Girls & the gym (U.K)

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

you have women who go to your gyms? =\

ugh it's kind of been a bit of a downer, i've gone to 4-5 different gyms in the past 4-5 years, and all of them have a super ridiculous minority of women, and even then the women that go there are usually (no offense, i do have plenty of fat friends) frickin HUGE (300 pound huge) so it's definitely not attractively fun at all going to the gym..


now back on topic : When i go, i usually go to tone up the body a bit, give myself a nice healthy workout for the day (i feel lethargic if i don't do something physically active each day) and maybe pick up a few muscle lbs, but nothing much (i've gained probably 5 lbs of muscle since july, i'm pretty happy with where i'm at now, but i wouldn't complain if i gained another 5 lbs)

but i will say that 99% of women that i do see at gyms, are always on the aerobics machine or treadmill, and that's it.

 

[Jimbo1212]

So why don't both genders have a positive attitude to the gym and use it as a tool to perfection rather than a tool to fix themselves?
Or is this just something that is in the U.K and not in other countries?

You assume that either one is a healthy attitude.

I think men trying to become "massive" as you put it, is supremely unhealthy. Sculpting muscle like that is often obsessive and kind of gross. Guys - being well developed is fine, but being a huge body builder doesn't do anything for most women.

Either way, the goal is to alter one's body to suit some unrealistic image. Both are unhealthy.

It has been proven that looking better makes you feel better. Yes, it is unhealthy if it becomes obsessive, but that is not what I'm aiming at as I want to know why women give up so easily and have no ambition.

Spoiler: The best reason I've seen for quitting a gym.

Maybe these women just stopped going because they decided they were fine with themselves and moved onto other things.

Also, this:

Either way, the goal is to alter one's body to suit some unrealistic image. Both are unhealthy.

I often wonder about people like Madonna. She has a reputation for being super-fit, exercising for half the day and looking pretty sleek for someone her age and she certainly puts a lot of work in.
But when does she actually get to enjoy being Madonna?

Again, proven that fat is known to not be attractive and if you know that, you are not happy. I really think the media has warped peoples view on what is natural (and proven) and what is liberal bullshit.

I would disagree. I go to the gym to, as you say, "fix" myself. When I hit around 210lbs, I start hitting the gym and jogging until I get down to 180 or so. Then I quit going and a couple of years later am back heading back down to 180.

Ok - why do you not aim to get into shape? Why do you just use it as a weight control method and nothing more?

Female.

I go to the gym to, as you so aptly, put it. "Perfect" myself, that, and I find it entertaining to exercise to some good music. But you're mostly correct I like to believe. Mostly.

The Cor put it pretty right I think. People want to be comfortable with their own self. =)

So why isn't everyone at the gym and why do so many women give up after going from fat to normal, rather than going from fat to "perfect" ? As I mention above, do you think it is insecurity and that the women are not honest with how they look?

Because some women find perfect to be going from overweight to being healthy. If I recall correctly it is highly unhealthy for a lot of women to have the six pack abs and all that. Means they have to malnourish themselves to get to it(there are exceptions of course but general populace though I heard that over 8 years ago so maybe studies have changed). Perfect has a different meaning to everyone. Maybe in their eyes they see themselves as perfect and don't feel the need to do more than that. Maybe they have some issue in their life that causes them not to be able to go any more. There are a million and one reasons for the why(for women and men since it goes both ways). Personally as a female, I don't go to the gym but that's because all the women out here who go to the gym are uberly skinny and complain they are fat and blah blah blah so me being bigger than them(i'm still slim mind you just not like them)it gives me a complex and I lose my desire to work out. I go running with friends and exercise at home instead. More comfortable that way.

Nope, not true and proven sorry. Those women know that they will look bad/average.
It is not unhealthy for women to have a six-pack. It may not be attractive, but it is not unhealthy - just look at athletes.
Also it has been proven that perfect is the same for everyone and everyone knows where they stand in comparison to people. Natures a ***** ain't it.

