GeoHot's Lawyer Responds to Sony's Claims

[Waif]

Wow, calm down man. There's no need to get antagonistic. I just expressed my feelings about how GeoHotz is handling this. I did read what you had said, however, it seems you haven't read what I said.

He is still a criminal because of what he has "done". Hacking into protected property, and posting vital IP is criminal action. He is a criminal, no different than the criminals who hack into banks and post credit card information. Nothing will change what he has done. I do hope that he gets what is coming to him, because he should get what all criminals deserve. Just because you don't see him as a criminal, doesn't mean that the courts won't eventually take it to that level. I sincerely hope they do.

There's nothing to calm down, and no antagonizing. As I--and now another--are just trying to explain to you: even Sony isn't accusing him of being a criminal. Sony is saying he broke a civil agreement.

And you're also not understanding that a person can't be found guilty or responsible if their trial hasn't even started.

If Sony isn't even claiming he's a criminal, why are you?

It's just basic logic, which I thought was apparent. I used the analogy of hackers and credit cards to illustrate this principle. Just because Sony hasn't directly referred to GeoHotz as a criminal, doesn't mean he isn't. It's like saying that a thief who stole some candy from a store isn't a criminal until the store owner calls him that or it is decided that way by a court? There are just some connections that are easier to make than others, and I know I am not the only one who can think this about GeoHotz. What we are talking about here is opinion, and of course it seems ours differ. I don't feel any good can be gained from further discussion.

 

[Jumwa]

It's just basic logic, which I thought was apparent. I used the analogy of hackers and credit cards to illustrate this principle. Just because Sony hasn't directly referred to GeoHotz as a criminal, doesn't mean he isn't. It's like saying that a thief who stole some candy from a store isn't a criminal until the store owner calls him that or it is decided that way by a court? There are just some connections that are easier to make than others, and I know I am not the only one who can think this about GeoHotz. What we are talking about here is opinion, and of course it seems ours differ. I don't feel any good can be gained from further discussion.

That much is apparent, as you still don't quite understand what constitutes a crime. And even if GeoHotz loses his case in the worst possible way, he still wont be a criminal by any rational or legal definition.

 

[Waif]

Well perhaps GeoHotz shouldn't have hacked the PS3 root key then posted it online for everyone to see. He not be on trial for murder, but he is a criminal, clearly. Personally, I would put my life on hold over something that could change my life for the worse, and I think many other sensible people would do the same. Though this doesn't change anything. He's already in SA, kicking it back, drinking a Marguerite. I just wouldn't do it myself given the same circumstances.

Did you not read a word I said?

He is NOT a criminal. Even IF he is found guilty--and the trial hasn't even STARTED yet--he'd still not be guilty of a criminal offense.

To be a criminal, you'd first need to be charged with a criminal offense, then you'd need to be convicted of it. Nothing about this is criminal, this is a civil case.

And as for what he should or shouldn't do: this thing could drag on for years, the trial hasn't even started yet. If every person who had a civil suit issued against them were treated like a criminal and not allowed to vacation or live a normal life, we'd have have one very messed up world.

Wow, calm down man. There's no need to get antagonistic. I just expressed my feelings about how GeoHotz is handling this. I did read what you had said, however, it seems you haven't read what I said.

He is still a criminal because of what he has "done". Hacking into protected property, and posting vital IP is criminal action. He is a criminal, no different than the criminals who hack into banks and post credit card information. Nothing will change what he has done. I do hope that he gets what is coming to him, because he should get what all criminals deserve. Just because you don't see him as a criminal, doesn't mean that the courts won't eventually take it to that level. I sincerely hope they do.

Have to disagree with you, Waif. No criminal activity occured. As it has been said before, this is a civil matter. What is being discussed legally is whether or not GeoHotz's actions were in breach of a "contract". The two major things to this is 1) If cracking the PS3 root key violated said contract, which I don't believe it would since such contracts usually cover on-line behaviors on modding and 2) Whether GeoHotz's actions of posting the root key on-line was in breach of contract, as his actions directly resulted in the device being used for illegal activities. This is the major one Sony has to prove, as tying a link between the two should prove to be interesting.

