Give me more games with morally ambiguous characters/factions
- Thread starter Brawndo
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Did I play the same Valkyria Chronicles? I felt it did a good job of making you empathize with the Empire leaders and soldiers alike, and it had a good mix of characters on the Gallian side, including some very unlikable people.
I second this. The high level of moral ambiguity is one of the best things about the Witcher. The factions don't fall into "good" or "evil" cleanly at all.Merkavar said:
Absolutely not. Caesar's legion are obviously bad, and NCR are obviously good. Mr. House can't really be considered morally ambiguous because his intentions or goals are never really laid out in full view in front of you, you only get little hints.DuctTapeJedi said:
Still love the game.
ultrachicken said:
Mostly I was just thinking about how they said that all of Caesar's territory was well organized and protected from raiders.
Also, the NCR had the whole Bitter Springs kerfuffle, although that was more due to bureaucracy.
But I really just didn't like that one officer towards the end who gave you your quests, the lady who told you to go kill all of the seemingly neutral factions.
Also, the NCR had the whole Bitter Springs kerfuffle, although that was more due to bureaucracy.
But I really just didn't like that one officer towards the end who gave you your quests, the lady who told you to go kill all of the seemingly neutral factions.
There's a saying about how everyone is the hero of their own story. Even Nazis can be interesting and sympathetic when you understand how they view the world deep down in their rabbit hole. The Evil Emperor is just trying to do what's right for the world; why does everyone keep betraying him? You can tap into the deep sense of frustration and outrage that, despite all their good intentions and hard work, people can't or won't be made to do what's best for them.
But, unfortunately, all to often the only bows to moral ambiguity are giving the villain a tragic childhood and the hero an old shame. Much angsting ensues, which is meant to substitute for actual moral thoughtfulness.
But, unfortunately, all to often the only bows to moral ambiguity are giving the villain a tragic childhood and the hero an old shame. Much angsting ensues, which is meant to substitute for actual moral thoughtfulness.
Deus Ex.
You start thinking you are part of a noble anti-terrorist organisation which saves lives and punishes the wicked, but then you find out your organisation is cover for a massive international conspiracy and your enemies, which have done some horrible things only did so to ultimately try to help people, then you swap sides and fight against the real conspirators but if you look hard enough (emails, conversations etc) you find they are often everyday people just thinking their way of thinking is right.
Yeah, its kinda cliche, but its one of the best games ever made (and it was made 10 freaking years ago!) so who cares.
Its really damn hard for me to think of decent characters/factions in games overall, much less morally ambiguous ones, so aside from Deus Ex I dont think anything else is worthy of mention in that respect.
You start thinking you are part of a noble anti-terrorist organisation which saves lives and punishes the wicked, but then you find out your organisation is cover for a massive international conspiracy and your enemies, which have done some horrible things only did so to ultimately try to help people, then you swap sides and fight against the real conspirators but if you look hard enough (emails, conversations etc) you find they are often everyday people just thinking their way of thinking is right.
Yeah, its kinda cliche, but its one of the best games ever made (and it was made 10 freaking years ago!) so who cares.
Its really damn hard for me to think of decent characters/factions in games overall, much less morally ambiguous ones, so aside from Deus Ex I dont think anything else is worthy of mention in that respect.
The factions you were ordered to go check out weren't really neutral. The Khans were a bunch of raiders, plain and simple, and you weren't explicitly ordered to kill them anyways. The boomers you were supposed to befriend.DuctTapeJedi said:
I didn't like her either.
I'm really surprised no one else has mentioned this: BioShock
That game made me start my own thread discussing the nature of it's inhabitants, wether they are good or evil and in this case, pretty much morally ambiguous.
Yeah, you kill splicers, but they are neither good nor evil, even your own character can't be determined in a single position of black or white. Maybe except for the ending itself wich can be described as good or evil, but before that point, pretty much every single action you do isn't determined if is good or evil. But yeah, talking about characters and factions, Fontaine and Ryan had their reasons and neither of them were right. Even the Big Daddies themselves can't be described as good or evil.
I can't wait for Infinite to be released and make even more morally ambiguous decisions =D
That game made me start my own thread discussing the nature of it's inhabitants, wether they are good or evil and in this case, pretty much morally ambiguous.
Yeah, you kill splicers, but they are neither good nor evil, even your own character can't be determined in a single position of black or white. Maybe except for the ending itself wich can be described as good or evil, but before that point, pretty much every single action you do isn't determined if is good or evil. But yeah, talking about characters and factions, Fontaine and Ryan had their reasons and neither of them were right. Even the Big Daddies themselves can't be described as good or evil.