Personally for the U.K, I think it is denial combined with no confidence and terrible knowledge of fitness with the belief that they can not look good no matter what.

you have women who go to your gyms? =\

ugh it's kind of been a bit of a downer, i've gone to 4-5 different gyms in the past 4-5 years, and all of them have a super ridiculous minority of women, and even then the women that go there are usually (no offense, i do have plenty of fat friends) frickin HUGE (300 pound huge) so it's definitely not attractively fun at all going to the gym..


now back on topic : When i go, i usually go to tone up the body a bit, give myself a nice healthy workout for the day (i feel lethargic if i don't do something physically active each day) and maybe pick up a few muscle lbs, but nothing much (i've gained probably 5 lbs of muscle since july, i'm pretty happy with where i'm at now, but i wouldn't complain if i gained another 5 lbs)

but i will say that 99% of women that i do see at gyms, are always on the aerobics machine or treadmill, and that's it.

Oh, don't get me wrong, all my gyms are about 80% guys but I have given up on seeing any change a loooong time ago. I do think though the reason behind this is partially due to my point and womens (in general) crap attitude towards exercise and the gym.

 

[Blow_Pop]

Female.

I go to the gym to, as you so aptly, put it. "Perfect" myself, that, and I find it entertaining to exercise to some good music. But you're mostly correct I like to believe. Mostly.

The Cor put it pretty right I think. People want to be comfortable with their own self. =)

So why isn't everyone at the gym and why do so many women give up after going from fat to normal, rather than going from fat to "perfect" ? As I mention above, do you think it is insecurity and that the women are not honest with how they look?

Because some women find perfect to be going from overweight to being healthy. If I recall correctly it is highly unhealthy for a lot of women to have the six pack abs and all that. Means they have to malnourish themselves to get to it(there are exceptions of course but general populace though I heard that over 8 years ago so maybe studies have changed). Perfect has a different meaning to everyone. Maybe in their eyes they see themselves as perfect and don't feel the need to do more than that. Maybe they have some issue in their life that causes them not to be able to go any more. There are a million and one reasons for the why(for women and men since it goes both ways). Personally as a female, I don't go to the gym but that's because all the women out here who go to the gym are uberly skinny and complain they are fat and blah blah blah so me being bigger than them(i'm still slim mind you just not like them)it gives me a complex and I lose my desire to work out. I go running with friends and exercise at home instead. More comfortable that way.

Nope, not true and proven sorry. Those women know that they will look bad/average.
It is not unhealthy for women to have a six-pack. It may not be attractive, but it is not unhealthy - just look at athletes.
Also it has been proven that perfect is the same for everyone and everyone knows where they stand in comparison to people. Natures a ***** ain't it.

Personally for the U.K, I think it is denial combined with no confidence and terrible knowledge of fitness with the belief that they can not look good no matter what.

Once again, perfect is not the same for everyone. The ideal that society in general has as far as attractiveness and what perfect is for me is disgusting. I like myself (for the most part there's a few things I'm working on like better control of my asthma when running and coping with a bad knee and ankle on my right leg) and think I am perfect as I am. Yeah I'd love to have my six pack back. It looked great on me. I don't have the time to dedicate to get it back and keep it. I have at the moment 2 days a week off work that I could work on that but my work days(well nights) I can't. I need my sleep since it throws a wrench in my sleeping patterns when I work. Come the end of the month I will have two weeks where I have 1 or 2 days off in that period. That's working every night(on my feet for 8 hours running and walking) and getting home about 3 or 4 in the morning and then having to go back and leave at 4 pm. So, my calves and thighs look amazing at the moment. Upper body not so great but its me and I am happy with it. So, perfect is NOT the same for everyone. Also I couldn't care less where I stand with others physically. I care more for my intellect than my looks. And the US has the same problem luv. People who think that everyone should look to this ideal perfection need to get a new outlook on life. Maybe not everyone agrees. Maybe some of us don't like that standard and have a different viewpoint of perfection. Live and let live. If someone wants to look like that more power to them. If they don't then its that simple. They don't.

 

[Princess Rose]

So why don't both genders have a positive attitude to the gym and use it as a tool to perfection rather than a tool to fix themselves?
Or is this just something that is in the U.K and not in other countries?

You assume that either one is a healthy attitude.

I think men trying to become "massive" as you put it, is supremely unhealthy. Sculpting muscle like that is often obsessive and kind of gross. Guys - being well developed is fine, but being a huge body builder doesn't do anything for most women.

Either way, the goal is to alter one's body to suit some unrealistic image. Both are unhealthy.

