Graphics; yay or nay.

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ZippyDSMlee

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Sep 1, 2007
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Pyrrian said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Try again DOOM 3 is full of fail beyond fail the walkable level layout is more simplistic than DOOM and most adventure games made in the early 90s,the weapons are at best throwbacks to the mid 90s just befog alt mode became mandatory, the lack of a shoulder light,night vision or other light devices a sign of the lack of depth in design...... DOOM 3 is everything wrong with modern gaming.
Err... the point was that Doom 3 was the only game I could think of that might remotely fit the description of a game with an emphasis on the visuals and neglect to play mechanics. Who are you arguing with?

Though you also seem to be saying the shortcomings and discrepencies of Doom 3 are typical of modern games, which is complete nonsense. Doom 3 is the exception, not the rule.

zippy+midnight posting = zippy canna read ><

sorry been sick and its been putting me to skim mode on reading...that is if I can read ><

that and me loathing for D3 just sparking personal pawnage 0-o

And yes...zippy dose hand himself his own ass alot >>


I can think of a few other FPSs that focused on graphics/physics over everything else ,quake 4,Jericho,UT03,unreal 2 comes to mind, Bioshock and dues ex 2 are more mainsteamized to maximize sells to non series fans...mmm I guess Q4 can be called miansteamized as well....
 

Pyrrian

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Oct 3, 2007
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ZippyDSMlee said:
zippy+midnight posting = zippy canna read ><

sorry been sick and its been putting me to skim mode on reading...that is if I can read ><

that and me loathing for D3 just sparking personal pawnage 0-o

And yes...zippy dose hand himself his own ass alot >>


I can think of a few other FPSs that focused on graphics/physics over everything else ,quake 4,Jericho,UT03,unreal 2 comes to mind, Bioshock and dues ex 2 are more mainsteamized to maximize sells to non series fans...mmm I guess Q4 can be called miansteamized as well....
No worries, heh. Anyhow, I think the real root of the problem is what you've mentioned in the last paragraph. Quality games have to be built and marketed towards the mainstream. Which isn't a huge switch - it's been happening forever - but it's more noticable now that game production can cost a heck of a lot.

It's sort of weeding out the quality niche titles and replacing them with more user-friendly versions. And, if all that means is a streamlining of controls, I'm not one to complain (I like good controls). However, I think this often results in the elimination of mechanics that required players to be good at games, or learn certain things, or just the removal of things that only a niche group of players would want.

On one hand, these people have to make games for the masses, or they'll go out of business. If I were to make my ideal game, for instance, I'm almost certain it would bomb, simply because it would involve one-hit-kills (for players and enemies - a la Bushido Blade 2) and exceedingly difficult situations. For me, and a small group of players, that would be great and challenging. For most people, it'd be frustrating and annoying.

There once may have been a time where the small group could have justified the game because it just cost less to make games that met technology standards of the day. Now, the loss of money would probably be enormous. So we get big-name games that just don't require a ton of effort to beat, and lack those niche mechanics (though even that has been that way for years, at least since the PS1). There are some, though. Cave still does a bang-up job when they release a shmup, for instance.

You see, my biggest problem with games is that I actually like to lose. And not infrequently. I just wish that there were more games that came out that made me lose, at least at first. I mean, I don't want a game to be totally broken (as in, bugged to make me lose), but a difficult game makes me so happy.
 

clockpenalty

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Nov 25, 2007
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I think graphics are relevant. But to defend this point I have to put across that I see it as being more complex than mere ploygon counts at the stage we are in today.

graphics can be technical complexity, visual design and artistic beauty.

If Tetris had poor visual design, it would never have been popular. IMagine a version of tetris where the blocks were substituted for something less intuitive, or with fuzzily designed boundaries between elements of the grid. The game would be frustrating, and probably nauseating to play (it may make you feel funny in the pit of your stomach). However its simple visual style works perfectly and fortunately for the developer does not require much artistic beauty or technical wizardry.

Now take a shooter like Halo. Techically, the graphics were nothing to write home about, even when the game was released. However the artistic style was and still is beautiful, and the simplicity of its visual style (abstract alien shapes, laser beams, spartan, unpopulated areas devoid of wildlife) meant that not much in the way of techical sophistication was needed to make it work.

What about Doom3? We all knew it should get 99% for graphics due to the advanced technology behind it, but the images were not pleasing to look at, and most of the time the great lighting technology worked against the game.

The way I see it,doom 3 is not an example of a game that failed due to graphics over gameplay, but a game with poor overall graphics despite advanced technology.

