Gone too soon or overstayed its welcome?

[Zetatrain]

Dukat was an amazing character. By turns heartless beast, and by others, a loving family man. I guess what they were trying to do with the war thing was to put a face on it. You can't mention WW2 for example without mentioning Hitler. He was the face of the Axis Of Evil, he was the focal point. Looking at most wars, there is always a hate-figure that we know about. However, the whole good/evil timeless prophets thing was a little odd... Technically, since time doesn't exist for them, they are both at peace and in constant war with the pa'wraiths forever.

I wouldn't have minded that so much, but by that point, Dukat was no longer part of the Cardassian-Dominion alliance, so having him as the 'face of the enemy' doesn't make sense as much as, say, the female changeling. He's more like if Hitler was overthrown and went to the Orient to learn Firebending; it was just silly. It's especially aggravating considering it comes after his best episode, 'Waltz' which is such a great character piece for him.

I disagree with the notion that Dukat was portrayed as the main bad guy or the "face" of the Domainion-Cardassian alliance in the final season. Dukat and the Pai wraiths are the main focus in like only 4 episodes in the last season. After the episode "Waltz" he pretty much stops being the primary antagonist as well as the "face" of the Dominion-Cardassian alliance and this is reflected by how little he appears in the final season. At this point he stops being a threat to the Federation and is only a personal threat to Sisko.

Personally, I never really had a problem with Dukat allying himself with Pai wraiths. The end of Waltz pretty much made it clear that the death of his daughter left him unhinged and that he blames the Bajorans and Sisko for the death of her. Joining with the Pai-wraith was a way for him to get revenge as well as settle his long standing rivalry with Sisko. So given that he is mentally deranged and has motivation, him joining the Pai-wraiths isn't so far fetched. While I do believe Dukat's character in season 7 wasn't as good as it was in previous seasons and that he could have been handled better, IMO season 7 didn't ruin his character.

The final season might have focused on the Prophet vs Pai-wraith conflict a bit more than the previous seasons, but I never felt that they became the main focus of the the final season. The main focus was still the Dominion war and Dukat and the Pai-wraiths were more of an over arching sub-plot tied to Sisko.

He's more like if Hitler was overthrown and went to the Orient to learn Firebending; it was just silly.

LOL, considering Hitler's interest in occultism that description seems rather appropriate.

EDIT: As for the OP

Gone to soon

Firefly (duh)
Star Trek: Enterprise (while much of the series is bad IMO season 4 is where they had finally found their footing but it was too little too late)

Overstayed Its Welcome

Star Trek: The Next Generation

While I didn't think the last season was bad it was clear that by this point they had run out of ideas and were retreading old plots and themes. At least they were able to end the season and series on a high note.

 

[ThreeName]

Overstayed is much worse.

I can't deal with shows that drag on past their use by date. While I understand the thirst for more (God I love The Hollowmen) it's better to see them die with dignity than go coughing and spluttering.

 

[King of Asgaard]

Dukat was an amazing character. By turns heartless beast, and by others, a loving family man. I guess what they were trying to do with the war thing was to put a face on it. You can't mention WW2 for example without mentioning Hitler. He was the face of the Axis Of Evil, he was the focal point. Looking at most wars, there is always a hate-figure that we know about. However, the whole good/evil timeless prophets thing was a little odd... Technically, since time doesn't exist for them, they are both at peace and in constant war with the pa'wraiths forever.

I wouldn't have minded that so much, but by that point, Dukat was no longer part of the Cardassian-Dominion alliance, so having him as the 'face of the enemy' doesn't make sense as much as, say, the female changeling. He's more like if Hitler was overthrown and went to the Orient to learn Firebending; it was just silly. It's especially aggravating considering it comes after his best episode, 'Waltz' which is such a great character piece for him.

I disagree with the notion that Dukat was portrayed as the main bad guy or the "face" of the Domainion-Cardassian alliance in the final season. Dukat and the Pai wraiths are the main focus in like only 4 episodes in the last season. After the episode "Waltz" he pretty much stops being the primary antagonist as well as the "face" of the Dominion-Cardassian alliance and this is reflected by the how little he appears in the final season. At this point he stops being a threat to the Federation and is only a personal threat to Sisko.

