German Consumer Group Sues Valve

[balberoy]

Actually I wondered why Valve won the first trial. Actually the german law (like nearly all laws) lack the real world that goes on. The german law states, that when you buy a "product" you can do whatever you want with that product.

To buy a game in a shop (Gamestop for instance) means you can sell that "product" again. Software license is misused in this usage when you sell it to an endconsumer.

Endconsumers have rights, even a license can be sold. Like the European Court ruled. So shops like Steam have to give the option to sell games, if its not completely unreasable and would cost millions to do so.

But Steam allready has the shop option, and it would be easy to put "games form your library" there, so it is not unreasonable buy any stretch of the imaganiation.

So you could say, that the XBox Store and the Sony platform, had to change their ways too. When Valve looses, they can all change theri system.

 

[BrotherRool]

If you buy a Valve game in a store with a box and disk, or any game in a store that has Steam support, despite having the physical disk, it's impossible to resell it because Valve binds it to your steam account and forbids reselling.

So Valve actually already has that anti-used game DRM for phyiscal disks that everyones complaining at Sony for potentially having. This may/should be part of the German lawsuit

Apparently, Germany doesn't get how software licensing works...

Germany is within the EU. The EU has made regulations declaring Digital Resale and rejecting the software licensing scheme.
http://www.joystiq.com/2012/07/03/eu-court-rules-its-legal-to-resell-digital-games-software/

You can't really say that a country doesn't 'understand' something like this, because its up to the country to decide what is and what isn't permissible. Just because someone tried to describe something as licensing doesn't mean the EU has to listen

 

[balberoy]

But seriously people need to figure that when you buy a digital game you are not really buying the game. You are buying unlimited access to a specific game in the steam library for as long as the Steam Library is able to legally provide access to the game. Read the Terms of Service.

This is the trade off with digital ownership. convenient, flexible buuuut sketchy. The second question is quite frankly, why would you want to resell it and who would buy it. It'll either create a case of people buying a ton of licenses when the game is on sale and then selling the games at cost+50% when the game goes back to full price. Which while fair does kinda hose the game makers. The end result would be devs gradually migrating to other distribution networks.

This could be "unfair" treatment of endconsumers, wich it forbidden by law in germany. Cause there is no other way to activate certrain games. As the license could be labeled a product, the rules used for a product would be in progress, so they would have to make it possible. Otherwise Steam would have to make large payments as long as they don't change Steam.

 

[Lilani]

Oh good, when I saw the headline I thought it was something important.

I'm a bit meh on the whole thing. Considering on-disc DLC is allowed to happen, and companies can deny you the ability to play a single-player game if you are so unfortunate as to not have a consistent Internet connection, I think not being able to resell Steam games is a pretty minor problem at this point.

 

[Timmey]

If its not in their terms of service that you can re sell them then how can they sue them? They agreed to the terms of service, if they don't agree with them, then don't agree with them, and use a different platform. I really don't get it ?

 

[Albino Boo]

But seriously people need to figure that when you buy a digital game you are not really buying the game. You are buying unlimited access to a specific game in the steam library for as long as the Steam Library is able to legally provide access to the game. Read the Terms of Service.

This is the trade off with digital ownership. convenient, flexible buuuut sketchy. The second question is quite frankly, why would you want to resell it and who would buy it. It'll either create a case of people buying a ton of licenses when the game is on sale and then selling the games at cost+50% when the game goes back to full price. Which while fair does kinda hose the game makers. The end result would be devs gradually migrating to other distribution networks.

This could be "unfair" treatment of endconsumers, wich it forbidden by law in germany. Cause there is no other way to activate certrain games. As the license could be labeled a product, the rules used for a product would be in progress, so they would have to make it possible. Otherwise Steam would have to make large payments as long as they don't change Steam.

If you read the steam Eula, it says all sales in the european union take place under UK law. This term was introduced to get round the German courts.

 

[Skeleon]

Very good. I remember the whole thing when they first threatened to sue if Valve didn't do anything. Glad to see they are following through. It's pretty damn faulty advertising when it says "purchase this game" when you basically get an indefinite rental and can't do with your purchase as you please because, well, it's not an actual purchase.

I mean seriously, if you want a hard copy to do with it as you please, don't buy a licence, buy a hard copy from a brick and mortar shop.

You know, I already do that as much as possible, but not only are a lot of games Steam exclusive, even tons of hard copies bought at the store require Steam activation and tying of a particular code to one's account. So, yeah. Fix this, Valve. Your anti-customer policies don't fly here. We actually value consumer protections.

If its not in their terms of service that you can re sell them then how can they sue them? They agreed to the terms of service, if they don't agree with them, then don't agree with them, and use a different platform. I really don't get it ?

