Geohot Hypocrisy

[moretimethansense]

As has been ssaid, sony bans cheaters anyway but, I was under the impression that he'd never signed up for PSN and as such had never agreed to the... agreement anyway.

Sony's case is pretty much completely unjustified.

Yeah? What's easier to do, ban people individually for what they do or close the door they come in? I'm not saying this is my favorite idea in the world, I'm saying it sounds very effective and that's what matters to me the most.

Also, I had not heard of Geohot not signing up for PSN. That does change things significantly if true.

Fair enough, Let's ban cars!
Nobody can preform a hit and run if we don't have cars, or clothing, nobody can hide merchandise under their shirt if nobody wears one!
It's a stupid idea, it sets an absurd precident that frankly defies any form of logic you wish to name.

As I said that was my impression, not that it really matters anyway, most of those things aren't legally binding.
Even the ones that are tend to be trumped by the actual law, jailbreaking is pefectly legal as has been said above, if they allow him to be punished for that I'll... pretty much have the same respect for the american legal system as I do now, none.

 

[TheAmazingHobo]

So tell me, why do you guys love Geohot even though you hate piracy? Even though it's the same thing? And you cannot seriously tell me he's only hacking the system for linux, because you all know, people will use it for free games and hacking the PSN... So inb4 any and all linux based responses...

So tell me, why do you make such a fuckton of assumptions and ask so many leading questions ? Even though it sounds really aggresive and weirdly angry ? And you cannot seriously tell me that just declaring the main argument of your opposition invalid helps the discussion in any way ?

Okay, that last one wasn´t technically a question, I know....

Strange, I was under the impression that everyone here loves piracy?

...or maybe we should both just be a little bit more careful about generalizing the escapists?

Well, I for one love piracy.
Nothing like a good plundering to get the blood pumping, switching eyepatches with your mates, burning down wenches, stealing houses and ****** sheeps.
That IS what we are talking about, right ?

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

Fair enough, Let's ban cars!
Nobody can preform a hit and run if we don't have cars, or clothing, nobody can hide merchandise under their shirt if nobody wears one!
It's a stupid idea, it sets an absurd precident that frankly defies any form of logic you wish to name.

As I said that was my impression, not that it really matters anyway, most of those things aren't legally binding.
Even the ones that are tend to be trumped by the actual law, jailbreaking is pefectly legal as has been said above, if they allow him to be punished for that I'll... pretty much have the same respect for the american legal system as I do now, none.

What's the damage to civilization if cars are outlawed? Well, most likely death on a wide scale due to there not being enough food in communities, not to mention any other number of hazards that I don't feel like really thinking out.

What's the damage to civilization if hacking the PS3 isn't allowed on PSN? I don't really know. What is the damage?

Look, I understand the thought process behind what you're suggesting, but there's more logic to what I'm saying than just "ban it because I don't like it." It's also a business decision as people who hate it when people cheat in games (such as myself) will stop buying and using products that cater to that play style. I'm not going to sign up for a service that is continually being destroyed by selfish people, free or not.

The PS3 no longer belongs to Sony after they sell it to you, but their servers do and they can set the requirements for using their servers as they wish.

I'm not suggesting that all cars get banned. I'm suggesting that certain cars get banned on the Highway.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Imagine dell suing you over installing linux on your dell pc.
That's why.

See that everyone? Pretty good analogy there.

To make it clearer what this is about, let's say Dell said it HAD the ability to run Linux on this particular machine 9_6 is talking about and you were really excited. Then they go and have that capability removed for whatever reason. You re-enable that capability AFTER you have bought the machine. Dell says "No." and sues you for it, claiming it is still their machine.

 

[BENZOOKA]

I want Geohot to do well in this case, because it sets an example regarding consumer rights to do anything with the product they've purchased.

 

[HerbertTheHamster]

Because for some reason people always think that CORPORATION R BAD.

 

[moretimethansense]

Fair enough, Let's ban cars!
Nobody can preform a hit and run if we don't have cars, or clothing, nobody can hide merchandise under their shirt if nobody wears one!
It's a stupid idea, it sets an absurd precident that frankly defies any form of logic you wish to name.

As I said that was my impression, not that it really matters anyway, most of those things aren't legally binding.
Even the ones that are tend to be trumped by the actual law, jailbreaking is pefectly legal as has been said above, if they allow him to be punished for that I'll... pretty much have the same respect for the american legal system as I do now, none.

What's the damage to civilization if cars are outlawed? Well, most likely death on a wide scale due to there not being enough food in communities, not to mention any other number of hazards that I don't feel like really thinking out.

What's the damage to civilization if hacking the PS3 isn't allowed on PSN? I don't really know. What is the damage?

Look, I understand the thought process behind what you're suggesting, but there's more logic to what I'm saying than just "ban it because I don't like it." It's also a business decision as people who hate it when people cheat in games (such as myself) will stop buying and using products that cater to that play style. I'm not going to sign up for a service that is continually being destroyed by selfish people, free or not.

The PS3 no longer belongs to Sony after they sell it to you, but their servers do and they can set the requirements for using their servers as they wish.