Personally, I never really had a problem with Dukat allying himself with Pai wraiths. The end of Waltz pretty much made it clear that the death of his daughter left him unhinged and that he blames the Bajorans and Sisko for the death of her. Joining with the Pai-wraith was a way for him to get revenge as well as settle his long standing rivalry with Sisko. So given that he is mentally deranged and has motivation, him joining the Pai-wraiths isn't so far fetched. While I do believe Dukat's character in season 7 wasn't as good as it was in previous seasons and that he could have been handled better, IMO season 7 didn't ruin his character.

The final season might have focused on the Prophet vs Pai-wraith conflict a bit more than the previous seasons, but I never felt that they became the main focus of the the final season. The main focus was still the Dominion war and Dukat and the Pai-wraiths were more of an over arching sub-plot tied to Sisko.

He's more like if Hitler was overthrown and went to the Orient to learn Firebending; it was just silly.

LOL, considering Hitler's interest in occultism that description seems rather appropriate.

While Dukat and the Pagh Wraiths may have had focus only towards the end, most episodes in the final season had parts of that subplot interspersed throughout. It's not like it was introduced 5 minutes before the deadline and tossed in for shits and giggles; it had been building up for a long time. And I agree, after 'Waltz' he was done as a character, but someone didn't get the memo and insisted he be brought back because he's the most recognisable antagonist in DS9. I'm of the opinion that Dukat should have dropped off the face of the universe after Waltz, because it was a great character examination, and it tied up his loose ends. To bring him him back as a stereotypical villain is just a disservice.

 

[Remus]

Gone too soon is a worse fate because many great shows are often the victim of circumstance. Heroes for instance was a great show at the start but lost a lot of viewers during the writers strike. This led to an ending that was more of a "To Be Continued" than a true end. Similarly, Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles ended the series with a cliffhanger in which John was transported into the post-apocalyptic future he was trying to prevent. But the cancellation of TSCC gave us a bitter, incestuous Cersei so I guess it wasn't a complete loss. Then there was a stretch of interesting sci-fi shows on NBC post-Heroes that never truly got a chance to shine. Among them, Surface, a show about a danger in the ocean in the form of a group of giant electric lizards, something to fill the hole left by the not-great American Godzilla flick. But it wasn't meant to be. On Showtime, Dead Like Me was gone too soon. There was an attempt to give the show a proper sendoff with a movie but missing a couple key actors, it wasn't really the same.

 

[00slash00]

I would much rather see a show go too soon than over stay its welcome. I loved Lost but the final season sucked. Then again, part of that seemed like they were rushing to wrap things up as fast as possible so maybe that actually could have done with a little more time.

I really liked Weeds but it should have only been two seasons long. By season 3 it really just felt like a completely different show, and not in a good way.

If a show goes too soon, at last I can remember it fondly. My memory of Lost is still very fond and it is still one of my favorite series, but my feelings about the show are definitely tarnished by that final season

 

[Zetatrain]

While Dukat and the Pagh Wraiths may have had focus only towards the end, most episodes in the final season had parts of that subplot interspersed throughout. It's not like it was introduced 5 minutes before the deadline and tossed in for shits and giggles; it had been building up for a long time.

Oh I know, I just only brought up season 7 because that was where you said the series (particularly Dukat) started to go sour for you.

And I agree, after 'Waltz' he was done as a character

I never said that and in fact the whole personal conflict between Sisko and Dukat would have felt unresolved to me if Dukat completely disappeared after "Waltz". To me the end of "Waltz" marks the beginning of the end for Dukat as well as the conflict between him and Sisko. In other words I felt there was still more to come. Dukat has been Sisko's rival/nemesis since the beginning so I see it only appropriate that he be there till the end.

What I originally meant was that I found Dukat's return after "Waltz" necessary and that it could have been handled better. Dukat might not have been as good as he was in previous seasons, but the season 7's flaws didn't ruin his character for me.

but someone didn't get the memo and insisted he be brought back because he's the most recognisable antagonist in DS9

Personally I feel that Dukat fits rather well into that whole Pai wraith plot. Its a way for him to not only get back at Sisko but to also prove his superiority to Sisko (something he has been trying throughout the series). Even if the Pai wraith plot wasn't created with Dukat in mind from the beginning I still think he fits the role better than any other antagonist that has been on DS9.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Overstay is much worse IMO.