If the terms of service that Valve tries to get people to agree to violate the rules, then those ToS and the agreements given are null and void.

 

[R.Nevermore]

If you don't like what steam has to offer....

SUE THEM!

I mean seriously, if you want a hard copy to do with it as you please, don't buy a licence, buy a hard copy from a brick and mortar shop.

EDIT: but even then, you'll have to deal with some even more draconian DRM...

Wait, you are actually unhappy that there are consumer protection organizations that are trying to strengthen the rights of consumers towards companies and strengthen the ownership over products you buy?...

Absolutely not! The more rights I has as a consumer the better... I just think they are fishing in the dark here and have no case. Games these days do not belong to us. We've moved on to a life ding system, and quite frankly I prefer it. Steam has done great things for the game industry. I don't think this group understands the difference here. The game does not belong to us. We merely bought the rights to use them on our accounts.

Like I said. I prefer it this way. I am not really up for game prices being driven further up because some asshat buys the new CoD game and resells it a thousand times for a fraction of the price because its 'within his rights'. Freedoms can be taken too far.

 

[Karma168]

I will laugh so very hard if the end result here is that Valve just stops selling games to German customers.

But seriously? Used digital games still make no !@#$%ing sense. Consumer rights are good and all, but used digital games are still nonsense.

If it was legal to resell a digital game, I could sell the same copy seventy three bajillion times using the magic of Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

Not really, you aren't selling the data, only the key. Take steam keys for example, it's tied to your account and only you can use it. If you could sell/transfer it to someone else the code would no longer be tied to the account and you'd be unable to use it.

 

[Braedan]

Honestly now. I agree that we should be able to sell the games that we own, and buying from retail and having them say we own a license is a steaming pile.
But buying from Steam is ACTUALLY buying a license. You aren't buying a disk and then when you install it you find out that you can't give it away or sell it. You are quite obviously buying a non transferable license.
If you don't agree with this, which is understandable, don't use Steam, go buy it from a store.

 

[Skeleon]

If you don't agree with this, which is understandable, don't use Steam, go buy it from a store.

Do we need to repeat the point about store-bought games requiring Steam?

You aren't buying a disk and then when you install it you find out that you can't give it away or sell it. You are quite obviously buying a non transferable license.

That is exactly what is happening in a lot of cases. The moment you install a game and tie it to your account, you can't resell it even if you have a CD or DVD.
It's also not "quite obviously a non transferable license" since Steam actually advertises in a way that suggests you "purchase this game" rather than "purchase a non-transferable license".

 

[Braedan]

If you don't agree with this, which is understandable, don't use Steam, go buy it from a store.

Do we need to repeat the point about store-bought games requiring Steam?

I get that. I think that practice is pretty shitty, but doesn't it say that it requires Steam to play? Also, this is quite clearly a reason to get mad at the company that makes the game, not the company that distributes the game.

 

[Nimzabaat]

I love this thread!

EA uses DRM to slightly penalize used game sales = EA is the devil and is destroying video games
Valve uses DRM to completely negate used games sales = Rally the troops to Valve's defense!!!

That's just too funny.

 

[Skeleon]

I get that. I think that practice is pretty shitty, but doesn't it say that it requires Steam to play?

Yeah, usually in the fine print or there's like a small icon that says "Steam activation required".
Funnily enough, the biggest problem with store-bought games requiring Steam is Amazon for me. While unobservant customers can easily fall into the trap of buying a product that they didn't realize they need a third-party program and internet connection for in a store (which is in itself reason enough for consumer protections to get involved), I always carefully check boxes. However, a lot of online retailers don't (or didn't, hopefully they fixed it) state on the article's website whether or not a game needs Steam.
Do you know how I found out that Fallout New Vegas needs Steam (even though Fallout 3 didn't)? From the customer reviews on Amazon. Amazon itself never bothered to tell me such a crucial detail. And since it's online, I can't even check the box for any tiny info tidbit that might tell me.
As for whom to get mad at? Valve handles the subscription service. The issue is with them and, yes, the publishers working with them. But I don't see how others also being at fault in any way removes responsibility for fixing their broken service from Valve.

 

[JaredXE]

I don't know anybody that has ever bought a game from Steam full-price. So that "I bought a game full-price so I can do what I want" argument sounds kinda bollocks. Reselling a digital only product is ridiculous.

 

[Arkley]

I'm still not sure which side of the fence I come down on with regards to reselling digital games, but I do know that going for a supreme court ruling for it in a single European country is dumb as balls. Even if the court rules in favour of the consumer group, Valve won't implement the desired system; they'll just make Steam unavailable in Germany. Anyone with a functioning brain can see why it would be in Valve's best interests to cut the cord with Germany rather than allow reselling of digital wares.