I'm not suggesting that all cars get banned. I'm suggesting that certain cars get banned on the Highway.

The thing is that banning known cheaters IS the equivelent of banning certain cars from the highway.

I've got nothing against them banning modded consoles off of PSN, but this is sueing anyone that dares interfere with the allmighty Sony.

Also, I take it that you never PC game online then?
Hacking a PC game is infenitly easier than hacking a PS3, people do it all the time.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

The thing is that banning known cheaters IS the equivelent of banning certain cars from the highway.

I've got nothing against them banning modded consoles off of PSN, but this is sueing anyone that dares interfere with the allmighty Sony.

Also, I take it that you never PC game online then?
Hacking a PC game is infenitly easier than hacking a PS3, people do it all the time.

That's right. I don't play online in the vast majority of cases because I got sick of playing with cheaters a long time ago.

I guess I'm reading things the wrong way, as we don't seem to be disagreeing on anything. If Sony is trying to make people not ever be able to mod their property, then I'm against Sony. If this is about keeping modded PS3s off PSN, then I'm with Sony.

 

[newguy77]

I thought this whole thing was about him releasing the PS3 Master Key on the internet after he found it even though he knew that people could use it for pirating games. Sure he may not condone piracy but that doesn't change the fact that he's giving many people the ability to pirate PS3 games.

Again, this is what I remember from the beginning of this whole thing, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about his release of the Master Key.

 

[moretimethansense]

The thing is that banning known cheaters IS the equivelent of banning certain cars from the highway.

I've got nothing against them banning modded consoles off of PSN, but this is sueing anyone that dares interfere with the allmighty Sony.

Also, I take it that you never PC game online then?
Hacking a PC game is infenitly easier than hacking a PS3, people do it all the time.

That's right. I don't play online in the vast majority of cases because I got sick of playing with cheaters a long time ago.

I guess I'm reading things the wrong way, as we don't seem to be disagreeing on anything. If Sony is trying to make people not ever be able to mod their property, then I'm against Sony. If this is about keeping modded PS3s off PSN, then I'm with Sony.

Then it seems we are pretty much in agreement, it IS mostly about not wanting people to mod their own harware however, I think they fear piracy.

I say they should auto ban modded consoles (even if all they do is cutomize the UI and allow homebrews, it is unfortunatly in the agreement) but I say they should keep their dirty mitts off of my console, if I decided to mod it they have no right to say I can't.

 

[Udyrfrykte]

What's that? I love piracy. I call it "student discount"

 

[instantbenz]

As a person that has been burned many times by hackers, I say good on Sony for getting rid of them. From all I've seen, it's next to impossible to keep on top of hackers that want to cheat and this seems like the best option available.

If you want to modify your PS3, go ahead. You just wont be able to do anything in multi-player if you do.

Agreed, cheating is bad.

I remember right when halo 2 came out and xbl started ... cheating was at least in every other match ... pathetic. That made me tired of cheaters. It reminds me of when I jumped on TF2 on the ps3 a few months ago. Wow ... just ... wow.

 

[Sarge034]

I'm anti-piracy, anti-modder, pro-contract, pro-deserving banhammer.

It comes down to this. Like it or not, we as the consumers, signed a contract stating that we would not tamper or mod the machine.

If you don't like the contract don't agree to it and don't buy the system.

BAM! Discussion over.

To get away from the black and white leagel stuff. You can not honestly tell me someone would mod their consol just to get linux. That might be a start, but eventually they will start to hax the games or pirate stuff.

You all don't seem to understand that if hackers and pirates were not doing this shit to begin with the PS3 would have come equiped with linux.

LOL shot themselves in the foot much. :? O

 

[Callate]

...Because sneering that an issue is about piracy and everyone who takes one side is a lousy stinkin' pirate doesn't make it so.

Because the case raises serious questions about things like consumer rights and privacy.

Because signing a EULA (End User License Agreement- which is something quite different from the DMCA, by the way) shouldn't mean you sign away all rights for redress if the company decides to change the rules regarding what the consumer can do with the hardware they purchased, with their own money, to use in their own homes.

Because we live in a world where many companies- especially companies responsible for digital media of various forms- are pushing for an understanding that their customers never purchase anything real, anything that can't be withdrawn on a whim if the company feels that the consumer is doing something they don't like, and many EULAs are designed to make it as easy as possible for them to make that withdrawal at any time while at the same time making it as difficult as possible for a consumer without a law degree to understand the company is staking that right. But the money the consumer spends still ends up in the company's pocket.

Because sometimes the fact that something can be used for illegitimate purposes is not reason enough to censure it, as anyone who has ever owned a VCR or disk-burning-capable drive ought to agree.

Because the fact that something with legitimate uses can also be used for illegitimate ones is sometimes a sign that its the over-arcing system is flawed, not the potential tool or its creator.

And because if this kind of simplistic, demonizing, black-and-white argument is what passes for reasoned discourse on the pro-Sony side, I get a reflexive desire to play devil's advocate for the other team.