As for the debate of whether or not a PS3 is technically "yours" or "theirs", the following anology should suffice. I buy a vacuum cleaner directly from its manufacturer. I, then, take the vacuum cleaner apart, find out what components do what and then make a flame thrower out of it. Then, I post said knowledge on the internet. Now, the manufacturer sues me for doing something to its machine and posting how it can be done.

Granted, in this analogy, it's clearer to see that I have, indeed, made something VERY dangerous and the debate could rage on whether my actions will bring great harm (or great BBQs) to the public and thus, damage the manufacturer's reputation/image. The same can be said for GeoHot and his battle with Sony, however, distribution of knowledge should be no crime, IMO. If someone else other than GeoHot uses this information with illegal intent, then it is the fault of the person who commits that offense, not GeoHot. Unless, of course, it IS GeoHot, then the whole damned debate will rage on until the technology involved is so outdated, we wondered why we even wasted breath on the issue in the first place.

Well analogies aside, the reality of the situation is that GeoHotz posted the key online for everyone to see and abuse. This is in itself an act that undermines the security of the PS3 systems and can cause problems when it comes to piracy. I believe that Geohotz hasn't done any gamer any favors. His actions may have just caused a deluge of piracy, which hurts gamers everywhere. I don't feel I need to explain that part, because unlike your vacuum cleaner analogy, this would only serve to hurt the industry. Geohotz has effectively shot every gamer in the back, he is not a friend to the gaming community.

I quite frankly want to see him punished for what he has done, which is attack the very gaming community that I subscribe to, and that is something criminal at least in my eyes (I don't care if it's in civil court or not, he's still a criminal). Unless you can argue effectively that he has somehow benefited gamers? That he has somehow helped the gaming industry in posting the root key for it to be abused?

 

[Dogstile]

I don't get the problem. He modded/tampered with the console, that breaks the user agreement, he has opened the console to piracy. In what way is he not guilty?

*sigh* because unless you sign the agreement before you buy the console it doesn't count.

Your sarcasm makes you so cool.

But doesn't the agreement say that buy buying the console you agree to the user agreement?

It really does. In fact, i'm being purposely sarcastic because I think being cool is important. Its not because I find it easier to communicate through sarcasm at all.

However, with the point at hand, I shall be serious, if you wish.

If the agreement says that you buying the console makes you agree to the agreement automatically, it still wouldn't count. The customer needs to be made aware of such an agreement before the transaction. As this is not the normal process for buying consoles, the agreement means nothing in this case.

Its actually been proven a few times that EULA's do not hold up in court. I hope that helps

 

[2xDouble]

They're both being dicks. There are precedents for stuff like this. Sony, split the money (cut the fine in half, whatever the hell you're suing for) and hire the kid to break stuff for you.

Then again, neither side would go for it. As I said before, they're both dicks.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Well perhaps GeoHotz shouldn't have hacked the PS3 root key then posted it online for everyone to see. He not be on trial for murder, but he is a criminal, clearly. Personally, I would put my life on hold over something that could change my life for the worse, and I think many other sensible people would do the same. Though this doesn't change anything. He's already in SA, kicking it back, drinking a Marguerite. I just wouldn't do it myself given the same circumstances.

Did you not read a word I said?

He is NOT a criminal. Even IF he is found guilty--and the trial hasn't even STARTED yet--he'd still not be guilty of a criminal offense.

To be a criminal, you'd first need to be charged with a criminal offense, then you'd need to be convicted of it. Nothing about this is criminal, this is a civil case.

And as for what he should or shouldn't do: this thing could drag on for years, the trial hasn't even started yet. If every person who had a civil suit issued against them were treated like a criminal and not allowed to vacation or live a normal life, we'd have have one very messed up world.

Wow, calm down man. There's no need to get antagonistic. I just expressed my feelings about how GeoHotz is handling this. I did read what you had said, however, it seems you haven't read what I said.

