Geth/Quarian Morality Choices

[Von Dean]

I understand everyone on the internet seems to be incandescent with rage at the ending to Mass Effect 3 but personally i'm more upset at the suggestion of paragon/renegade that comes with your decision to ally with either the Geth or the Quarians.
I was playing through ME3 on my second playthrough taking all the Renegade options possible when I was faced with the Geth/Quarian allegiance choice and as a renegade I had no other option but to save the Quarians. As far as i'm aware there was no renegade option to renounce the Quarians and doom them all,and i'm sure it would have made for a very fitting renegade choice too.

Maybe i'm missing something here but why is one decision good and one is inherently bad? From what I can tell this is Bioware once again shoe-horning a pre-determined morality on to the player (I believe there was a similar instance in ME2 where you had to choose between destroying the Geth or reprogramming them) Neither of these choices are a clear cut good or bad,but Bioware removes that destinction and simply says "Yep,this choice means you're a good guy and the other means you're evil!"

Sorry for being so long winded but I wanted to get it off my chest/explain myself clearly and I'd like to know what other people make of these situations



[Capthcha - Falling Pianos?.. maybe I won't go out today]

 

[Yassen]

For that case the only "good" choice is being able to prevent the war altogether. I don't really think there's a paragon or renegade choice, it's just whether you did enough right to ensure a chance at peace and gain two fleets for the price of one.

In short, choosing which to wipe out wasn't a paragon or rengade choice, it was the decision you have to make between two undesirable choices if you fucked up any chance at peace.

Edit: And correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you wanted a choice to have them both killed? I wouldn't call that renegade, I'd just call that incredibly stupid. You need another army to fight the Reapers, wiping both out would be completely pointless. Renegade isn't meant to be chaotic evil, it's meant to be "at any cost".

 

[Kahunaburger]

I'm more iffy about the choice itself.

OKAY GUISE HERES TEH MROAL DILEMA. GENOCIDE GROUP A, GENOCIDE GROUP B, OR SOLVE CENTURIES OF BLOODSHED WITH A FEW INSPIRING WORDS. QLATILY BIOWEAR STORYTELING!1!!

 

[Indecipherable]

My understanding is that so long as your reputation as paragon/renegade is high enough you can succeed.

 

[Von Dean]

Oh,did it sound like I wanted to take both sides out?I certainly didn't mean for it to come across like that,I simply meant that the decision to destroy the Geth should not have been definitively bad. I'd have liked it if there was a paragon and a renegade response to whichever side you choose

Edit: I might be wrong but I thought to make peace between both side you had to have uploaded a save from ME2? If that is the case then I was screwed from the start as I lost all my ME1 and ME2 data many xboxes ago..

 

[Goofguy]

The option to make peace between both sides is a calculation of several previous choices you made such as exiling Tali in ME2, defusing the argument between Tali and Legion in ME2, saving the admiral in ME3, re-writing/destroying the Heretics in ME2, deactivating the Geth fighter squadron in ME3 etc.

OKAY GUISE HERES TEH MROAL DILEMA. GENOCIDE GROUP A, GENOCIDE GROUP B, OR SOLVE CENTURIES OF BLOODSHED WITH A FEW INSPIRING WORDS. QLATILY BIOWEAR STORYTELING!1!!

Therefore, I don't see it as a question of just spouting some inspiring words but rather doing so after having aided both sides and proven that the centuries long war between both sides need not continue.

 

[Kahunaburger]

The option to make peace between both sides is a calculation of several previous choices you made such as exiling Tali in ME2, defusing the argument between Tali and Legion in ME2, saving the admiral in ME3, re-writing/destroying the Heretics in ME2, deactivating the Geth fighter squadron in ME3 etc.

OKAY GUISE HERES TEH MROAL DILEMA. GENOCIDE GROUP A, GENOCIDE GROUP B, OR SOLVE CENTURIES OF BLOODSHED WITH A FEW INSPIRING WORDS. QLATILY BIOWEAR STORYTELING!1!!

Therefore, I don't see it as a question of just spouting some inspiring words but rather doing so after having aided both sides and proven that the centuries long war between both sides need not continue.

The point is more that portraying the situation as either resulting in peace (based on the actions of one person, because that's totally how ethnic conflicts are resolved IRL) or complete/near-complete genocide is a little... I don't know. Immature? Contrived? Stupid? All of the above?

I would love to see a good SF game where you play as Space Gandhi, but ME3 is not that game, and Bioware doesn't have the right writers to make that game.

 

[Shock and Awe]

I think its mostly because the Geth have actually been more or less peaceful and may have aided the galaxy in fighting the Reapers if the Quarians hadn't started a war when the galaxy needed to be united.

 

[Kahunaburger]

The option to make peace between both sides is a calculation of several previous choices you made such as exiling Tali in ME2, defusing the argument between Tali and Legion in ME2, saving the admiral in ME3, re-writing/destroying the Heretics in ME2, deactivating the Geth fighter squadron in ME3 etc.

OKAY GUISE HERES TEH MROAL DILEMA. GENOCIDE GROUP A, GENOCIDE GROUP B, OR SOLVE CENTURIES OF BLOODSHED WITH A FEW INSPIRING WORDS. QLATILY BIOWEAR STORYTELING!1!!

Therefore, I don't see it as a question of just spouting some inspiring words but rather doing so after having aided both sides and proven that the centuries long war between both sides need not continue.

The point is more that portraying the situation as either resulting in peace (based on the actions of one person, because that's totally how ethnic conflicts are resolved IRL) or complete/near-complete genocide is a little... I don't know. Immature? Contrived? Stupid? All of the above?

I would love to see a good SF game where you play as Space Gandhi, but ME3 is not that game, and Bioware doesn't have the right writers to make that game.