It has been proven that looking better makes you feel better. Yes, it is unhealthy if it becomes obsessive, but that is not what I'm aiming at as I want to know why women give up so easily and have no ambition.

Yes, looking better makes you feel better. But here's my point. This is a healthy looking man who's been to the gym:

He is very, very hot. ^^ That right there is a fine goal to have.

This is not:

This is hideous. This does not look good, and it does not look healthy. And this is what I feel like men at the gym want to look like. Men will be at Old Spice Guy level, but they want to get to this level, and that's just wrong. Disgusting and wrong.

And it is exactly the same as a woman exercising for half a day, every day, to be thin. And equally awful.

I'm not anti-being in shape. I own an exercise bike because I'm too cheap to go to the gym, and because I can play video games while I use the exercise bike (so my game time becomes my workout time). But there's a point where you need to stop. Men are just as bad as women about going WAY too far past that point.

 

[Jimbo1212]

Female.

I go to the gym to, as you so aptly, put it. "Perfect" myself, that, and I find it entertaining to exercise to some good music. But you're mostly correct I like to believe. Mostly.

The Cor put it pretty right I think. People want to be comfortable with their own self. =)

So why isn't everyone at the gym and why do so many women give up after going from fat to normal, rather than going from fat to "perfect" ? As I mention above, do you think it is insecurity and that the women are not honest with how they look?

Because some women find perfect to be going from overweight to being healthy. If I recall correctly it is highly unhealthy for a lot of women to have the six pack abs and all that. Means they have to malnourish themselves to get to it(there are exceptions of course but general populace though I heard that over 8 years ago so maybe studies have changed). Perfect has a different meaning to everyone. Maybe in their eyes they see themselves as perfect and don't feel the need to do more than that. Maybe they have some issue in their life that causes them not to be able to go any more. There are a million and one reasons for the why(for women and men since it goes both ways). Personally as a female, I don't go to the gym but that's because all the women out here who go to the gym are uberly skinny and complain they are fat and blah blah blah so me being bigger than them(i'm still slim mind you just not like them)it gives me a complex and I lose my desire to work out. I go running with friends and exercise at home instead. More comfortable that way.

Nope, not true and proven sorry. Those women know that they will look bad/average.
It is not unhealthy for women to have a six-pack. It may not be attractive, but it is not unhealthy - just look at athletes.
Also it has been proven that perfect is the same for everyone and everyone knows where they stand in comparison to people. Natures a ***** ain't it.

Personally for the U.K, I think it is denial combined with no confidence and terrible knowledge of fitness with the belief that they can not look good no matter what.

Once again, perfect is not the same for everyone. The ideal that society in general has as far as attractiveness and what perfect is for me is disgusting. I like myself (for the most part there's a few things I'm working on like better control of my asthma when running and coping with a bad knee and ankle on my right leg) and think I am perfect as I am. Yeah I'd love to have my six pack back. It looked great on me. I don't have the time to dedicate to get it back and keep it. I have at the moment 2 days a week off work that I could work on that but my work days(well nights) I can't. I need my sleep since it throws a wrench in my sleeping patterns when I work. Come the end of the month I will have two weeks where I have 1 or 2 days off in that period. That's working every night(on my feet for 8 hours running and walking) and getting home about 3 or 4 in the morning and then having to go back and leave at 4 pm. So, my calves and thighs look amazing at the moment. Upper body not so great but its me and I am happy with it. So, perfect is NOT the same for everyone. Also I couldn't care less where I stand with others physically. I care more for my intellect than my looks. And the US has the same problem luv. People who think that everyone should look to this ideal perfection need to get a new outlook on life. Maybe not everyone agrees. Maybe some of us don't like that standard and have a different viewpoint of perfection. Live and let live. If someone wants to look like that more power to them. If they don't then its that simple. They don't.

Wrong. Everyone has the same generalisation on what looks good. This has been proven and published. This point can not be debated unless you have researched it. People also know exactly how good or bad they look compared to everyone else however emotional insecurities are what change how honest people are. Again, proven and published - not up for debate.

So why don't both genders have a positive attitude to the gym and use it as a tool to perfection rather than a tool to fix themselves?
Or is this just something that is in the U.K and not in other countries?

You assume that either one is a healthy attitude.

