Green vs Blue, Celtics vs Rangers, Fenians versus Huns and Footbal Violence in Glasgow.

[Helmholtz Watson]

Preface:This subject seems like a very sensitive one, so my apologies if I offended anyone or brought up bad memories of loved ones.

So I just watched this video and I'm trying to figure out why there is so much hatred between the two groups and what effect it has had on Glasgow as a whole.

Some people seem to think that its completely overplayed by the media(5:07 Mark Dingwall,), and in regards to the term "90 minute bigot [http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/90-minute-bigot]" the feeling is that the football games are just a way for the working class to use as a release valve after spending the whole week working. On the other hand, there are groups like Nil By Mouth [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nil_by_Mouth_%28charity%29](10:18) that are opposed to sectarianism in Scotland and want to get rid of it. But what confuses me is why is religion, nationalism and ethnicity an issue in these games? I can't really see the connection that football has to all of those things.

So what do you think about these football matches? Do you think that they are a big deal or has the media made it worse than it really is and its just a case of a couple bad eggs falsely representing both groups.
Also, do your country having anything similar to this? I thought I remembered England having some issues with Chelsea, but as far as for us Americans the only thing I can think of that is remotely similar is Raiders fans who I have heard can be quite violent.

Discuss

 

[ClockworkPenguin]

Its sectarianism, or started as it. A lot of football teams where started by churches/congregations. Celtic is the catholic team. Rangers are the protestant team. There used to be major hatred and violence between the catholics and protestants in Scotland (almost, but not quite as bad as Ireland). It's not completely gone away even now.


Add that to your usual football tribalism (ie. liverpool-Everton, ManU-ManCity, Birmingham-AstonVilla) and you have a recipe for violence every time the teams play each other.

It'll ease for a while, 'cos rangers got sent to league 3 after they went bust.

(edit, so that my post has some sort of evidence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarianism_in_Glasgow)

 

[Andy Shandy]

Well my country is the one that had this. But yeah, it's sectarianism pretty much. Celtic fans are/were from the Catholic community and Rangers are/were from the Protestant Unionist community. So that was a good start. Then you mix in the fact that both teams are based in Glasgow, with already creates a rivalry, and them both being hugely successful teams, it builds up to a powderkeg.

And the media definitely doesn't blow it out of proportion. After (and some might say during) Old Firm derbies, there is an increase in assaults - including domestic abuse. I'd like to note, being a fan of one of the "diddy teams" Dundee United, this doesn't tend to happen with the other derbies (Dundee, New Firm, Edinburgh etc)

So, in my opinion, thank Christ it's gone for the foreseeable future.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Well my country is the one that had this. But yeah, it's sectarianism pretty much. Celtic fans are/were from the Catholic community and Rangers are/were from the Protestant Unionist community. So that was a good start. Then you mix in the fact that both teams are based in Glasgow, with already creates a rivalry, and them both being hugely successful teams, it builds up to a powderkeg.

And the media definitely doesn't blow it out of proportion. After (and some might say during) Old Firm derbies, there is an increase in assaults - including domestic abuse. I'd like to note, being a fan of one of the "diddy teams" Dundee United, this doesn't tend to happen with the other derbies (Dundee, New Firm, Edinburgh etc)

So, in my opinion, thank Christ it's gone for the foreseeable future.

I'm a bit ignorant about Scotland, so can you explain why Glasgow being the location would be a contributing problem?

Also, if I'm a American(with German ancestry) and I'm Catholic, would Rangers fans care about me being in their neighborhood? Or would I get a free pass because I'm not Irish?

 

[Andy Shandy]

Well my country is the one that had this. But yeah, it's sectarianism pretty much. Celtic fans are/were from the Catholic community and Rangers are/were from the Protestant Unionist community. So that was a good start. Then you mix in the fact that both teams are based in Glasgow, with already creates a rivalry, and them both being hugely successful teams, it builds up to a powderkeg.

And the media definitely doesn't blow it out of proportion. After (and some might say during) Old Firm derbies, there is an increase in assaults - including domestic abuse. I'd like to note, being a fan of one of the "diddy teams" Dundee United, this doesn't tend to happen with the other derbies (Dundee, New Firm, Edinburgh etc)

So, in my opinion, thank Christ it's gone for the foreseeable future.

I'm a bit ignorant about Scotland, so can you explain why Glasgow being the location would be a contributing problem?

Also, if I'm a American(with German ancestry) and I'm Catholic, would Rangers fans care about me being in their neighborhood? Or would I get a free pass because I'm not Irish?