If Dexter had ended after the fourth season, it would have ended as a great show. Instead, they doubled its length and turned it into a plot hole ridden piece of garbage.

If Dexter had been cancelled after its first season, it still would have been a great show and that season's arc would have actually made a great ending to a mini series. Even though it would have been gone too soon (at least IMO since I thought season 4 was the best one), I still would have remembered it as a great show.

 

[NSGrendel]

If a program that I like survives more than a season I'm totally stoked. That Farscape got 4 seasons still amazes me to this day.

I'm much more used to shows getting a single season - Firefly and particularly Brimstone being the most notable examples that come to mind. It also means that they don't go all flaccid and rotten in the final seasons.

 

[Kyrian007]

There's different categories of both though. For "Gone too soon" you have the things that were 1 season shows (or less) and then things that went a little longer but still ended when there was clearly more to go. Firefly and The Unusuals qualify for the first type and things like Dollhouse, Jericho, And especially Carnivale (my favorite show ever) are in that second category. And as far as "overstayed it's welcome" there's the "oops" kind like Babylon 5 which told it's whole story then found out it got renewed for a 5th season. So they did a season 5... but at least it ended after that. Something like the X-Files went on 4 or 5 years past it's "should have ended" mark (after the guest written episodes of season 5.)

But Carter's shows were all over that grid. X-F went on far too long. Mil went about 1/2 season too far. And TLG... I'm not sure, somewhere between over too soon and not good enough to be missed. But Harsh Realm, without a doubt over too soon.

As for which is worse... well they all feel terrible. I suppose because my favorite show on the grid here is Carnivale I'd have to say over too soon is worst. But really, what's worse a boxing glove to the gnads or a bare fist to the face? Can we agree we'd perfer none of the above as opposed to debating the specific level of "suck."

 

[King of Asgaard]

While Dukat and the Pagh Wraiths may have had focus only towards the end, most episodes in the final season had parts of that subplot interspersed throughout. It's not like it was introduced 5 minutes before the deadline and tossed in for shits and giggles; it had been building up for a long time.

Oh I know, I just only brought up season 7 because that was where you said the series (particularly Dukat) started to go sour for you.

And I agree, after 'Waltz' he was done as a character

I never said that and in fact the whole personal conflict between Sisko and Dukat would have felt unresolved to me if Dukat completely disappeared after "Waltz". To me the end of "Waltz" marks the beginning of the end for Dukat as well as the conflict between him and Sisko. In other words I felt there was still more to come. Dukat has been Sisko's rival/nemesis since the beginning so I see it only appropriate that he be there till the end.

What I originally meant was that I found Dukat's return after "Waltz" necessary and that it could have been handled better. Dukat might not have been as good as he was in previous seasons, but the season 7's flaws didn't ruin his character for me.

but someone didn't get the memo and insisted he be brought back because he's the most recognisable antagonist in DS9

Personally I feel that Dukat fits rather well into that whole Pai wraith plot. Its a way for him to not only get back at Sisko but to also prove his superiority to Sisko (something he has been trying throughout the series). Even if the Pai wraith plot wasn't created with Dukat in mind from the beginning I still think he fits the role better than any other antagonist that has been on DS9.

To be fair, I think my dislike of Season 7's Pagh Wraith plot is because I think it completely missed the point of DS9. Putting a religious magical aspect into a series about space travel just din't sit well with me. It's sort of like having the aliens in Indiana Jones; there's no reason it can't be done, but unless it's done well, it breaks the established mythos. As I said before, the Bajorans weren't my favourite race, between their earrings and overly zealous approach to their religion, so a plot devoted entirely to their silly space devils rubbed me the wrong way.

Also, this is rather petty, but I really disliked the way they dealt with Dax's actor leaving, especially considering how good the characterization up to that point had been.

Regarding Dukat, I feel that following 'Waltz', while his conflict with Sisko may not have concluded, his character definitely had. Watch this:


Now, isn't the Dukat here a different one to what's seen later on? He acknowledges his hatred for a race he was tasked with overseeing, and yet he tried his damnedest to make the camps more agreeable. We see him come to terms with his true feelings about the Bajorans. After hearing his speech about his hatred, how can a man like that suddenly take up the ways of those he despises? His character hits its zenith in the clip I posted, yet hits its nadir in season 7, because it goes against Dukat's essence. Appropriate to the thread, Dukat outstayed his welcome. His journey was fascinating, but his destination was a bitter disappointment.

