[Gender in gaming] It's not just about women.

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Westaway

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Have you considered that maybe you weren't meant to have an "emotional connection" with these characters? Why would you even go into a game called God of War expecting to make emotional connections? It's a fucking video game. Have you considered to possibility that the characters were made as an afterthought of the gameplay, and that it wouldn't make sense for a scrawny, bespectacled, emotional man child to be the one killing hundreds of demons in Doom?

If there are power fantasies in video games- and I'm not convinced there are many, since most people don't think when they're blowing zombies away "I'M SO POWERFUL", they think "THIS GAMEPLAY IS FUN"- but if there are power fantasies, it comes from whatever character you're assuming winning. Not from the character you're assuming having big muscles.
 

Harpalyce

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Mar 1, 2012
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Don Incognito said:
T_ID said:
Harpalyce said:
Feminism seeks to forcibly impose gender roles, same as the bits of real patriarchal thinking that are still left. For example feminist mythology seeks to invent that all men enforce a 'rape culture' where they all alledgedly love sex crimes.

Feminism promotes images of dumb uncontrollable men who only think with their dick, and women as helpless incompetent victims of the evil men.
......wow.

I strongly recommend spending less time on reddit.
Wow is right. I dunno even where to begin with this. Lemme try to at least say *something*.

Maybe, you know, listen to the feminist when she tells you what feminism is (I learned it in my college course as "the radical thought that women are people"), instead of immediately jumping out to go "ding dong you are wrong"? Maybe? I dunno, I think being, you know, a feminist might give me some insight there, as opposed to the people who are avowedly enemies of the movement and therefore likely to twist words. Just a thought, T_ID.
 

Itdoesthatsometimes

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Westaway said:
Have you considered that maybe you weren't meant to have an "emotional connection" with these characters? Why would you even go into a game called God of War expecting to make emotional connections? It's a fucking video game. Have you considered to possibility that the characters were made as an afterthought of the gameplay, and that it wouldn't make sense for a scrawny, bespectacled, emotional man child to be the one killing hundreds of demons in Doom?

If there are power fantasies in video games- and I'm not convinced there are many, since most people don't think when they're blowing zombies away "I'M SO POWERFUL", they think "THIS GAMEPLAY IS FUN"- but if there are power fantasies, it comes from whatever character you're assuming winning. Not from the character you're assuming having big muscles.
I am a little confused on your use of the word scrawny, while also making the statement that muscle size does not matter also combined with the argument that it's a fucking video game.

As far as the question, yes I have considered that not all games have characters that the player is suppose to make an emotional connection with. These games have no story or if they do it is a soft story. Something passive like you are a plumber or something you have to save a princess for some reason. I played those games for years. Here is a gun go shoot a duck while this dog laughs at you. Doom as you mentioned is a good example of a soft story. Most games now have stories (weak, and bad some are but they are not in the same category as the soft story), God of War included. The purpose of the story is to have the player emotionally connect with the character.

Added Later:

I was tempted to use the example of Postal in with doom as a soft story. I decided against it, because I had to think about it over. I think it does go under as my classification of a soft story. However I think I was hesitant, because I would consider it more power fantasy than Doom. I think calling the story soft felt out of place considering the story.
 

Netrigan

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Whenever I talk about criticism sparking new ideas, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You can take someone else's idea, take out the bits you think are rubbage, keep the bits that are really cool, shove in this bit that's been floating around in your head, then figure out a way to implement it into something potentially awesome. And all because someone got you thinking about something familiar in a completely different way.

I've been batting around this blog entry about what I call The Boring White Guy, which is that drama-sucking character we find far too often at the center of a work. I was thinking about the Lawgiver on Defiance who is filling this necessary role within the narrative but someone forgot to put in any real flaws, so you get this character the story is always telling you is really edgy, but is clearly the most even-handed and almost always right character in the story. They try to create drama, but there's a going through the motions quality to it, because you know he'll come out the other side exactly the same minus some relatively minor supporting character who gets to die so he can have a brief dramatic emotional beat. And this isn't limited to a gender or race, as the same is largely true of the main character in Call The Midwife, who despite constant attempts to inject some level of soap opera into her life just remains this ever-constant, ever-boring center to an otherwise enjoyable and colorful show.

And I think the OP stumbles across why. Neither of these characters has any real emotional depth. They're just there ticking off the boxes of what they're supposed to be feeling in any given story in the most mechanical and obvious way possible.

