actually not a neutral choice but a de facto choice to extend the old culture and thus reproduce it. I sure more then a few people don't see a problem and thus don't contribute to a change but I'm sure there are others who try and be "neutral" and fail due to a sort of lack of neutral ground to stand on.

 

[moosek]

I fucking dare any other guys out their to treat women with "equality" on the first date. I use quote marks because for 1) I don't know how to italicize, and 2) because I believe equality in peer-to-peer relations is impossible. That's like saying there's neutrality among individuals, it's doesn't sound right to me.

The concept of equality is something that is implicated by the law. All people should be treated equally by institutions. I'm not saying this is always the case, but governments, employers, and service providers ideally should treat all peoples the same.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Could you errm come and date me please? Damn I love a

"forward, mouthy little slut."

The world needs more girls like you fair woman!

^^;; Sorry. I'm kinda married.

Also I have a rule about not having sex with people I meet on the internet. Never again.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I fucking dare any other guys out their to treat women with "equality" on the first date. I use quote marks because for 1) I don't know how to italicize, and 2) because I believe equality in peer-to-peer relations is impossible. That's like saying there's neutrality among individuals, it's doesn't sound right to me.

Um... on my first date with my spouse, I paid for dinner. We had sex later that evening too. And, just in case you don't feel like checking my profile or reading my previous posts, yes, I am female.

So guys, going dutch can actually get you laid. Repeatedly in some cases. It won't work with everyone (some women still prefer the classic courtships) but in some.

 

[MasterOfWorlds]

I remember having an "Open mouth, insert foot." moment when talking about this in my personality psych class a few terms ago.

I suppose that I've had somewhat odd experiences when it comes to women. My first gf asked me out, and another girl I had a few dates with insisted on paying for at least her part of the meal, if not the entire meal. Hell, even one girl in one of my classes gave me some cash just because I was nice and gave her a lift to her place. I told her that she didn't have to give me money, but she tossed it in the passenger side floor and invited me in. It was odd. XD

I think that it's not completely equal, but it's slowly getting better. Although I hate it when I hold a door for a woman and I get a dirty look. Ladies, I'm just trying to be polite, it has nothing to do with your gender, lay off me.

As for the girl, ask her out. If you're too shy to actually ask her out on a date, just ask if she wants to meet for a movie or something, don't walk up and stumble over yourself, get to know her a bit first, then after a few outings, ask her on an actual date.

 

[Riku'sTwilight]

Could you errm come and date me please? Damn I love a

"forward, mouthy little slut."

The world needs more girls like you fair woman!

^^;; Sorry. I'm kinda married.

Also I have a rule about not having sex with people I meet on the internet. Never again.

Haha that's completely fine. Congrats on being married though
I was half-joking, the only way I'd ever consider going any further than internet is if a) you were in the same country as me and b) you were in the same county/state as me.

You're neither of those (and you're married) so yeah don't even worry about it.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Well, I got pretty lucky with my girl. Neither of us really cares about that stuff.

I was the one who asked her out, but only because she was too shy to ask me (although she did say if I hadn't asked her out by valentine's, she would have at least tried.)

Then, she was the first to try to hold hands, and she was the first to suggest an actual date (although I WAS gonna bring it up later), AND she was the first to move for a kiss. So really, she's good at making the first move once her comfort zone has been established.

As for paying, we usually both pay our own way. But sometimes I tell her it's my treat (like that first date). Honestly, gender shouldn't dictate who has to do nice things. Both parties should do nice things for the other.

 

[DreadfulSorry]

Dude, it goes both ways. I dated a guy for a while who REFUSED to allow me to pay for anything. Ever. It was one of the things that irritated me the most; sometimes the lady wants to show her dude a good time, stop hogging all the fun.
And as for the asking out thing, it's always been kind of a mutual realization for me, i.e. we get progressively closer as friends until we both just sort of admit we're into each other. Aside from the fact that none of my relationships have lasted more than a year, it seems to have worked out alright, and it feels much more equal that way.