 

[Genocidicles]

Definitely overstayed it's welcome.

If it's gone too soon then you're just left pining over what might have been.

If it goes on and on, you slowly start to resent the thing you used to enjoy.

 

[PrimitiveJudge]

DS9 was my favorite of all the trek series, I just wish the war started earlier so the Breen can get more air time. While I admit Dukat was a complete badass before season 7, Garek was still my favorite no matter what. Oh and I hated the Bajorans with a passion. Useless, weak race of people.
ST-Enterprise: This show is a prime reason why the Romulans are my favorite race in the whole Star Trek universe. They ended it prematurely

SG1 ended with a really depressing last episode, damn you CCR. I wish SG atlantis would of gone on for 1 more season, they ended that prematurely.
SG:U. I loved it, every episode. Out of all the SG's it felt more serious on the fight for survival, my heart shattered when they ended it.

HIMYM oh god end already.
SOA, I still like and watch it, but I agree it is over done right now, to much crying.
Breaking Bad: seriously fuck that show, should of ended at season 3 or 4.

Supernatural: This is a tricky one, Season 9 is starting shortly. They really need to get back into the urban legend stuff, cause this angel/lucifer/demon/god thing is getting really repetitive. Please give Death for air time, that guy is a badass to no end.

Heroes: I think it ended right when it needed too.
Terra Nova: why did they pull the plug on this? It had DINOSAURS. holy crap a show with DINOSAURS.
Burn Notice: I think that show could of gone for a few more seasons, I hate it when shows end with a 1 hour episode, they should always end with a 2-hour.
Defiance: I hope that show goes on for a long time.
Arrow: I like it, season two starts today i think.

Destination truth: I do not believe in ghosts or cryptozoology monsters, Josh Gates was funny as hell in that show, they ended it to early. (yeah I know its reality T.V. but whatever)
CSI: Ted Danson saved the show
Law and Order SVU: ok just stop, it should of ended when Stabler left

So I guess I hate both, mainly when there isn't a good reason for it.

 

[Tom_green_day]

Also, HIMYM. If they didn't set the show up expecting to explain how the fuck Ted met his wife so early on, it wouldn't feel so dragged on at this point.

While I don't think I'll comment on the way you think it's overstayed it's welcome as I like it myself a lot, I'll agree that the mother-meeting part of the show was arguably never present, at least until the 8th season where it started to speed up a lot.
OT: Supernatural definitely has gone on too long, they're just making shit up as they go along now. At least they're doing less and less story-related episodes, and more one-off adventures in seasons 7 & 8 at least as in 1 & 2.
I think Green Wing was gone too soon, I would've liked to see more of them. Same with Black Books, they was pretty short at only 2 seasons.

 

[bigfatcarp93]

Gone too soon.

I'd much rather a show overstay its welcome, because then I can watch the good eps on DVD.

There you go.

Yeah, if a show overstays it's welcome, well... who cares? Just don't watch the episodes from after it started to suck. But a show that leaves before it's time? Well, now all those potential good episodes don't even exist.

Oh, Spectacular Spider-Man, I miss you...

 

[Zetatrain]

To be fair, I think my dislike of Season 7's Pagh Wraith plot is because I think it completely missed the point of DS9. Putting a religious magical aspect into a series about space travel just din't sit well with me.

Fair enough you certainly wouldn't be the only person to have told me that. I found the prophet aspect a bit weird at first, but it didn't take too long for me to except the concept. It's probably because DS9 wasn't the first Sci-fi series I watched that mixed with magic like religious aspects.

Now, isn't the Dukat here a different one to what's seen later on? He acknowledges his hatred for a race he was tasked with overseeing, and yet he tried his damnedest to make the camps more agreeable. We see him come to terms with his true feelings about the Bajorans. After hearing his speech about his hatred, how can a man like that suddenly take up the ways of those he despises?

Means to an end? Granted its been a few years since I last saw season 7, but to me Dukat turning to the Pai-wraith was just a means to destroy the Bajorans culture as well as get back at Sisko, rather than the result of any religious epiphany.