As far as games go, something like The Last of Us is a stab in the right direction with Joel's emotional arc, but beyond the obvious, there's a lack of depth to his emotional life. He's a zombie slowly coming back to life and just about every other character in the story comes across as more interesting. Tess knows she's a shitty person and there's a sense of self-loathing about her... but in every situation she's the one with agency, while Joel is just pushed in the desired direction. Ellie is always very much of the moment and it's fun watching her reactions. The big emotional arc kind of works against Joel (I'm about a third of the way through the game) as you can make a pretty decent guess where this is headed and there hasn't been any real surprises along the way... so far.

So I'm not even sure it's about being all realistic about emotions, just letting men have them. In GTA V, Trevor ends up being the only character who truly stands out and that's because they just let him experience whatever emotion comes into his head, whether it be anger, defensiveness, or a moment of weakness. The other two guys never really vary much, just hitting their respective marks in obvious ways. Like there's this really great scene in one of the Gears of Wars games (third one, I think) where the football player experiences this one really great memory of his previous life. It's just a wonderful uplifting and tragic scene which puts all the drama of Dom searching for his wife to shame. It feels like a genuine emotion, nothing something manufactured for the plot.

Which might go a long way toward explaining why in the last decade or so, I've taken such a huge liking to female characters as they're quite frequently the only characters with any real depth in stories. Stripped of any obvious power fantasies, they're allowed to be strong, weak, vulnerable, powerful, reserved, extroverted, and so on in whatever combination makes sense at the time. They're wonderfully changeable characters just as real people are, not just a plot delivery device as far too many male characters are written.
 

Westaway

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Itdoesthatsometimes said:
The purpose of the story is to have the player emotionally connect with the character.
Absolutely false. You cannot argue this position. A story can be crafted for any reason. Not all stories are written for emotional connections. Emotional connections are some of the weakest reasons to analyze a plot. Joseph Conrad did not write Nostromo so you could emotionally connect with its titular character. Regardless, video game plots are invariably vapid, and most games would be better off without them.

People who play video games do not feel powerful because their avatar has huge muscles. They feel powerful because of the gameplay. However, it would make no sense for these characters to be scrawny, so the developers make them muscular.
 

Mezahmay

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I feel that there is already a wider pool of "viable" male character types out there even if "sarcastic edgy loner" and "brooding meat-man with dark past" are the ones that have the best marketing departments behind them. Those are fine in proper context every now and then or if characters start that way and grow along the way, but yeah some more diversity would be swell. Granted I don't play many if any AAA games these days, but the last one I played was Spec Ops: The Line. That game did a good job of developing its male characters as they wandered deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole.
runequester said:
Playing God of War is fun but Kratos is so exaggerated, it's hard to feel any kind of emotional connection whatsoever. I imagine I'm not the only one feeling that way.
That's kind of the point of Kratos. The first God of War was crafted as a Greek tragedy where the mighty is brought low by his own hubris (his bloodlust/pride) and the whim of the Gods. We're not expected to sympathize with him because he's a muscle head murder machine, we're meant to sympathize with him because Ares manipulated him into doing horrible things that he has to live with for eternity...until the other games happened. That's when Kratos was made into a high-resolution muscular angry face whose franchise survived on good will from the first game and pretty good combat.

I feel a lot of issues that you have with the current crop of male protagonists is the extent that market research is a factor and the priority story has in modern AAA game development. It's the same problem that upset the story and box art for BioShock Infinite, contributed to the poor marketing of games like Remember Me because they thought a female protagonist could not sell a game, why the vast majority of female protagonists that do get out are all less-than-half-naked men with boobs, etc. As the video game industry matures, these systemic issues will leave with the old guard so a better design philosophy can move in.

Finally, I really think this forum thread would benefit from a slight name modification. I'm thinking [Gender Roles in Gaming] or [Diversity in Gaming] would be more accurate to the discussion at hand. It would also iron out the inconsistencies presented in the last paragraph of your original post when you suggest "Diversity" exclusively applies to "women and minorities" when your topic sentence talks about gender roles and your title mentions gender. Gender identity and representation is its own issue.
 

Spearmaster

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As a man the only video game character that I can relate to, other than those that come fully from my own creation (TES, Fallout...Ect), is maybe Gordon Freeman. Silent protagonist FTW. I want to put myself in the shoes of the protagonist, I mean isn't that the whole point? I want to do the extra ordinary things in video games. I mean story and context are great but if the character is predefined it breaks immersion for me. Like watching someone else doing all these things but I get the short end of the stick and have to make it all happen and watch some lame character's dialog about it. I guess I feel that predefined characters turn the game into a DVD movie where I have to run them around doing menial tasks to unlock the next chapter in the DVD menu.