I think men trying to become "massive" as you put it, is supremely unhealthy. Sculpting muscle like that is often obsessive and kind of gross. Guys - being well developed is fine, but being a huge body builder doesn't do anything for most women.

Either way, the goal is to alter one's body to suit some unrealistic image. Both are unhealthy.

It has been proven that looking better makes you feel better. Yes, it is unhealthy if it becomes obsessive, but that is not what I'm aiming at as I want to know why women give up so easily and have no ambition.

Yes, looking better makes you feel better. But here's my point. This is a healthy looking man who's been to the gym:

He is very, very hot. ^^ That right there is a fine goal to have.

This is not:

This is hideous. This does not look good, and it does not look healthy. And this is what I feel like men at the gym want to look like. Men will be at Old Spice Guy level, but they want to get to this level, and that's just wrong. Disgusting and wrong.

And it is exactly the same as a woman exercising for half a day, every day, to be thin. And equally awful.

I'm not anti-being in shape. I own an exercise bike because I'm too cheap to go to the gym, and because I can play video games while I use the exercise bike (so my game time becomes my workout time). But there's a point where you need to stop. Men are just as bad as women about going WAY too far past that point.

Actually many guys at the gym will stop at Old Spice guy simply because of how hard it is to get larger than that. To do so requires huge amount of exercise, controlled diet, and maybe drugs.
However, my point is why do girls not have the same ambition? They don't even want to get to the female equivalent of the 1st guy, they just want to be normal. I find that lack of ambition and level of complacency alarming.

 

[Minjoltr]

I'd argue that attractiveness is subjective, subjective things cannot be proven to be true or false and that becoming attractive is not necessarily the primary goal of those using a gym but at this point, I'm beginning to think you're trolling.

You asked

So why don't both genders have a positive attitude to the gym and use it as a tool to perfection rather than a tool to fix themselves?
Or is this just something that is in the U.K and not in other countries?

and people have given you reasons but rather than accepting that these might be a valid answer, you just seem to be using the thread to attack people's attitudes towards fitness.

 

[Blow_Pop]

Female.

I go to the gym to, as you so aptly, put it. "Perfect" myself, that, and I find it entertaining to exercise to some good music. But you're mostly correct I like to believe. Mostly.

The Cor put it pretty right I think. People want to be comfortable with their own self. =)

So why isn't everyone at the gym and why do so many women give up after going from fat to normal, rather than going from fat to "perfect" ? As I mention above, do you think it is insecurity and that the women are not honest with how they look?

Because some women find perfect to be going from overweight to being healthy. If I recall correctly it is highly unhealthy for a lot of women to have the six pack abs and all that. Means they have to malnourish themselves to get to it(there are exceptions of course but general populace though I heard that over 8 years ago so maybe studies have changed). Perfect has a different meaning to everyone. Maybe in their eyes they see themselves as perfect and don't feel the need to do more than that. Maybe they have some issue in their life that causes them not to be able to go any more. There are a million and one reasons for the why(for women and men since it goes both ways). Personally as a female, I don't go to the gym but that's because all the women out here who go to the gym are uberly skinny and complain they are fat and blah blah blah so me being bigger than them(i'm still slim mind you just not like them)it gives me a complex and I lose my desire to work out. I go running with friends and exercise at home instead. More comfortable that way.

Nope, not true and proven sorry. Those women know that they will look bad/average.
It is not unhealthy for women to have a six-pack. It may not be attractive, but it is not unhealthy - just look at athletes.
Also it has been proven that perfect is the same for everyone and everyone knows where they stand in comparison to people. Natures a ***** ain't it.

Personally for the U.K, I think it is denial combined with no confidence and terrible knowledge of fitness with the belief that they can not look good no matter what.

Once again, perfect is not the same for everyone. The ideal that society in general has as far as attractiveness and what perfect is for me is disgusting. I like myself (for the most part there's a few things I'm working on like better control of my asthma when running and coping with a bad knee and ankle on my right leg) and think I am perfect as I am. Yeah I'd love to have my six pack back. It looked great on me. I don't have the time to dedicate to get it back and keep it. I have at the moment 2 days a week off work that I could work on that but my work days(well nights) I can't. I need my sleep since it throws a wrench in my sleeping patterns when I work. Come the end of the month I will have two weeks where I have 1 or 2 days off in that period. That's working every night(on my feet for 8 hours running and walking) and getting home about 3 or 4 in the morning and then having to go back and leave at 4 pm. So, my calves and thighs look amazing at the moment. Upper body not so great but its me and I am happy with it. So, perfect is NOT the same for everyone. Also I couldn't care less where I stand with others physically. I care more for my intellect than my looks. And the US has the same problem luv. People who think that everyone should look to this ideal perfection need to get a new outlook on life. Maybe not everyone agrees. Maybe some of us don't like that standard and have a different viewpoint of perfection. Live and let live. If someone wants to look like that more power to them. If they don't then its that simple. They don't.