He is still a criminal because of what he has "done". Hacking into protected property, and posting vital IP is criminal action. He is a criminal, no different than the criminals who hack into banks and post credit card information. Nothing will change what he has done. I do hope that he gets what is coming to him, because he should get what all criminals deserve. Just because you don't see him as a criminal, doesn't mean that the courts won't eventually take it to that level. I sincerely hope they do.

Have to disagree with you, Waif. No criminal activity occured. As it has been said before, this is a civil matter. What is being discussed legally is whether or not GeoHotz's actions were in breach of a "contract". The two major things to this is 1) If cracking the PS3 root key violated said contract, which I don't believe it would since such contracts usually cover on-line behaviors on modding and 2) Whether GeoHotz's actions of posting the root key on-line was in breach of contract, as his actions directly resulted in the device being used for illegal activities. This is the major one Sony has to prove, as tying a link between the two should prove to be interesting.

As for the debate of whether or not a PS3 is technically "yours" or "theirs", the following anology should suffice. I buy a vacuum cleaner directly from its manufacturer. I, then, take the vacuum cleaner apart, find out what components do what and then make a flame thrower out of it. Then, I post said knowledge on the internet. Now, the manufacturer sues me for doing something to its machine and posting how it can be done.

Granted, in this analogy, it's clearer to see that I have, indeed, made something VERY dangerous and the debate could rage on whether my actions will bring great harm (or great BBQs) to the public and thus, damage the manufacturer's reputation/image. The same can be said for GeoHot and his battle with Sony, however, distribution of knowledge should be no crime, IMO. If someone else other than GeoHot uses this information with illegal intent, then it is the fault of the person who commits that offense, not GeoHot. Unless, of course, it IS GeoHot, then the whole damned debate will rage on until the technology involved is so outdated, we wondered why we even wasted breath on the issue in the first place.

Well analogies aside, the reality of the situation is that GeoHotz posted the key online for everyone to see and abuse. This is in itself an act that undermines the security of the PS3 systems and can cause problems when it comes to piracy. I believe that Geohotz hasn't done any gamer any favors. His actions may have just caused a deluge of piracy, which hurts gamers everywhere. I don't feel I need to explain that part, because unlike your vacuum cleaner analogy, this would only serve to hurt the industry. Geohotz has effectively shot every gamer in the back, he is not a friend to the gaming community.

I quite frankly want to see him punished for what he has done, which is attack the very gaming community that I subscribe to, and that is something criminal at least in my eyes (I don't care if it's in civil court or not, he's still a criminal). Unless you can argue effectively that he has somehow benefited gamers? That he has somehow helped the gaming industry in posting the root key for it to be abused?

It all depends, my friend. All information is a tool of the user. GeoHotz's actions were just that - his actions. That the information is out there now is of little concern; it is what people will do with the information. And guess who those people are?

Gamers.

That you blame GeoHot can effectively mean you blame the people who will use it for purposes outside of its intended use. His intelligence, along with his actions, have now empowered others who will read what he has done. Yet, who is to say someone won't read how the root key was discovered and go "You know, that's clever - but I think I can make it better"? Your concern is humankind's tendency towards the selfish, towards the personal benefits - and rightfully so, for it is humankind's legacy thus far. Can this be curbed? Can this incident be transformed into a positive one? It most certainly can be, but it will take people who will stand up and say that "we can improve upon this for the betterment of all" instead of those who would seek this information to use for their own personal gain or benefit.

It will take people like you and me to say that, even though this has transpired, we can learn from it, improve upon it and show that both gamers and game makers can benefit, and perhaps profit, from it. Am I an idealist for imagining such a scenario? Perhaps, but then, so was Martin Luther King, Jr., so was John Lennon, and so was Jesus (if you're of a mind to see his tale for what it is) in their own ways. There is no doubt in my mind that negative things might come out of his actions, but I'd like to see if there are those who would share the positive things that might discover from this. Who knows, we might see something come of this that we never would have seen before had this not occured. It'll be up to the gamers to decide that, I suppose.