On the wii, mario galaxy looks great because the visual style does not demand advanced technology to bring out the best of its artistic beauty. The majority of wii games however look like crap becuse they are designed with no attention to beauty or a good clean visual style, with the outdatd technology used as an excuse.

So I say Graphics, yay, but only when seen as more than merely volumetric fog, HDR, heat haze or some other bullet points that do nothing to enhance the pleasure experienced by the gamer.


POST SCRIPT:

On the subject of ps3 vs 360 vs wii, it is worth noting that technical prowess is a tool that makes creating a beautiful work of art or a good visual style more accesible to developers. A game set in the busy streets of a city will likely look terrible on a machine that lacks the power to reproduce the ambience of such a scene. That a game set in a mushroom forest may look the same on both machines is beside the point: the more powerful machine has the option of doing either one or the other.

The wii's lack of technical capability is in my opinion,a disadvantage because it limits the ability of developers to produce a game that will please the gamer aesthetically. However please note that this would not have been a problem if the standard display technology had remained a 480i television set, because the wii is capable of producing graphics that have a wide range of uses on such a display. Unfortunately modern television sets demand a much sharper and better defined image, and thus the wii hardware does present a problem in modern times.

POST POST SCRIPT:

On the question of graphics versus gameplay, I dont believe either is more important. I believe they all contribute to the viewers' subconscious immersion in the game which directkly translates to their enjoyment of it. Traditional board games that rely entirely on the imagination have to be absolutely outstanding in the balance of their rulesets before they can hold attention of players- there are huge boks full of board and card games that will never be widely played because they are nowhere near as engaging as the big, popular board/.card games. A game with bad graphics will cause the players imagination to do more work, which may or may not detract from the experience depending on the nature of the game. Adding snazzy 3d graphics to street fighter detracts from the game because the subconsicous contract our minds make with the game to 'buy into' the experience, i this case consisting of frame counts, frame times, and clearly defined boundaries and hit markers that correspond to the 2-dimensional onscreen sprites, breaks down when depth of field, multiple viewpoibnts and 30 fps animations are brought into play. On the other hand, soulcalibur which depends on visual cues only possible with high framrate animation, and hit regions based on horizontal/vertical weapon movements would be useless in 2d.

Adding splintering wood, realistic physics, dust, smoke, heat haze, and silhouettes to call of duty 4 modern warfare has in my opinion greatly advanced the game by improving its atmosphere. Adding exactly the same to super mario world would result in a very strange product indeed, certainly one that doesnt look quite as pleasant. On the other hand, adding antialiasing and colour gradients to super mario world could enhance the experience!

Its all about visual style and artistic beauty in addition to technology.

please excuse my endless rant...
 

Shadow Link

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Nov 22, 2007
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Personally, I don't care how a game looks as long as I can make out where everything is, I don't like having to purchase the latest PC hardware every couple of years just to play the latest games. I only really care about gameplay and storyline, the latest games have only stuck to graphics because for the gaming industries and hardware developing companies its the best way to make money... that is why all the older games appear longer and more challenging, well for me anyway.

It's really amazing how many of the latest games I have taken back because I have finished them within a few days, I still have older classics on my shelf.
 

clockpenalty

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Nov 25, 2007
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jeffers

I think the developers of crysis did themselves a huge disservice by focusing on the graphics. They are easily the least important aspect of the game. Take a look at the demo, put all the graphic options on lowest (you'll need to do that to run the damn thing at all), reconfigure the controls to put suit mode toggle on a key close to WASD and you are about to experience one of the best FPS games to be released this year- the reviews do NOT lie.

My system (geforce 7800 go figure!) is ill-equipped to run this game at even medium quality but it is nonetheless awesome.
 

laikenf

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Oct 24, 2007
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Grafics are important, lets not get that one wrong, but EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US HERE KNOWS that no matter how good the grafics on a game are after playing for more than 30 mins. you're not really paying much attention to them (you're more busy trying to conquer the game itself). Sure, good visuals will immerse a player, but not for the entire experience with the game. Another thing is that good grafics involves much more than just photorealistic visuals, you've got to have a smooth framerate to go with that as well as good art direction (which some good looking games totally lack). As far as grafics hurting gameplay; well all I can say about that is yes, some developers spend a lot of time creating good visuals for a game. Look at the case of the popular FPS genre; most of those games are great looking but the gameplay is basically the same(some are WW2, some are in outer space, some are in the future, a jungle, etc.). My point is that developers are kind of playing it safe by not taking a lot of risks creating interesting and compelling games (again, FPS's are a good example) but they sure as hell make 'em look good.