Georgia and Russia on Brink of War

[dart sifilis]

As for the Glory of the Red Army (I think it is still called that...)

Everything "red" ended with Soviet Union )
Now it is just Russia's army.
And, btw, conflict is over. Russian President and Frech one signed some 6-staged paper about how everybody are going to live from now on. South Ossetia stayed where it was, Georgian soldiers returned to where they were before conflict, Russian troops moved out from Georgia with the exception of some little amount of people who'll just watch the situation there and perform all kinds of help for Ossetians. Georgian president had remained in his chair, no regime changing as we can see (though I hoped it will be). But still some minor fire-fights continue in Tskhinvali.

 

[Alex_P]

people without the prequisite number of vowels in their names

Both Russian and Georgian are beautiful, melodic language full of wonderful vowels. English transliterations just make them seem bad because the English alphabet is missing symbols for some consonants that are popular in other languages, so we end up filling everything with "sh" and "tch" and other multi-letter shit like that. And because English doesn't have a truly standard character for "this other letter is a soft sound" (which would clear up a lot of the confusion as to how to pronounce text, in this case).

-- Alex

 

[werepossum]

people without the prequisite number of vowels in their names

Both Russian and Georgian are beautiful, melodic language full of wonderful vowels. SNIP -- Alex

Agreed. I've always like Russian especially, and Georgian too is a pretty language.

Guys, I don't think you quite understand what just happened. South Ossetia and Abkhazia are now Russian. Effectively, Georgia just joined the Russian Empire. It's hard to demonstrate with Canada or the USA because we're so big, so I'll use Belgium and their long accustomed invader, Germany. Say it's 1960 and you're President Whatnot of Belgium (work with me here) and the inhabitants of West Liege decide they want to be their own country, Greater Liege (hopefully combined with their counterparts in Germany's East Liege). So they declare themselves to be their own country. And the inhabitants of Oost-Vlanderen decide that they too want to secede. Germany's just relinquished control of your tiny country fifteen years ago and you're desperately looking for allies to maintain your independence, while Germany's re-armed and looking to re-assert its historic influence. Seeing your ongoing low-level war with your separatists, Germany steps in and makes them German citizens. The separatists bomb you, you bomb them, and then Germany comes in, smashing your military and taking both West Liege and Oost-Vlanderen as integral parts of Germany, and calls for your ouster.

Now you have heavily armed Germany forces within 100 kilometers on two different sides, allowing them to cut your country in half and invest your capital within a couple of hours. Your forces are completely unable to stop the Germans from moving in and finishing the job whenever they wish. So what do you do? Simple - you become Germany's *****. Germany has an issue in the UN, you raise it, and you vote the way Germany wants. Germany wants to run a pipeline across your territory, they dictate the terms - and they insure that no one else runs a pipeline without first reaching an accommodation with Germany. If you don't do as you're told, the rebels increase the violence - mining roads, shelling villages, sniping - until you either back down, or you take action. And then Germany removes you.

Saakashvili is playing the part of Marshal Petain, Georgia the part of Vichy France. Just as Vichy France was a possession of the Germany Empire, its independence a charade to provide Germany a veneer of legitimacy and a useful tool, so is Georgia reduced to a possession of the Russian Empire. Georgia has as much independence as Russia finds useful, and if Saakashvili causes problems he'll be removed in one way or another and replaced with a more compliant "leader". If Georgia forms a guerrilla force and attempts to throw Russia out, Georgia becomes Chechnya. Not very attractive options.

Putin won big here. By moving as many forces as he did as quickly as he did he demonstrated to anyone with moderate understanding of logistics and mass troop movements that he planned this from the start - and that he wants them to know. Furthermore, he pulled it off under our very noses, as East Ossetia has been a hot spot watched since '91. We knew he had a couple of divisions in the Caucasus conducting "anti-terrorism" maneuvers; we had no clue he was planning this sort of action, even as it was unfolding. This was a brilliantly planned, brilliantly executed, exquisitely timed operation, every bit as as good as anything NATO could have pulled off. Furthermore, no one started any troop movements except Ukraine, and they soon stopped. (Selfishly, I'm glad. If Ukraine had come to Georgia's defense, either both countries fall or NATO gets drawn in. If NATO gets drawn in and neither side backs down, it's World War 3. Do you begin to understand the level of chance Putin took? And his level of confidence?)

Russia has proved to the world that the USA and NATO are paper tigers, unable to protect their supposed friends from Russia. Russia has also proved to the world that it's willing and quite able to take back former Soviet satellites if they don't follow Russia's lead. Anybody catch Russia accusing Ukraine this past Saturday of aiding the Georgians in "ethnic cleansing"? Remember Russia's attempt to kill the pro-western Yushchenko via dioxin poisoning? Remember which country refuses to extradite the suspected poisoner or make him available for questioning? Remember Russia cutting off gas to Ukraine to punish them for loosening ties to Russian and strengthening ties to the west? This isn't over, folks - the Russian Empire is rebuilding. You may not think it matters to you, but the world is a vastly different place than it was just two weeks ago.

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSL9126746
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4105035.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4574630.stm

 

[hem dazon 90]

i was just at 7-11 and it seems bush roots for georgia or the future russian provice georgia the way things are going over there

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

That IS all very intriguing werepossum but they seem pretty benevolent. As long as my country tis of thee can keep it in its pants I don't think Russia is going to bother anyone...oh...we are fucked, aren't we?

I can already see the cycle kicking in. Guy we pretty much appointed does too good of a job and we come in screaming, "facist" and moshfuck ourselves into a war. Cross your fingers, folks...