I can't wait for Infinite to be released and make even more morally ambiguous decisions =D
Surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but Dragon Age: Origins. The principle villain of the game (not the darkspawn, but Loghain), is very morally ambiguous. Most of the major characters are morally ambiguous, and all the choices you can make are various shades of gray. It is not very often that everything is as it seems initially in that game.
May I recommend Tie Fighter? Sure you fight for the Empire, but the game does a masterful job illustrating how the Imperials view themselves as the moral superiors. The way Tie Fighter presents it, the Rebellion is attempting to spread chaos throughout the galaxy, and you must help restore peace and order by destroying these agents of anarchy. Also, you learn that the Empire is not as unified as it appears to be, with certain ambitious leaders defecting or attempting audacious coups. It presents the Star Wars universe in a whole new light, and it's surprisingly compelling. It didn't take long at all before I found yourself muttering "Rebel scum" after destroying yet another X-Wing.
There's also Reliable Excavation Demolition and Builder's League United from Team Fortress 2. Both factions hire groups of bloodthirsty, mentally unstable mercenaries to settle various ownership and territorial claims. It's even hinted that they're actually pawns the Announcer uses to further her inscrutable plans. Not really any heroes there.
...All right, nobody plays TF2 for the story. My opinion on Tie Fighter still stands however.
There's also Reliable Excavation Demolition and Builder's League United from Team Fortress 2. Both factions hire groups of bloodthirsty, mentally unstable mercenaries to settle various ownership and territorial claims. It's even hinted that they're actually pawns the Announcer uses to further her inscrutable plans. Not really any heroes there.
...All right, nobody plays TF2 for the story. My opinion on Tie Fighter still stands however.
Because NEITHER of those are morally ambiguous.Nom NomZ said:
In dragon age there's a fucking monster horde that's going to kill every man woman and child that exists and despite whatever dick hole choices the player makes it's all to that end
and in Mass Effect they fucking grade you. You make a choice BOOM 12 paragon points. Well I guess we just found out what the good thing to do is didn't we. It stops beiomcing a matter of what's right and wrong and becomes what will give me the good vs bad points so I can get this and that item.
To put it bluntly the moment you understand a goal or reward system well enough to base your opinion on what will give you this and that point or item it stops becoming an issue of morality and becomes and issue of trying to beat the computer.
Also as soon as you understand a motive enough it stops become ambiguous. Moral Ambiguioty would imply that you DON'T know whats right and wrong.
Sure its up to the player to decide if he wants to kill all the children or save them in Bioshock but I hope to whatever god, deity or concept you believe in you know damn well that killing kids is not only fucking wrong but morally reprehensible.
Baldur's Gate II (Any of them really, but in II you can sort of see where the villain is coming from)
In these you can basically be evil all you want, and only kill the main villain because you feel like it.
In these you can basically be evil all you want, and only kill the main villain because you feel like it.
Going to have to second the Witcher for this one. I was at a crossroads in the game at one point and had to end up telling everyone to just leave me alone because my choice of faction was the demi-humans rebelling against their unfair treatment (by killing innocents) or support the order of knights who were trying to maintain order in the land (butchering anyone who went agaisnt them) Both sides had redeemable qualities but they both had their share of assholes too. To me it was wrong that the demi-humans were repressed and exiled to slums, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Damn that game sometimes.
Damn that game sometimes.
ninja'dPseudopod said:
i to too felt it did very well at characterizing everyone involved, plus how many games can claim to give the backgrounds, motivations, likes and dislikes of the various soldiers, villains, supporting and main characters, and it actually has an effect in game?
plus there was that scene where you're holed up inside a cabin tending to an enemy soldier thats dying and he's calling out for his mum, and the enemy patrol that comes by the next day lets the main characters go because they gave the guy a decent burial, and there was how rosies opinion's of darcsens changed over the course of the story
also there was the reveal where the valkyria (the alleged historical good guys) were actually the ones that caused so much bloodshed in the past, invading the entire continent, subjugaded the darcsens tribes and then blamed them for the all the death and destruction while making themselves out be saints.
also there was the reveal where the valkyria (the alleged historical good guys) were actually the ones that caused so much bloodshed in the past, invading the entire continent, subjugaded the darcsens tribes and then blamed them for the all the death and destruction while making themselves out be saints.
me thinks the OP only played the first 3-4 levels, if at all and is not making sweeping generalisations
anyhoo on topic: if done right, morally ambiguous characters might be more interesting, the problem is like everything its hardly ever done right, as everyone seems to equate morally ambiguous with 'grizzled unlikable sociopaths who swear a lot while killing a lot but have a daughter as a morality pet'. case in point the kane and lynch series
Really? Huh, the last time I played Modern Warfare 2, I don't remember the villain being particularly anti-American.Brawndo said:
OT: Well, yeah, Alpha Protocol has a fair share of that, if you can figure out the plot, that is.