 

[manaman]

If their is the one reason why I don't support him and its slightly due to how ppl view it.

OMG Sony is a big bad corporation! How dare they look out for themselves? I mean shouldn't all companies look out for everyone elses need?

Just because something isn't illegal, and it is understandable doesn't make it right. Yes, a corporation wants you to pay good money for products that you never actually own and wants you to roll over and take it. You are obviously fine with taking it. I am not. I think it is high time we pushed the same consumer protections that exist with other products onto electronics and software.

 

[Waif]

Well perhaps GeoHotz shouldn't have hacked the PS3 root key then posted it online for everyone to see. He not be on trial for murder, but he is a criminal, clearly. Personally, I would put my life on hold over something that could change my life for the worse, and I think many other sensible people would do the same. Though this doesn't change anything. He's already in SA, kicking it back, drinking a Marguerite. I just wouldn't do it myself given the same circumstances.

Did you not read a word I said?

He is NOT a criminal. Even IF he is found guilty--and the trial hasn't even STARTED yet--he'd still not be guilty of a criminal offense.

To be a criminal, you'd first need to be charged with a criminal offense, then you'd need to be convicted of it. Nothing about this is criminal, this is a civil case.

And as for what he should or shouldn't do: this thing could drag on for years, the trial hasn't even started yet. If every person who had a civil suit issued against them were treated like a criminal and not allowed to vacation or live a normal life, we'd have have one very messed up world.

Wow, calm down man. There's no need to get antagonistic. I just expressed my feelings about how GeoHotz is handling this. I did read what you had said, however, it seems you haven't read what I said.

He is still a criminal because of what he has "done". Hacking into protected property, and posting vital IP is criminal action. He is a criminal, no different than the criminals who hack into banks and post credit card information. Nothing will change what he has done. I do hope that he gets what is coming to him, because he should get what all criminals deserve. Just because you don't see him as a criminal, doesn't mean that the courts won't eventually take it to that level. I sincerely hope they do.

Have to disagree with you, Waif. No criminal activity occured. As it has been said before, this is a civil matter. What is being discussed legally is whether or not GeoHotz's actions were in breach of a "contract". The two major things to this is 1) If cracking the PS3 root key violated said contract, which I don't believe it would since such contracts usually cover on-line behaviors on modding and 2) Whether GeoHotz's actions of posting the root key on-line was in breach of contract, as his actions directly resulted in the device being used for illegal activities. This is the major one Sony has to prove, as tying a link between the two should prove to be interesting.

As for the debate of whether or not a PS3 is technically "yours" or "theirs", the following anology should suffice. I buy a vacuum cleaner directly from its manufacturer. I, then, take the vacuum cleaner apart, find out what components do what and then make a flame thrower out of it. Then, I post said knowledge on the internet. Now, the manufacturer sues me for doing something to its machine and posting how it can be done.

Granted, in this analogy, it's clearer to see that I have, indeed, made something VERY dangerous and the debate could rage on whether my actions will bring great harm (or great BBQs) to the public and thus, damage the manufacturer's reputation/image. The same can be said for GeoHot and his battle with Sony, however, distribution of knowledge should be no crime, IMO. If someone else other than GeoHot uses this information with illegal intent, then it is the fault of the person who commits that offense, not GeoHot. Unless, of course, it IS GeoHot, then the whole damned debate will rage on until the technology involved is so outdated, we wondered why we even wasted breath on the issue in the first place.

Well analogies aside, the reality of the situation is that GeoHotz posted the key online for everyone to see and abuse. This is in itself an act that undermines the security of the PS3 systems and can cause problems when it comes to piracy. I believe that Geohotz hasn't done any gamer any favors. His actions may have just caused a deluge of piracy, which hurts gamers everywhere. I don't feel I need to explain that part, because unlike your vacuum cleaner analogy, this would only serve to hurt the industry. Geohotz has effectively shot every gamer in the back, he is not a friend to the gaming community.