 

[SilentHunter7]

I only see a giant dick-waving contest, and Putin running a policy of Realpolitik. Russia's intentions are far from noble. A man like Putin doesn't cause an international incident, risk starting a major war, and ruin his country's standing in the international community because a some inconsequential backwater region wants to join his country. He's getting something out of it. Either because he's testing the world's response like Hitler did in the 30's, or because of the Oil Pipeline.

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

I only see a giant dick-waving contest, and Putin running a policy of Realpolitik. Russia's intentions are far from noble. A man like Putin doesn't cause an international incident, risk starting a major war, and ruin his country's standing in the international community because a some inconsequential backwater region wants to join his country. He's getting something out of it. Either because he's testing the world's response like Hitler did in the 30's, or because of the Oil Pipeline.

Well when I say, "benevolent" their country is sort of financially destitute and will probably go to certain measures to achieve an economic stability...

 

[z121231211]

I only see a giant dick-waving contest, and Putin running a policy of Realpolitik. Russia's intentions are far from noble. A man like Putin doesn't cause an international incident, risk starting a major war, and ruin his country's standing in the international community because a some inconsequential backwater region wants to join his country. He's getting something out of it. Either because he's testing the world's response like Hitler did in the 30's, or because of the Oil Pipeline.

Godwin's law in action.

 

[josh797]

i dont know this is confusing. unless russia genuinely cares about osetias independance, (which i doubt) i cant figure out why they stopped and agreed to the ceasefire. i mean what have they gained? did they accomplish what they wanted to?

 

[dart sifilis]

i mean what have they gained? did they accomplish what they wanted to?

I think we can only wait to see what Georgia, South Ossetia and Russia will do after all mess with tons of wounded and homeless is sorted out.
BTW, I'm still sure that we won't see reestablishing of so-called 'Russia Empire'. That's still just seeing Russia as "red empire of evil".

 

[Doug]

I only see a giant dick-waving contest, and Putin running a policy of Realpolitik. Russia's intentions are far from noble. A man like Putin doesn't cause an international incident, risk starting a major war, and ruin his country's standing in the international community because a some inconsequential backwater region wants to join his country. He's getting something out of it. Either because he's testing the world's response like Hitler did in the 30's, or because of the Oil Pipeline.

Russia has 4 reasons to go to war with Georgia:-
1) The oil pipeline is a direct competitor for providing energy to the west.
2) Georgia is trying to join NATO - given Georgia's strategic position, this would present possible enemies on two fronts to the Russians.
3) Russia did give Russian passports to the Georgians in Ossetia, technically making them Russian citizens - whether this was geniue or merely to allow for a pretext to war is unknown.
4) Russia want to show their strength to the west, and the east (i.e. China, etc) too.

Further, you can argue the humanatian nature of military operation... but we'll see.

 

[Lord Krunk]

Apparently, an important oil pipeline is involved.

This is pretty much the East Timor thing over in the south-east asia region.

East Timor is South Ossetia, Indonesia is Georgia, and, arguably, Australia is Russia.

Except the world isn't backing Russia, and it didn't take decades to get this started like ET. Seriously, I think America and NATO are scared that the fighting will hit the pipline in Georgia.

Honestly, if this was a peacekeeping mission by Russia, they would have stopped by now.

It's just an expansion scheme, and dibs on the oil.

I'm on no-one's side (everyone's in the wrong), although Georgia doesn't deserve to be obliterated like this. The way I hear it, most of the South Ossetians were happy with the Georgians running them.

 

[Limos]

Russia already invaded Georgia. At least they have watching the news a few hours ago. I'm not really sure if I'm just late to the discussion.

 

[dart sifilis]

Honestly, if this was a peacekeeping mission by Russia, they would have stopped by now.

They kinda already did. Troops are moving out already.

 

[werepossum]

Come on guys, one more round of how peaceful and benevolent the Russians are.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4526683.ece

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2008/aug/14/georgia?picture=336566147

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080814/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_russia_georgia

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ayrpPV6nJ4Qk&refer=worldwide

On the plus side, the Russians finally figured out a way to placate the Chechnyans - let 'em loot Georgia!

Note especially the last link and that unlike Georgia, Ukraine actually has a large base of ethnic Russians. No need to issue passports and adopt them.

 

[Saskwach]

i mean what have they gained? did they accomplish what they wanted to?

I think we can only wait to see what Georgia, South Ossetia and Russia will do after all mess with tons of wounded and homeless is sorted out.
BTW, I'm still sure that we won't see reestablishing of so-called 'Russia Empire'. That's still just seeing Russia as "red empire of evil".

Russia likes its satellite states being, well, satellites. Putin has just made clear that if they're not under his thumb then the next best thing would be that they s**t themselves with fear. That's not an empire but it's definitely toeing the line.

 

[Doug]

i mean what have they gained? did they accomplish what they wanted to?

I think we can only wait to see what Georgia, South Ossetia and Russia will do after all mess with tons of wounded and homeless is sorted out.
BTW, I'm still sure that we won't see reestablishing of so-called 'Russia Empire'. That's still just seeing Russia as "red empire of evil".

Russia likes its satellite states being, well, satellites. Putin has just made clear that if they're not under his thumb then the next best thing would be that they s**t themselves with fear. That's not an empire but it's definitely toeing the line.

Any more than the 'liberation' of Iraq where in about 41,000 at least civilans have died, the 'weapons of mass-destruction' haven't been found, etc? Or any more than the ghetto that the palestine has been converted into by the Israel's?

Although I do think the Russian motives aren't noble, lets not forget that Georgians where the one's shelling the Ossetian capital at the start of the war.