Wrong. Everyone has the same generalisation on what looks good. This has been proven and published. This point can not be debated unless you have researched it. People also know exactly how good or bad they look compared to everyone else however emotional insecurities are what change how honest people are. Again, proven and published - not up for debate.

No they don't. Prove to me with a study that has surveyed EVERYONE on the planet that proves this and I'll believe you. Not just a select group of people representing everyone else. This goes for research as well. Matters of opinion. Especially since I KNOW that study/research has not been done with the entire planet. It may have been done with a percentage of the population but that percentage does NOT represent everyone.

 

[2xDouble]

*snip*

Are you seriously arguing with women who are flat-out telling you what they (and other women they know) personally like, simply because you are more attracted to muscular women than merely "fit" ones?

 

[Jimbo1212]

I'd argue that attractiveness is subjective, subjective things cannot be proven to be true or false and that becoming attractive is not necessarily the primary goal of those using a gym but at this point, I'm beginning to think you're trolling.

You asked

So why don't both genders have a positive attitude to the gym and use it as a tool to perfection rather than a tool to fix themselves?
Or is this just something that is in the U.K and not in other countries?

and people have given you reasons but rather than accepting that these might be a valid answer, you just seem to be using the thread to attack people's attitudes towards fitness.

I'm rejecting your idea because it has been proven to be wrong in a number of papers. Unless you have papers to your name in this field, you can not debate the point, merely argue with fact which is absurd.

Wrong. Everyone has the same generalisation on what looks good. This has been proven and published. This point can not be debated unless you have researched it. People also know exactly how good or bad they look compared to everyone else however emotional insecurities are what change how honest people are. Again, proven and published - not up for debate.

No they don't. Prove to me with a study that has surveyed EVERYONE on the planet that proves this and I'll believe you. Not just a select group of people representing everyone else. This goes for research as well. Matters of opinion. Especially since I KNOW that study/research has not been done with the entire planet. It may have been done with a percentage of the population but that percentage does NOT represent everyone.

Do you need to drop an apple in ever location on Earth to know gravity exists? No.
So again, unless you have a PhD to your name, you can't argue with published papers because many people more qualified and informed than you will ever be think that those findings were substantial enough to make a scientific impact (not an opinion as you said).
This is why I made this thread, to find out why many women go against natural instincts.

*snip*

Are you seriously arguing with women who are flat-out telling you what they (and other women they know) personally like, simply because you are more attracted to muscular women than merely "fit" ones?

Erm, what? At what point did I say I prefer muscular women? I just want to know why women quit the gym after going from fat to mildly tubby and don't ever become normal eg flat stomach.

 

[Kurai Angelo]

I thought it was more common practice to just buy a membership and then never actually go

 

[TheBaron87]

OP, I'm guessing you go to "perfect" yourself, and you have a female friend who goes to "fix" yourself. How many people at your gym do you actually talk to? You're skewing the statistics based on your experience.

 

[Princess Rose]

However, my point is why do girls not have the same ambition? They don't even want to get to the female equivalent of the 1st guy, they just want to be normal. I find that lack of ambition and level of complacency alarming.

...? What are you talking about?

Oh. Wait. I get it now.

So, you think that what women go to the gym for is normal? Ha... ha, no.

What you're considering "normal" is actually as difficult to get and maintain as Old Spice Guy.

Most women want to get to, say... Summer Glau level.

Summer Glau is a professional ballerina (or she was before she turned actress). That is INSANELY in shape. That is a more difficult goal than Old Spice Guy. It is nearly impossible to get.

If you think that we're going for normal, then you have an awful (if Hollywood inspired) image of what "normal" for a woman is.