I get all my interesting characters from film and books. Games should be about pulling the player into the game world not making them watch from the outside.
 

Netrigan

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Women are an emerging market. It doesn't make sense to dedicate 50% of AAA gaming to it, but it does make sense to encourage its growth. A business would be stupid to ignore it.
 

zen5887

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Yeah I know what you mean.

It basically boils down to having a higher quality of writing in games that we desperately need.

Haaviiing saaaaid thaaaaaat

[hyperbole]

At least there is some variety in male characters, compared to female characters which rarely exist outside a handful of tropes repeated again and again and again.

[/hyperbole]
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Here's my take on this issue.

I'm a straight white male, and I don't care for the vast majority of AAA games. They're simple, repetitive, and unimaginative. I've played games for 15+ years. I've seen and done pretty much everything - usually dozens of times before. It takes something truly unique or particularly well-crafted to get my attention, and this doesn't happen more than once or twice a year. I'm part of an older, semi-jaded demographic that requires complexity and nuance from our games. We're not unlike the movie buffs who can't stomach the summer blockbusters but happily devour the more provocative indie fair.

But here's the thing: I'm not upset with AAA developers for focusing on a different demographic at my expense. I understand that they are constantly rolling the dice with hundreds of millions of dollars belonging to other people, and that it makes sense for them to repeatedly lunge for the lowest hanging fruit. This doesn't make them bad people. It doesn't make them sexist, racist, or homophobic. It makes them businessmen and women participating in and reacting to a free and (rightfully) unregulated market.

I respond by supporting those rare games that do cater to my smaller demographic. I recognize that smaller margins necessarily means lower production values, less coverage, fewer releases, and no sequels. And unlike those seeking greater diversity (which will happen over time thanks entirely to market forces and with virtually no link to the hand-wringing whingers of video game "journalists"), I will probably never see a day where my demographic grows. The "inexperienced" or "new" customers will always outnumber the old hands and command commensurate focus. Can't be helped.

I understand the desire to shine a light on the inequities. I understand that signal boosting and advocating for the change you want to see isn't immoral or even entirely ineffective. But it's definitely not very effective. The changes are underway, the market will correct, and that will be that. If you want to speed up the process, your best bet is to make a game. Failing that, buy and promote the games that interest you. But don't conflate common sense business with sexism, racism, etc., and don't try to shame or oust existing content creators just because they aren't catering to your tastes.

The universe doesn't revolve around you.
 

Itdoesthatsometimes

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Westaway said:
Absolutely false. You cannot argue this position. A story can be crafted for any reason. Not all stories are written for emotional connections. Emotional connections are some of the weakest reasons to analyze a plot. Joseph Conrad did not write Nostromo so you could emotionally connect with its titular character. Regardless, video game plots are invariably vapid, and most games would be better off without them.

People who play video games do not feel powerful because their avatar has huge muscles. They feel powerful because of the gameplay. However, it would make no sense for these characters to be scrawny, so the developers make them muscular.
I have never read that book, nor am I familiar with the game based off of it. I guess you got me there, a video game whose story had already existed had nothing to do with a player when being created. Like I said, I have not read that book, so I would only be guessing as to why it's subject matter was selected by that game developer. It is completely possible that the story was chosen for other reasons, than the characters of Nostromo were emotional connectable. Then I would classify it as a soft story. Meaning completely detachable from the actions of the player and player character.

As far as muscles go, I have not seen too many muscular women, and just leave the issue there. That issue is better left to others at this time. I have not considered power fantasy as a whole yet.

Back on topic:

As far as the male objectification article goes. I disagree that games should stop having dating sims or romantic relationships when not dome well. Certainly done well is the goal, and done poorly looks like a stain of antiquated ideas, when given the benefit of hindsight. The reason the author can point to a system like dialogue trees as a failure, is because somebody tried it out. A that system needs to be worked out to work. I think the games that this author would consider done well, will too look like a stain of antiquity it time. I am not saying this is an excuse to do a poor job.

Issues raised in the article do apply to the topic, but male objectification-and objectification are topics of there own. I would try make a more substantial post, pointing to where the article apply to the topic.

Like part one where the author addresses power fantasy to a degree, without specifically using the words. (for example)
 

keniakittykat

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Aug 9, 2012
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There already are?
I think we have pretty much have the entire scope of the male demographic down. Even if you step out of the gun-wielding musclemen, there is basically no man left out.
I, personally, can't think of a single male trait that isn't found in at least one male character.