I quite frankly want to see him punished for what he has done, which is attack the very gaming community that I subscribe to, and that is something criminal at least in my eyes (I don't care if it's in civil court or not, he's still a criminal). Unless you can argue effectively that he has somehow benefited gamers? That he has somehow helped the gaming industry in posting the root key for it to be abused?

It all depends, my friend. All information is a tool of the user. GeoHotz's actions were just that - his actions. That the information is out there now is of little concern; it is what people will do with the information. And guess who those people are?

Gamers.

That you blame GeoHot can effectively mean you blame the people who will use it for purposes outside of its intended use. His intelligence, along with his actions, have now empowered others who will read what he has done. Yet, who is to say someone won't read how the root key was discovered and go "You know, that's clever - but I think I can make it better"? Your concern is humankind's tendency towards the selfish, towards the personal benefits - and rightfully so, for it is humankind's legacy thus far. Can this be curbed? Can this incident be transformed into a positive one? It most certainly can be, but it will take people who will stand up and say that "we can improve upon this for the betterment of all" instead of those who would seek this information to use for their own personal gain or benefit.

It will take people like you and me to say that, even though this has transpired, we can learn from it, improve upon it and show that both gamers and game makers can benefit, and perhaps profit, from it. Am I an idealist for imagining such a scenario? Perhaps, but then, so was Martin Luther King, Jr., so was John Lennon, and so was Jesus (if you're of a mind to see his tale for what it is) in their own ways. There is no doubt in my mind that negative things might come out of his actions, but I'd like to see if there are those who would share the positive things that might discover from this. Who knows, we might see something come of this that we never would have seen before had this not occured. It'll be up to the gamers to decide that, I suppose.

Yes that is true, we may indeed see something positive come about from this. Though until people know what it is to change a dream, I am highly doubtful as to a positive outcome. As is the case with Martin Luther King Jr., John Lennon, and Jesus. It took other people to realize their dream, and be motivated to change that dream in others. Undeniably an ambiguous trait in which we all possess to a varying degree, used for both extremes and everything in between. It can go either way, but what matters is consensus, and I think it would take more than just the two of us talking about these things to make a change in that consensus.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Well perhaps GeoHotz shouldn't have hacked the PS3 root key then posted it online for everyone to see. He not be on trial for murder, but he is a criminal, clearly. Personally, I would put my life on hold over something that could change my life for the worse, and I think many other sensible people would do the same. Though this doesn't change anything. He's already in SA, kicking it back, drinking a Marguerite. I just wouldn't do it myself given the same circumstances.

Did you not read a word I said?

He is NOT a criminal. Even IF he is found guilty--and the trial hasn't even STARTED yet--he'd still not be guilty of a criminal offense.

To be a criminal, you'd first need to be charged with a criminal offense, then you'd need to be convicted of it. Nothing about this is criminal, this is a civil case.

And as for what he should or shouldn't do: this thing could drag on for years, the trial hasn't even started yet. If every person who had a civil suit issued against them were treated like a criminal and not allowed to vacation or live a normal life, we'd have have one very messed up world.

Wow, calm down man. There's no need to get antagonistic. I just expressed my feelings about how GeoHotz is handling this. I did read what you had said, however, it seems you haven't read what I said.

He is still a criminal because of what he has "done". Hacking into protected property, and posting vital IP is criminal action. He is a criminal, no different than the criminals who hack into banks and post credit card information. Nothing will change what he has done. I do hope that he gets what is coming to him, because he should get what all criminals deserve. Just because you don't see him as a criminal, doesn't mean that the courts won't eventually take it to that level. I sincerely hope they do.

Have to disagree with you, Waif. No criminal activity occured. As it has been said before, this is a civil matter. What is being discussed legally is whether or not GeoHotz's actions were in breach of a "contract". The two major things to this is 1) If cracking the PS3 root key violated said contract, which I don't believe it would since such contracts usually cover on-line behaviors on modding and 2) Whether GeoHotz's actions of posting the root key on-line was in breach of contract, as his actions directly resulted in the device being used for illegal activities. This is the major one Sony has to prove, as tying a link between the two should prove to be interesting.