 

[FalloutJack]

People would probably support Serial Killers if they only targeted Sony Employees.

Or those that work on Games For Windows. Be fair. There's contention on both sides of the fence.

Still, OP, he didn't wanna keep it under the table. He figured "Hey, this is really cool! Other people will wanna do this!". How could it be illegal? How could it be wrong? Why would any business even care?

 

[Marik2]

What's that? I love piracy. I call it "student discount"

LOL a friend of mine calls it that as well XD

 

[viranimus]

I can't seem to grasp you guys, most of the user base here are crazy against piracy, yet most of you agree with what George Hotz is doing in the PS3 court battle. Why? Is that not the same thing? Everyone agree's to Sony's DCMA (Digital Copyright Millenium Act) when they sign up to use the PSN. This solely prevents you from doing anything to the system, because you have agreed to use the console how sony has intended.

What's that? They took away Linux? Right, that wouldn't have happened if George kept his narcissistic mouth shut when he was blabbing on about hacking the PS3, a year or so ago, he basically made sony remove linux support from their machine, and you guys still spur him on... Sure they could patch over it, but why should they, they aren't recieving revenue from linux, it's the smartest move for them. I don't think the people here should even be angry about linux being removed, because seriously, how many of you actually used linux on your PS3's?

So tell me, why do you guys love Geohot even though you hate piracy? Even though it's the same thing? And you cannot seriously tell me he's only hacking the system for linux, because you all know, people will use it for free games and hacking the PSN... So inb4 any and all linux based responses...

Because it is not even remotely close to being the same thing. Thats what kills me about the anti piracy people in the first place clamoring about how Piracy R Bad because "there is no other reason to do this but for piracy" and in the process illustrating how little they understand about the situation. Its little more than more WMD talk.

For every one person that is hacking something for the soul purpose of piracy there are 10 who are doing it for no other reason than to code their own projects. Geohotz work is that of what makes up the majority, not the minority of pricks who are trying to pirate. Remember, the worst case example is often the most visible.

The reason people come to the defense of GeoHotz is because it is the right thing to do. It is defense of ones right to do whatever they want to something they own. If someone wanted to buy a PS3 for no other reason than to attach a wig and hairbows and enter it into a beauty contest once they own it, they are entitled to do so, no matter how pointless and stupid it might be. If Sony wins this, it is nothing more than giving a corporation rights and liberties that usurp the rights and liberties of individuals. So the real question here is how can anyone be against someone defending their right to do with their property whatever the hell the choose to do with it. Coming to Sonys defense is sort of like saying that Alcohol should be outlawed because there is absolutely no purpose to it other than drunk driving and date rape, and when someone does use alcohol for those purposes it hurts the manufacturers profits because they get sued by people for what they did while using the product.

EDIT: Also, Geohotz talking about it and distributing it. Quite frankly you have got to understand that is the nature of the open source community. Share your work and dont be afraid if someone else takes the ball and runs with it and does something even more great with what you created. The open source community works together in rather unexpected and random collaborations. It is something impressive to behold what a loosely knit group of coders can do and sometimes the results end up being something they didnt even expect. Siding with Sony will only serve to stagnate the technology because new, unusual and wild ideas are rarely profitable for a corporation but are not above some kid spending 10 hours a day coding something to do what it was never intended to do. Just think, if the Piracy R Bad people, and Sony win, we would not have something as interesting as the Kinect hacks for PC & now seemingly PS3 all because "Theres no other reason for you to want to do that but to steal things."

OT: Honestly this defense of corporations nonsense is a major contributing factor to the current downturn in the US economy. Far too long the government has defended and protected corporations and as such Corporations have more rights than individuals and they exploit those rights and protections only to bolster their own profit margins, Not the betterment of the products produced, or to the benefit of the people and in turn only serve to hurt individuals and impede their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness predominantly on an economic and available time level.

 

[FightThePower]

I can't seem to grasp you guys, most of the user base here are crazy against piracy, yet most of you agree with what George Hotz is doing in the PS3 court battle. Why? Is that not the same thing?

Nope, it's not piracy. Hackers are not the same as pirates.

"I let people gain access to the hardware they own, what I do is 100% legal in my country (Canada), and it is equivalent to the recent DMCA Exemption for jailbreaking phones."

If it's legal, it's obviously not piracy. QED.

The fact that not many people use Linux is irrelevant. Sony removed an advertised feature of the PS3. It's the equivalent of Microsoft suddenly putting out a patch one day that removes the ability to play DVDs on your Xbox 360. Plenty of people bought a PS3 because it supported Linux, and Sony disabled that function entirely. It's been declared unlawful in Norway [http://forbrukerportalen.no/Artikler/2011/%20PlayStation_3_violates_the_Norwegian_Marketing_Control_Act], and Sony now have several lawsuits on their arse, so it was hardly 'the smartest move for them'.

If you buy something with your own money, you should be free to do whatever the hell you want to it; according to Sony, if you buy a PS3, you legally don't own it, and Sony can just do whatever the hell they want with your console that you bought, legally, with your own money. That doesn't strike you as wrong?