 

[Blow_Pop]

I'd argue that attractiveness is subjective, subjective things cannot be proven to be true or false and that becoming attractive is not necessarily the primary goal of those using a gym but at this point, I'm beginning to think you're trolling.

You asked

So why don't both genders have a positive attitude to the gym and use it as a tool to perfection rather than a tool to fix themselves?
Or is this just something that is in the U.K and not in other countries?

and people have given you reasons but rather than accepting that these might be a valid answer, you just seem to be using the thread to attack people's attitudes towards fitness.

I'm rejecting your idea because it has been proven to be wrong in a number of papers. Unless you have papers to your name in this field, you can not debate the point, merely argue with fact which is absurd.

Fine. Cite your damn sources then.

Wrong. Everyone has the same generalisation on what looks good. This has been proven and published. This point can not be debated unless you have researched it. People also know exactly how good or bad they look compared to everyone else however emotional insecurities are what change how honest people are. Again, proven and published - not up for debate.

No they don't. Prove to me with a study that has surveyed EVERYONE on the planet that proves this and I'll believe you. Not just a select group of people representing everyone else. This goes for research as well. Matters of opinion. Especially since I KNOW that study/research has not been done with the entire planet. It may have been done with a percentage of the population but that percentage does NOT represent everyone.

Do you need to drop an apple in ever location on Earth to know gravity exists? No.
So again, unless you have a PhD to your name, you can't argue with published papers because many people more qualified and informed than you will ever be think that those findings were substantial enough to make a scientific impact (not an opinion as you said).
This is why I made this thread, to find out why many women go against natural instincts.

So those of us who instinctively do not wish to look as you think we instinctively SHOULD look are then going against nature? hmm. And with or without a PhD yes, you can argue against published papers. They CAN be proven wrong. Cite your sources that prove that EVERYONE has the same ideal of perfection. This is merely a debate between what YOU think the standard of beauty and attractiveness SHOULD be against what it actually is to others. Anyone who disagrees you argue with because of your "unless you have a PhD or a published paper you're opinion doesn't matter" state of mind. And YES THAT is EXACTLY how you come across.

 

[Jimbo1212]

However, my point is why do girls not have the same ambition? They don't even want to get to the female equivalent of the 1st guy, they just want to be normal. I find that lack of ambition and level of complacency alarming.

...? What are you talking about?

Oh. Wait. I get it now.

So, you think that what women go to the gym for is normal? Ha... ha, no.

What you're considering "normal" is actually as difficult to get and maintain as Old Spice Guy.

Most women want to get to, say... Summer Glau level.

Summer Glau is a professional ballerina (or she was before she turned actress). That is INSANELY in shape. That is a more difficult goal than Old Spice Guy. It is nearly impossible to get.

If you think that we're going for normal, then you have an awful (if Hollywood inspired) image of what "normal" for a woman is.

Urgh, please be more careful in reading what I post.

The vast majority (95%) of girls I see DO NOT TRY to get to "Summer Glau level". They get to tubby Britney Spears (from being fat) and stop and quit the gym.
As for women being what should be normal aka flat stomach, no wobbly bits and mild toning, that is easy and should be thought as normal because all it takes is a healthy diet and regular exercise. That's it. Not a high protein, low carb etc hyper controlled diet with rigorous exercise routines which you need to get to being well built for a guy, just common sense. The difference with S.G is that she will be flexible as hell with very strong legs - that's the only difference between normal and her (and yes, I know as my friends sister is a professional Ballerina).
Insanely in shape is someone like Jamie Eason as she has the controlled diet etc.

I think you have shown that many people seem to be ill informed on how they cna look at what it takes. If your opinion is common amongst women then it explains a lot as women would give up as they think the next stage is too hard when it really is not.

 

[Rawne1980]

I go to the gym to keep myself in shape. I don't aim for the "perfect" body i'm happy with the build I have.

I do, however, want to keep that build and not become a blubbery mass of flesh so I go to the gym and I train .... a lot.

And I train at home ... oh joyful multigym.

MY wife goes to keep fit. She has nothing to "fix" and neither do the other women at the gym I go to.

They like to stay in shape that is all.

 

[2xDouble]

*snip*

Are you seriously arguing with women who are flat-out telling you what they (and other women they know) personally like, simply because you are more attracted to muscular women than merely "fit" ones?