What I was meaning about the Glasgow thing was that it's just that both clubs are in the same city. For example, I doubt it would be nearly as bad, if say, Celtic were based up north in Inverness and Rangers down in Stirling. So it's not Glasgow itself that is the problem, but the fact that both clubs are in the same place.

And for the second part, well I can't say for certain, but I would doubt it. I don't know if I'm wording this right and I can't be truly sure anyway not being a fan of either club myself, but the religion part nowadays is more used as a stick to beat the other one with. It's more "They're our rivals, and they're Catholics, so we'll sing anti-Catholic songs since we don't like them" as opposed to any true hatred of Catholics. If this was older times, then you being Catholic may very well have been a problem.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Well my country is the one that had this. But yeah, it's sectarianism pretty much. Celtic fans are/were from the Catholic community and Rangers are/were from the Protestant Unionist community. So that was a good start. Then you mix in the fact that both teams are based in Glasgow, with already creates a rivalry, and them both being hugely successful teams, it builds up to a powderkeg.

And the media definitely doesn't blow it out of proportion. After (and some might say during) Old Firm derbies, there is an increase in assaults - including domestic abuse. I'd like to note, being a fan of one of the "diddy teams" Dundee United, this doesn't tend to happen with the other derbies (Dundee, New Firm, Edinburgh etc)

So, in my opinion, thank Christ it's gone for the foreseeable future.

I'm a bit ignorant about Scotland, so can you explain why Glasgow being the location would be a contributing problem?

Also, if I'm a American(with German ancestry) and I'm Catholic, would Rangers fans care about me being in their neighborhood? Or would I get a free pass because I'm not Irish?

What I was meaning about the Glasgow thing was that it's just that both clubs are in the same city. For example, I doubt it would be nearly as bad, if say, Celtic were based up north in Inverness and Rangers down in Stirling. So it's not Glasgow itself that is the problem, but the fact that both clubs are in the same place.

And for the second part, well I can't say for certain, but I would doubt it. I don't know if I'm wording this right and I can't be truly sure anyway not being a fan of either club myself, but the religion part nowadays is more used as a stick to beat the other one with. It's more "They're our rivals, and they're Catholics, so we'll sing anti-Catholic songs since we don't like them" as opposed to any true hatred of Catholics. If this was older times, then you being Catholic may very well have been a problem.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Nightspore]

As others have said, for historical reasons there has been religious and political conflict and friction between protestants and catholics in Scotland for hundreds of years. It spilled over into bigoted tribalism and gangs in parts of Scotland and this hasn't been helped by the fact that the main football teams in Glasgow and Edinburgh are segregated with Celtic and Hibernian FC being seen as catholic football teams and Heart of Midlothian and Rangers as protestant ones.

It has been further politicised by the whole Orange Lodge thing on the protestant side and the pro-IRA element on the catholic side. There were James Connelly (pro-IRA) marches and orange lodge marches every year in Edinburgh when I was growing up, and there are still orange order marches to this day I believe. Wikipedia has a fairly good run down on the orange lodge and what it represents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order

And, as Sleekit points out, many of us in Glasgow and Edinburgh were further segregated by attending catholic schools or, by default definition in the popular imagination, protestant schools.

Sectarianism has been a scourge on Scottish life and football for a very long time. I myself was born to an orange lodge background and was literally born with the orange sash around me while surrounded by orange lodge members punching the air. I reject sectarianism and the hate - on both sides - that it breeds.

The violent street gang I grew up with in the Scottish ghetto was a mixed catholic and protestant one, but when we weren't fighting gangs from other neighborhoods, fights would break out over whether you were a catholic or a protestant.

The last time I attended a strip joint in Scotland (I was dragged there by my very dodgy older brother and his mates, honestly) people starting singing sectarian songs at each other. Brother comes back from the bar with a tray full of dark rums, "get some fightin' juice doon yeh" and 10 minutes later it was a full-on sectarian bar room brawl. Heck, that was maybe 20 years ago, now hehe.

However, my impression is that Scotland, Scottish society and Scottish football supporters have been taking and are taking great strides to eradicate hateful sectarianism from Scottish society and football clubs. I think a lot of progress has been made in the last 20 years, but that we still have a long way to go.

This religious sectarianism is captured well by a joke by Scottish comedian Frankie Boyle commenting on the failed Al Qaida attack on Glasgow airport. You can see the gag from around 1.47 in the clip.


Thanks OP for your interest in Scotland, though.

Despite some negative crap like sectarianism in certain Scottish cities, Scotland really is, nonetheless, a truly beautiful country. It would be more beautiful without violence and sectarianism, but I think we shall get there yet.

