Good Villains Make Good Stories
- Thread starter Emiscary
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Thos is true, a good antagonist is a huge part of a story for me. For example, part of the reason why the star wars prequels aren't nearly as good as the origional trilogy is the lack of any interesting villains. (Mind you that's one out of hundreds of reasons why.)
The problem is actually pretty obvious.Emiscary said:
Most games don't put much emphasis on plot or character, instead assigning "roles" to each character and imposing them on a cookie cutter plots with equally cookie cutter antagonists. The reason they do this is simply because they haven't bothered to higher a decent writer (who actually gives a shit about the game). The writers sole purpose is to give the player a reason to massacre hundreds of soldiers like some genocidal maniac and NOT feel bad about it. Even the GTA games do this by making everyone in the whole world look like a complete douche, meaning genocidal rampages feel satisfying rather then disturbing. Same goes for prototype.
There is another issue of "been there done that". It's harder to generate a villain that hasn't been done before, and the ones that DO stand out are so distinct that using them as an archetype will generate a lot of negativity for "stealing" a concept.
But here's the thing, there are games that make good use of Antagonists. And just like film, there are a crapload more that don't even try to make good use of their villains. This is what makes these games special...
Off the top of my head:
***Ulysses from Fallout New Vegas:
Though he isn't the final enemy of the game, or even the focus of most of the plot, he is the orchestrator who set things in motion and acted in direct opposition of you, The Courier, challenging your decisions and actions up to the point of meeting him. He is the only force that acts against you personally in the story, and he plays the part of a distorted mirror image of The Courier. Not only that, but the outcome of his story arc has an impact at the endgame in new vegas, that makes everything you fight for seem to have more weight behind it.
***Shodan from System Shock:
An advanced AI that not only gained sentience, but also a god complex. Given her limitless ability to learn and solve problems she actually creates new life and turns her gaze on humanity in a bid to make them worship her (or to be eradicated if they didn't)
Seems pretty shallow right? Well In System Shock 2 she returns with what is still one of the best plot twists in games to date (for me), not only that she becomes an uncoventional ally as you combat her now evolved and unruly "children" from the previous game.
In Both games she is a constant presence, frequently contacting you with threats or demeaning your every accomplishment. In the 2nd game the dynamic between her and her children is just amazingly done...
***Andrew Ryan from Bioshock:
Though he isn't the true enemy of the game
***Alma from Fear 1:
Before the writers got smacked by the retard stick, she was a psychotic spirit of an immensely powerful psychic child, looking to punish those who made her life the horror that it was. Her presence through the story was unusual for a game, in that she wasn't the reason you were fighting (Fettel was), but she was a major driving force behind the events in the game. What's more, she's a villain who get's sympathy from the player, as her history unfolds through the story...
Minor Suggestion: Don't play the expansions or the sequels... let the pure goodness of the original game be your only experience of Alma. She becomes a tired mess and contradictive to her character in later games (and loses any sympathy she garnered in the first game).
Because the wall of text is getting a bit much now, I'll leave it at that. I have plenty more I could list though.
Seconding this.Karutomaru said:
Last boss in Xenoblade was a bit strange I think but MetalFace was a really good baddie, same as with some of the other "medium bosses"
But yeah, MajorasMask was an interresting boss, I also like Ganon.
Arthas in Warcraft III
Letho!!
from The Witcher 2.
He is an awesome villain because he isn't evil, he's just doing what he has to, to survive in the world, and that sadly pus him in conflict with your character Geralt. He's just like you but you're opposed - not necessarily evil, he is a great villain. And you don't even have to kill him to win the game.
Delita Heiral from Final Fantasy Tactics is a great villain. He's not even the guy you set out to kill or even do kill in the end, but he still manages to be a guy who drives the plot, and the least evil one to do it at that. He opposes the main character, but was once his ally. And his story has a tragic end that makes him seem sympathetic. Basically, every good villain trait in one.
from The World Ends With You. He legitimately seemed like a red herring for a while.
Luca and Jowy from Suikoden II. Lyon from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones.
Gotta pay lip(keyboard?) service to Joker, Kefka, Shodan and Andrew Ryan, even though they've already been mentioned.
From outside of games my favourite villains are probably Nimue, Lancelot and Mordred from the Warlord Chronicles, Bill from Kill Bill (I think he's been mentioned) and Griffith from Berserk.