I should also point out the Pai-wraiths are considered evil to the Bajorans so Dukat joining forced with them isn't exactly what I would call taking up the ways of those he despises. That's like says someone who worships Satan is taking up the ways of Christianity.

 

[King of Asgaard]

To be fair, I think my dislike of Season 7's Pagh Wraith plot is because I think it completely missed the point of DS9. Putting a religious magical aspect into a series about space travel just din't sit well with me.

Fair enough you certainly wouldn't be the only person to have told me that. I found the prophet aspect a bit weird at first, but it didn't take too long for me to except the concept. It's probably because DS9 wasn't the first Sci-fi series to mix with in magic like religious aspects that i watched.

Now, isn't the Dukat here a different one to what's seen later on? He acknowledges his hatred for a race he was tasked with overseeing, and yet he tried his damnedest to make the camps more agreeable. We see him come to terms with his true feelings about the Bajorans. After hearing his speech about his hatred, how can a man like that suddenly take up the ways of those he despises?

Means to an end? Granted its been a few years since I last saw season 7, but to me Dukat turning to the Pai-wraith was just a means to destroy the Bajorans culture as well as get back at Sisko, rather than the result of any religious epiphany.

I should also point out the Pai-wraiths are considered evil to the Bajorans so Dukat joining forced with them isn't exactly what I would call taking up the ways of those he despises. That's like says someone who worships Satan is taking up the ways of Christianity.

The thing is, Dukat refers to the Bajorans' superstitions in the clip, which I take to mean their entire religion, as something about the Bajorans that he hates. Here, the word 'superstitions' implies that he does not share their belief in the Pagh Wraiths (as they form part of the religion), so even as a means to an end, it makes no sense that he would suddenly bank his entire resurgence on 'superstitions'. So, by directly seeking them out, he is contradicting himself. Granted, he's unstable, but I doubt that's what accounted for this sudden 180 in perspective.

 

[The Enquirer]

The thing is that someone will always think a show is gone too soon. Burn Notice, for example, ended this year in it's 7th season and honestly I feel like the show should have continued past that. To me, even after seven years... it's gone too soon. And there are shows that seem to even just get past the first season and it overstays it welcome. For me the show Heroes is an example of that.

For Burn Notice, I think that given what happened the last few episodes with Michael and James they really should have had one more season exploring what it was James's organization was doing and that monster Michael was becoming and had been referred to by Larry throughout each of his episodes. So I would say one more season of that.

There's also the very obvious Firefly.

 

[Zetatrain]

The thing is, Dukat refers to the Bajorans' superstitions in the clip, which I take to mean their entire religion, as something about the Bajorans that he hates. Here, the word 'superstitions' implies that he does not share their belief in the Pagh Wraiths (as they form part of the religion), so even as a means to an end, it makes no sense that he would suddenly bank his entire resurgence on 'superstitions'. So, by directly seeking them out, he is contradicting himself. Granted, he's unstable, but I doubt that's what accounted for this sudden 180 in perspective.

I'll admit this is where I have to hypothesize, because one of my complaints of how Dukat was handled in the last season was that we never really got a clear explanation of how he ended up finding the Pai-wraiths to begin with especially since he never even heard of them (as far as the audience knows) before he shows up with one in Season 6's Finale.

The way I see it, its possible that after the 2500 Dominion ships just vanished from the wormhole he began to consider that maybe just maybe not all of this prophet business is superstitious nonsense and that there is some truth, however so small, to it.

Even if superstition is one reason he hated the Bajorans it was only one out of several reasons he hated them and it doesn't seem like it was even the reason he hated them most for. So if he has to embrace or at the very least dabble in one aspect he hates about them to in order to get revenge on the Bajorans then so be it.

Considering that Dukat can no longer just simply wipe out the Bajorans with an orbital strike or any conventional miltary means he has to be more creative. The religious culture is probably the most important thing to the Bajoran race, what better way to get revenge than by destroying it. It also seems like the best kind of revenge in a poetic sort of way than just simply killing them.

So after "Waltz" its possible he decided that the best way to destroy the Bajorans from within would be through their religion. It's possible that while he was researching Bajoran religion he discovered the Pai-Wraith or who knows maybe they found him.

So take all of this and combine it with the fact that Dukat is a wee bit unhinged, Dukat turning to the Pai-Wraiths as a means for revenge doesn't seem too far fetched to me.