Regards

Nightspore

 

[Elementary - Dear Watson]

Well my country is the one that had this. But yeah, it's sectarianism pretty much. Celtic fans are/were from the Catholic community and Rangers are/were from the Protestant Unionist community. So that was a good start. Then you mix in the fact that both teams are based in Glasgow, with already creates a rivalry, and them both being hugely successful teams, it builds up to a powderkeg.

And the media definitely doesn't blow it out of proportion. After (and some might say during) Old Firm derbies, there is an increase in assaults - including domestic abuse. I'd like to note, being a fan of one of the "diddy teams" Dundee United, this doesn't tend to happen with the other derbies (Dundee, New Firm, Edinburgh etc)

So, in my opinion, thank Christ it's gone for the foreseeable future.

I'm a bit ignorant about Scotland, so can you explain why Glasgow being the location would be a contributing problem?

Also, if I'm a American(with German ancestry) and I'm Catholic, would Rangers fans care about me being in their neighborhood? Or would I get a free pass because I'm not Irish?

To be honest, it is quite a violent part of the world anyway... renowned for it's violent crime... Your religion and nationality would be used more of an excuse to get mugged than any actual religious tension.

The whole issue is just a religious one... as it has been said above! It is less so now, that is just more of an excuse for the fans to get into fights! Just a vehicle for the increased use of violence... and any religious imagery is a badge of honour to wind the other fans up!

 

[Stu35]

To be honest, it is quite a violent part of the world anyway... renowned for it's violent crime... Your religion and nationality would be used more of an excuse to get mugged than any actual religious tension.

I think the 'Glasgow as a shithole' stereotype is a bit overplayed to be honest. I lived there for a few years, and I'd argue its no worse than any other big city in the UK - You wouldn't go to certain areas of London, Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester etc. etc. It's the same with Glasgow.

As for the football: St. Mirren 'til I die! (By which I of course mean, I have little to no interest in football, but if there's a Buddies (or Leeds) game on then I'll watch it).

 

[Tropicaz]

You get extreme hatred between an awful lot of clubs. My mate got the crap kicked out of him because he was wearing a newcastle shirt in Sunderland on derby day. The old firm is just fuelled by religion as well as general club hatred. It also doesnt help that they were also the 2 title contenders (until this season). Though tbh any British rivalries, including the old firm, kind of pales in comparison to Fenerbahce and Galatasaray in TUrkey and River Plate and Boca Juniors in argentina.

 

[Karelwolfpup]

Well my country is the one that had this. But yeah, it's sectarianism pretty much. Celtic fans are/were from the Catholic community and Rangers are/were from the Protestant Unionist community. So that was a good start. Then you mix in the fact that both teams are based in Glasgow, with already creates a rivalry, and them both being hugely successful teams, it builds up to a powderkeg.

And the media definitely doesn't blow it out of proportion. After (and some might say during) Old Firm derbies, there is an increase in assaults - including domestic abuse. I'd like to note, being a fan of one of the "diddy teams" Dundee United, this doesn't tend to happen with the other derbies (Dundee, New Firm, Edinburgh etc)

So, in my opinion, thank Christ it's gone for the foreseeable future.

I'm a bit ignorant about Scotland, so can you explain why Glasgow being the location would be a contributing problem?

Also, if I'm a American(with German ancestry) and I'm Catholic, would Rangers fans care about me being in their neighborhood? Or would I get a free pass because I'm not Irish?

Depending on where you are in Glasgow it doesn't need to be a derby and you don;t need to be anything specific or special, you just need to be there.

Getting back to the original question: the problem, as several folk have already said, is that it's a gang culture now, for both sides. You've got the fringes where people are part of it to belong to something, which, when all is said and done, is why most people become a part of something. You've got the more hardcore ones who have religious or political beliefs tied up with it. Then you've got the center of the problem: the drunken, drugged up, near illiterate muppets who've been born into the culture and know nothing else and have no chance of leaving it.

I've lived in Glasgow since 1996, I've experienced violence from both sides of the fence. Partly because I'm English, partly because I hang out with friends who are catholic or protestant, but mostly becaue I'm a big guy and someone else felt like having a barney with me. And that, right there, is the main thing about it. It's guys getting themsleves riled up because for them there's a thrill in the violence and its a release for them. That's the core of it: they're trapped in their situation and need a release valve.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I watched 10 minutes of the documentary and it pretty much confirmed what I have assumed as long as I knew about the rivalry; football, for some fans, is an outlet. Football itself isn't the problem, theres much deeper problems, problems most people ignore.

Does Germany have any problems like this? Perhaps in Bavaria or somewhere in Eastern Germany?