Erm, what? At what point did I say I prefer muscular women? I just want to know why women quit the gym after going from fat to mildly tubby and don't ever become normal eg flat stomach.

Right here:

Actually many guys at the gym will stop at Old Spice guy simply because of how hard it is to get larger than that. To do so requires huge amount of exercise, controlled diet, and maybe drugs.
However, my point is why do girls not have the same ambition? They don't even want to get to the female equivalent of the 1st guy, they just want to be normal. I find that lack of ambition and level of complacency alarming.

Perhaps "muscular" is giving the wrong impression, implying the professional bodybuilder rather than the professional model. I'll use "defined" instead. You said you want them to aspire to look like the "female equivalent" to Old Spice Guy, directly implying defined musculature. Your insistent tone and almost aggressive wording show a desire for that to be the ideal, ergo, a preference of yours. Therefore, you prefer defined women, and you want women to want (and therefore have) more muscular definition.

There's nothing wrong with that, but I think you should sit down and study a few extra anatomy lessons. I don't think you quite understand the amount of extra effort it would take for females to look like that, and how overinflated your definition of "normal" seems to be.

 

[Blow_Pop]

I'd argue that attractiveness is subjective, subjective things cannot be proven to be true or false and that becoming attractive is not necessarily the primary goal of those using a gym but at this point, I'm beginning to think you're trolling.

You asked

So why don't both genders have a positive attitude to the gym and use it as a tool to perfection rather than a tool to fix themselves?
Or is this just something that is in the U.K and not in other countries?

and people have given you reasons but rather than accepting that these might be a valid answer, you just seem to be using the thread to attack people's attitudes towards fitness.

I'm rejecting your idea because it has been proven to be wrong in a number of papers. Unless you have papers to your name in this field, you can not debate the point, merely argue with fact which is absurd.

Fine. Cite your damn sources then.

Wrong. Everyone has the same generalisation on what looks good. This has been proven and published. This point can not be debated unless you have researched it. People also know exactly how good or bad they look compared to everyone else however emotional insecurities are what change how honest people are. Again, proven and published - not up for debate.

No they don't. Prove to me with a study that has surveyed EVERYONE on the planet that proves this and I'll believe you. Not just a select group of people representing everyone else. This goes for research as well. Matters of opinion. Especially since I KNOW that study/research has not been done with the entire planet. It may have been done with a percentage of the population but that percentage does NOT represent everyone.

Do you need to drop an apple in ever location on Earth to know gravity exists? No.
So again, unless you have a PhD to your name, you can't argue with published papers because many people more qualified and informed than you will ever be think that those findings were substantial enough to make a scientific impact (not an opinion as you said).
This is why I made this thread, to find out why many women go against natural instincts.

So those of us who instinctively do not wish to look as you think we instinctively SHOULD look are then going against nature? hmm. And with or without a PhD yes, you can argue against published papers. They CAN be proven wrong. Cite your sources that prove that EVERYONE has the same ideal of perfection. This is merely a debate between what YOU think the standard of beauty and attractiveness SHOULD be against what it actually is to others. Anyone who disagrees you argue with because of your "unless you have a PhD or a published paper you're opinion doesn't matter" state of mind. And YES THAT is EXACTLY how you come across.

Just browse google scholar, that's how I found the sources and seeing that it's late, I will do them tomorrow if you are unable to do so.

As for not wanting to look how you should, that is all down to mental health and where you place yourself in the natural chain of attractiveness(which yes, has been proven to exist).
And no, to argue against a paper without a PhD makes you ignorant/arrogant/absurd/prodigy, and somehow I doubt you are the latter. If you truly think that you can argue against world leading experts when you know so little shows that no matter what proof I show, it would be meaningless as your mindset means you would reject fact in favour of fiction. Sadly, that sort of attitude is what kept the world in the Dark Ages and as my first line in the OP says, please refrain from posting that.

Yes, because EVERYTHING you read on the internet is true and has NEVER been found to be fabricated. And you have no clue how much or how little I know. Don't you dare try and guess at my intelligence without knowing anything about me. Basically however, what you've said is that anyone who disagrees with YOUR opinion of attractiveness and a few "professionals" who do research on a select group of people that supposedly represents the entire world but in reality doesn't is wrong and should change their viewpoints so that we all have the same opinions. I reject people's opinions published that people take as facts based on a small group of people who are probably superficial as hell anyway or highly insecure about themselves to be the opinion of the entire populace of the world as far as beauty/attractiveness goes. There is NO set standard of it. And anyone who thinks there is is being absurd especially when they discredit anyone who has a differing opinion merely because they don't have a PhD to their name or a published paper, which by the way how would you know unless they told you and what if they didn't want to tell you they did?