The only reason the Quarians were attacking is because Han'Garrel is a douchebag. Don't think of it as sweet-talking the entire Quarian race, think of it as putting a verbal boot up the ass of an overexcited moron.

Haha that's even worse. A treatment of an ethnic conflict where the only possible outcomes of it are:

A) Ethnic group A gets completely genocided,
B) Ethnic group B gets almost completely genocided,
C) One douchebag gets a talking-to, problem solved.

Yeah, totally a fictional take on a type of real-world problem that treats it with the care and respect it deserves.

 

[AD-Stu]

I think the mistake you're making is seeing Paragon/Renegade as good/bad - it doesn't necessarily work that way because pretty much everything that Shepard does is "good".

Take the other example you mentioned, reprogramming or killing the geth heretics: both options are presented with good and bad sides to them. Same goes for the geth v quarians in ME3, except in that case there really is a "good" option (saving them both).

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I'm more iffy about the choice itself.

OKAY GUISE HERES TEH MROAL DILEMA. GENOCIDE GROUP A, GENOCIDE GROUP B, OR SOLVE CENTURIES OF BLOODSHED WITH A FEW INSPIRING WORDS. QLATILY BIOWEAR STORYTELING!1!!

The choice would have been so much more difficult if you couldn't talk down both groups. With that option there, it makes the other two seem like a non standard game over. Taking away the super happy resolution would make it one of the toughest decisions in the ME series ever.

Spoiler

But, of course, the Qurians instigated the final choice as they always do. Honestly, they deserve to be wiped out by the Geth at this point.

 

[ZehMadScientist]

Playing Renegade does not mean that you have to pick the bottom option in every conversation. For example, you can upload the Reaper code and use your Renegade speech powers to prevent Han'Gerrel from launching the attack.

 

[Von Dean]

AD-Stu: I agree that my interpretation of Paragon/Renegade = Good/Bad might not be clear cut but I feel Bioware make a distinction between the two ie. the disfiguration of renegade Shepard,the actions taken by renegade Shep which are very often not would people would consider typical good behaviour etc, and I don't feel everything Shepard does is good,certainly the death of either the Geth or the Quarians isin't clearly a 'good' thing but I can see how the result is (saving the galaxy is for the greater good)

 

[Forgetitnow344]

I think my only dislike about that part is that Legion dies no matter what. Legion and Thane are (I think) the only squadmates you can't keep alive at the end of the series. Well, you also have to decide between Mordin and Wrex... Thane is obvious because he was dying anyway, so it was nice for him to go out like a hero...

But Legion was a total bro and they insinuate that he was the very first active Geth platform. Even Tali sticks up for him in the third game. It seemed very out of place for Tali and Legion to have to die when the other side wins, and it was very annoying that if you pick peace or geth, Legion has to "die" to help his people. In a game like that, I personally think there should always be an option to save every character that isn't logically going to have to die (like Thane). Even Mordin has a very convoluted way you can save him and I'm doing a whole new playthrough with that being my sole purpose.

 

[Indecipherable]

Even Mordin has a very convoluted way you can save him and I'm doing a whole new playthrough with that being my sole purpose.

My 2 cents: Mordin doesn't need to be 'saved', he needs redemption. I loved that guy to bits and his death, well, it sucked, but it gave him closure to something that he deeply regretted.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

As far as i'm aware there was no renegade option to renounce the Quarians and doom them all,and i'm sure it would have made for a very fitting renegade choice too.

Wait what? No, that would be stupid. You need at least one side to help you in the war. Not getting either of them would be a clear-cut mission failure.

Renegade doesn't mean evil. That's the only answer you need.

The choice would have been so much more difficult if you couldn't talk down both groups. With that option there, it makes the other two seem like a non standard game over. Taking away the super happy resolution would make it one of the toughest decisions in the ME series ever.

The part with convincing both sides was a reward for having played through Mass Effect 2 and gotten Legion and Tali's missions right. The option to charm/intimidate doesn't even appear if you start a new ME3 game from scratch, or if you screw a few things up during your playthroughs.

Really? I just figured I got it because I had max reputation. If it is really that hard to get, I can see why it is there. Though, if you don't qualify for one of the Paragon/Renegade options, they just just not be there. Having them be visible but faded out shows a player that they aren't getting the best outcome.

 

[Forgetitnow344]

Even Mordin has a very convoluted way you can save him and I'm doing a whole new playthrough with that being my sole purpose.

My 2 cents: Mordin doesn't need to be 'saved', he needs redemption. I loved that guy to bits and his death, well, it sucked, but it gave him closure to something that he deeply regretted.

I call bullshit on that. In the second game, Mordin was very much for the genophage and I was with him on it. In the third game, he suddenly hates it. I can see him getting on board with fixing it for the sake of the mission (because that's logical), but he just does a 180 out of nowhere. He doesn't need redemption.

Was right decision at time. Given time travel, would do it again. But still undo later, now. *sniff* Both necessary.

 

[Spacewolf]

Even Mordin has a very convoluted way you can save him and I'm doing a whole new playthrough with that being my sole purpose.

My 2 cents: Mordin doesn't need to be 'saved', he needs redemption. I loved that guy to bits and his death, well, it sucked, but it gave him closure to something that he deeply regretted.

I call bullshit on that. In the second game, Mordin was very much for the genophage and I was with him on it. In the third game, he suddenly hates it. I can see him getting on board with fixing it for the sake of the mission (because that's logical), but he just does a 180 out of nowhere. He doesn't need redemption.

Was right decision at time. Given time travel, would do it again. But still undo later, now. *sniff* Both necessary.

if you talk to him with paragon choices during his loyalty mission you can see he was pretty upset about it but belived it was the best of the worst