As for the debate of whether or not a PS3 is technically "yours" or "theirs", the following anology should suffice. I buy a vacuum cleaner directly from its manufacturer. I, then, take the vacuum cleaner apart, find out what components do what and then make a flame thrower out of it. Then, I post said knowledge on the internet. Now, the manufacturer sues me for doing something to its machine and posting how it can be done.

Granted, in this analogy, it's clearer to see that I have, indeed, made something VERY dangerous and the debate could rage on whether my actions will bring great harm (or great BBQs) to the public and thus, damage the manufacturer's reputation/image. The same can be said for GeoHot and his battle with Sony, however, distribution of knowledge should be no crime, IMO. If someone else other than GeoHot uses this information with illegal intent, then it is the fault of the person who commits that offense, not GeoHot. Unless, of course, it IS GeoHot, then the whole damned debate will rage on until the technology involved is so outdated, we wondered why we even wasted breath on the issue in the first place.

Well analogies aside, the reality of the situation is that GeoHotz posted the key online for everyone to see and abuse. This is in itself an act that undermines the security of the PS3 systems and can cause problems when it comes to piracy. I believe that Geohotz hasn't done any gamer any favors. His actions may have just caused a deluge of piracy, which hurts gamers everywhere. I don't feel I need to explain that part, because unlike your vacuum cleaner analogy, this would only serve to hurt the industry. Geohotz has effectively shot every gamer in the back, he is not a friend to the gaming community.

I quite frankly want to see him punished for what he has done, which is attack the very gaming community that I subscribe to, and that is something criminal at least in my eyes (I don't care if it's in civil court or not, he's still a criminal). Unless you can argue effectively that he has somehow benefited gamers? That he has somehow helped the gaming industry in posting the root key for it to be abused?

It all depends, my friend. All information is a tool of the user. GeoHotz's actions were just that - his actions. That the information is out there now is of little concern; it is what people will do with the information. And guess who those people are?

Gamers.

That you blame GeoHot can effectively mean you blame the people who will use it for purposes outside of its intended use. His intelligence, along with his actions, have now empowered others who will read what he has done. Yet, who is to say someone won't read how the root key was discovered and go "You know, that's clever - but I think I can make it better"? Your concern is humankind's tendency towards the selfish, towards the personal benefits - and rightfully so, for it is humankind's legacy thus far. Can this be curbed? Can this incident be transformed into a positive one? It most certainly can be, but it will take people who will stand up and say that "we can improve upon this for the betterment of all" instead of those who would seek this information to use for their own personal gain or benefit.

It will take people like you and me to say that, even though this has transpired, we can learn from it, improve upon it and show that both gamers and game makers can benefit, and perhaps profit, from it. Am I an idealist for imagining such a scenario? Perhaps, but then, so was Martin Luther King, Jr., so was John Lennon, and so was Jesus (if you're of a mind to see his tale for what it is) in their own ways. There is no doubt in my mind that negative things might come out of his actions, but I'd like to see if there are those who would share the positive things that might discover from this. Who knows, we might see something come of this that we never would have seen before had this not occured. It'll be up to the gamers to decide that, I suppose.

Yes that is true, we may indeed see something positive come about from this. Though until people know what it is to change a dream, I am highly doubtful as to a positive outcome. As is the case with Martin Luther King Jr., John Lennon, and Jesus. It took other people to realize their dream, and be motivated to change that dream in others. Undeniably an ambiguous trait in which we all possess to a varying degree, used for both extremes and everything in between. It can go either way, but what matters is consensus, and I think it would take more than just the two of us talking about these things to make a change in that consensus.

Quite true. Soooo, how about we do our part to try and change that consensus, in our own ways, for the better? Rather than lay blame at people's feet...there's already been too much of that in the world. *extends handshake*