 

[NeuroticDogDad]

So why don't both genders have a positive attitude to the gym and use it as a tool to perfection rather than a tool to fix themselves?

I'm curious to know what you're after. Obviously the answer to this question but then you just went ahead and gave us the answers as seen below.

[Women] don't want to look their best, they just don't want to look terrible, where as the guys want to look their best.

Personally for the U.K, I think it is denial combined with no confidence and terrible knowledge of fitness with the belief that [women] can not look good no matter what.

many fail to do this and simply give up when they are no longer humongous. I would put this down to the UK's mentality with women and exercise as it goes against natural instinct along with people being insecure and not admitting that they could do better/give up early on... As I mention above, do you think it is insecurity and that the women are not honest with how they look?

So you're looking for other peoples opinions? Mostly they seem to have a problem with the original premise and that your argument is based on, what you declared yourself to be, your own experience and a generalisation. This precludes other peoples experiences wavering you from your point as demonstrated:

Where is your gym situated? I have never seen a girl who wants massive muscle nor a guy who wants to shape down. Just girls who want to not be fat and guys who want to be able to punch through walls.

And yet you even carry on when 31 posts into a 58 post thread you realise (perhaps sarcastically) that your experience isn't the standard for the entire country:

Maybe I just have bad luck and end up at the gym advertised by fat fighters or something.

So what are you after? A high-minded discussion among forward-thinking lay people about the ideal aesthetics of the human form?

Unless you have papers to your name in this field, you can not debate the point, merely argue with fact which is absurd.

And no, to argue against a paper without a PhD makes you ignorant/arrogant/absurd/prodigy, and somehow I doubt you are the latter. If you truly think that you can argue against world leading experts when you know so little shows that no matter what proof I show, it would be meaningless as your mindset means you would reject fact in favour of fiction

Ah. I assume you weren't really expecting academics, let alone physiotherapy/anatomy academics, on the off-topic forum of the escapist so any discussion of the literature is also out of the question, as is unqualified discussion of the points at hand. (As a side-note, you can understand a field of study and discuss it and have a worthy opinion about it without being published.)

Also I believe that second post acts against Rule 1:

Only constructive or thought provoking ideas

As does your unfortunately revealing post about how you see the world

I really think the media has warped peoples view on what is natural (and proven) and what is liberal bullshit.

As do most of the rest of your posts. Your concept of constructive input and thought-provoking ideas, let alone threads, seems to be somewhat unusual.


In conclusion, I look forward to posting my ideas about the subject when I know what it is you want to me to say.

 

[Princess Rose]

The vast majority (95%) of girls I see DO NOT TRY to get to "Summer Glau level". They get to tubby Britney Spears (from being fat) and stop and quit the gym.

Your numbers are bizarre then. Apparently you live...

**notes thread title**

Ah. UK.

I can only speak for Americans. Specifically New Yorkers. The women I know who go to the gym are trying to be Super Models - and the ones who work at it 3-5 hours a day come close.

They try hard NOT to build ANY muscle, but only burn fat, because they don't want muscle (apparently guys think muscle on girls is ugly? I've never thought so - think mildly toned women are very attractive). But they still work hard on burning calories and staying as thin as possible.

Perhaps it is different in the UK. I wouldn't know. Somehow I doubt all UK women are happy being fat.

I assume your sample size is the Gym you go to? Are you in a major city, or a smaller town? That can have a huge impact on how people treat body image.

Your generalizations that 95% of women do this is NOT AT ALL my experience. Hence why, even when I read you post, it made no sense because what you were saying sounded entirely unlike what I've experienced.

Perhaps this is an issue with your gym? No idea why it would happen like that... I'm just saying, I have not seen the data you speak of.

 

[Princess Rose]

In conclusion, I look forward to posting my ideas about the subject when I know what it is you want to me to say.

Oh good, I'm glad I'm not the only one having a difficult conversation with the OP. This whole thread is starting to get a bit frustrating.