Joshua
Luca and Jowy from Suikoden II. Lyon from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones.
Gotta pay lip(keyboard?) service to Joker, Kefka, Shodan and Andrew Ryan, even though they've already been mentioned.
From outside of games my favourite villains are probably Nimue, Lancelot and Mordred from the Warlord Chronicles, Bill from Kill Bill (I think he's been mentioned) and Griffith from Berserk.
I know she isn't the main villain of the game, but I love Brahne Raza Alexandros A.K.A. Queen Brahne from ffix. what makes her interesting as a villain, despite her just having the average wants to take over the world idea is the way she got to it. Apparently she was once actually a good and fair ruler and a loving mother to one f the game's main protagonists, but then her husband died. Whilst in her state of grief she was offerred the weaponry and means with which to take over the world, and she took it, little knowing that she was being used. This planted the seed of greed within her causing her to, amongst other things:
Try to kill her daughter in order to get the power she possessed
Commit genocide
destroy entire cities
and turn her weapons on her supplier, leading to her death
What also makes her interesting is the way in which she does all this, the party never battles her, she doesn't get a boss fight, she just orchestrates everything and in the end stands in the ruins of another kingdom gloating about how great this is. And what's even more amazing is that even after she dies the game stillmakes you feel sorry for her.
ok finished my little ffix fanboy rant. thanks to anyone who read the whole thing.
Try to kill her daughter in order to get the power she possessed
Commit genocide
destroy entire cities
and turn her weapons on her supplier, leading to her death
What also makes her interesting is the way in which she does all this, the party never battles her, she doesn't get a boss fight, she just orchestrates everything and in the end stands in the ruins of another kingdom gloating about how great this is. And what's even more amazing is that even after she dies the game stillmakes you feel sorry for her.
ok finished my little ffix fanboy rant. thanks to anyone who read the whole thing.
What makes the Joker good is the masterplan behind all the crazy shit. Since his goal is carnage it`s more the how does he pull it off this time and the reasons for the madness.Lumber Barber said:
Finish Batman Arkham Asylum for a good example of this.
The whole "how" is what entertains just like Batmans "how" does he get out of there.
When i think of the Joker i`ve never thougt about the movie actors.
Edit: Well-acted is always a plus, true.
The Joker is great because he gives damn-near endless freedom to writers.
Take Carnage in contrast; who is supposed to share the same chaos-for-its-own-sake worldview, but found himself written into a wall. They made him too powerful, failed to establish any subtextual narrative discourse between him in the main character, (in a way where he can challenge the character on a moral or philosophical level, and force reactions by pushing his buttons) and generally closed off character possibilities instead of opening them.
Once you've had a few issues of him strolling through a major city street in broad daylight, killing random civillians for no reason; his jig is pretty much up.
Take Carnage in contrast; who is supposed to share the same chaos-for-its-own-sake worldview, but found himself written into a wall. They made him too powerful, failed to establish any subtextual narrative discourse between him in the main character, (in a way where he can challenge the character on a moral or philosophical level, and force reactions by pushing his buttons) and generally closed off character possibilities instead of opening them.
Once you've had a few issues of him strolling through a major city street in broad daylight, killing random civillians for no reason; his jig is pretty much up.
It was what he was that gave Sovereign that "holy shit feel" that Saren also had. Yeah, you would fight through waves of geth or rachni and not feel scared or challenged, but when Saren (and later Sovereign when you find out that he is a reaper) makes an appearance (Sovereign's entrance at the end of the game was amazing!) such as the one on Virmire, you know that something is going down and the shit will hit the fan.Elmoth said:
Y'know what's tragic? I'm a fan of Carnage as a concept, but I agree with you. And it's not just that they made him too powerful, it's that they made him too boring. I mean he has no quirks, no established backstory beyond the bare minimum, and no interesting/entertaining dialogue.Khanht Cope said:
Both he and Venom probably deserve to be better written than they are >.>
Loghaine from Dragon Age. It's all well and good to have a villain that relies on power and evil, but the thing that made Mr. Mac Tir so villainous was the fact that most people loved him, and even when a kidnapped son of a noble addressed the Landsmeet about Loghaine's villainy, there were still many nobles who wouldn't stop supporting him. Also he was a hero who legitimately earned his reputation and love. Politics is complicated, and the Loghaine's actions and character redefined the idea of gray area.