Grinding

[BloatedGuppy]

I've gone off on this topic before, so it was nice to hear someone else echo my sentiments on the subject. From 10:50 onward:


He's discussing GW2 there, and one of the things that he addresses is an accusation that GW2 is "grindy". You hear this a lot these days. It's even crept into single player games. I was grinding for levels in Dragon Age, someone will say. I was grinding up my weapon skill in Deus Ex. Soon I imagine people will discuss the terrible grind of unlocking songs in guitar games. Seriously, where does it stop?

The word "grind" has been robbed of all meaning. Everything is a fucking grind now. With the amount of grinding people are moaning about having to do it's a wonder they play the bloody games at all, instead of working in a nice rock quarry where they can get some recreation in.

I petition to have "grind" added to the buzzword embargo list, along with "fanboy" and "entitlement". Anyone using these words in a non-ironic context will be subject to an immediate, violent pantsing.

 

[Seren1988]

I petition to have "grind" added to the buzzword embargo list, along with "fanboy" and "entitlement". Anyone using these words in a non-ironic context will be subject to an immediate, violent pantsing.

I second this motion! The comments in the vid are very accurate too.

 

[Rylot]

I disagree. The video makes the case that just killing stuff to gain levels should be the only time the term 'grinding' is appropriate. I'd argue that grinding is applicable to any activity in a game that is solely for gaining levels and improving your character in some way.

He states that he used to play multi-user dungeons where there was no other way to gain levels was to just kill stuff. Then later goes onto state that other purely level gaining activities in a game cannot be considered grinding because you're just playing the game. But what? How is just killing monsters not part of just playing the game?

Grinding has a negative implication and if implemented poorly grinding is a terrible waste of time used to pad a game's length. Used well I'd say grinding gives the player time and space to learn the game and try new things out and add good pacing to the game.

I'd absolutely consider minor quests grinding. Quests that you're doing purely for the rewards it gives you and not to advance the main story is grinding to me. Sure a good game will have an interesting little story for the NPC you're doing it for but it's completely skip able and adds nothing to the main plot.

The way I've always used it and seen it as short hand for 'grind out' or as dictionary.com ( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Grinding?s=t ) puts it: 20.) to produce in a routine or mechanical way. As in 'I've gotta grind out a few more levels before I can take on that boss'.

...Shit. Sorry. Didn't mean to write a book. I've got figure out how to be more precise...

 

[Fr]anc[is]

Nobody talks about grind in DA or Deus Ex, since it is impossible. Nothing respawns and nothing is farmable.

 

[Zhukov]

I consider myself to be grinding when I am playing not for the sake of enjoying the gameplay or progressing the story (or, ideally, both of those) but rather for the sake of making numbers bigger.

For a single player example, Mount & Blade: Warband.

At one point I found myself trading items from one city to another in order to be able to afford better gear (that is to say, gear with bigger numbers attached) and attacking anything I saw in order to level up my troops (that is to say, make their numbers bigger).

That's when I asked myself what the fuck I was doing and promptly stopped playing.

When it comes to MMOs, I think the existence of gold/item merchants indicates the presence of grind. Think about it. People are actually paying other people hard currency to play the game for them, to spare themselves the tedium of playing the game they bought. A game they bought, presumably, because they expected to enjoy playing it.

Weird, no?

If I were playing, say... oh I dunno... Mirror's Edge and someone came up and said, "Hey, for the low, low price of just five dollars, I'll complete that game for you", I would tell them to bugger off. However, if I were playing Mount & Blade and that same person offered to give my character 2m gold and put 50 Nord Huscarls and 50 Rhodok Sharpshooters in each of my garrisons... well, I'd be tempted.

 

[DoPo]

I haven't really heard many people use "grinding" wrong. Then again, it's not a word that gets used that frequently either.

I'd absolutely consider minor quests grinding. Quests that you're doing purely for the rewards it gives you and not to advance the main story is grinding to me. Sure a good game will have an interesting little story for the NPC you're doing it for but it's completely skip able and adds nothing to the main plot.

You say that, yet the very definition you say you use disagrees with you

20.) to produce in a routine or mechanical way. As in 'I've gotta grind out a few more levels before I can take on that boss'.

A side quest isn't a repetitive boring thing you do. Well, it depends on the game, actually, but generally they aren't even in the same class as "Do X over and over again until Y" - be it "kill stuff until you level up" or "harvest herbs until you level up your skill".

 

[krazykidd]

Hey i like grinding , it's calming . I have absolutely no hate for grinding . Necessary or not .Hell most games these days don't even require you grind if you don't want to .You kids want everything handed to you on a silver platter without any work . * goes back to dragon quest 8*

 

[Rylot]

snip

Fair enough. For minor quests to fit into 'grinding' you do have to do multiple quests in a row but that action of:
-Get quest from quest giver
-Do quest
-Return to quest giver for reward
-Rinse and repeat until you've acquired a desired level/item/some quantifiable variant in the game
I'd say that is repetitive. Even if the quests themselves differ wildly having the structure creates repetition. Didn't mean to imply that all grinding is boring. I don't see grinding as either good or bad, depends on the implementation.

 

[Shadowstar38]

To grind, you have to meet these requirements.

1)Game has a leveling up system
2)You are doing something that makes that level go up.
3)What you are doing has no context, e.i. i not needed for a quest.

Dues Ex does not meet number 3 at any point.

Also, grinding itself is pointless. You should be able to complete the critical path with no stops in between if you choose to do so.

 

[Burig]

I'd say grinding is doing one activity in a video game over and over for a benifit other than enjoyment or (direct) story advancement (by that I mean being a higher level doesn't affect your ability to beat a boss, but your strength stat would, and leveling up increases strength, so it indirectly would help beat the boss, but not directly).

I've not played DW2 or DragonAge, or (I assume you mean the first) Deus Ex, so can't really comment on them, but I don't purposefully do anything to level up in games that aren't RPG's of some sort (final fantasy type, not fallout 3 type).

 

[BloatedGuppy]

People are actually paying other people hard currency to play the game for them, to spare themselves the tedium of playing the game they bought. A game they bought, presumably, because they expected to enjoy playing it.

Well this is a case of people enjoying one facet of a game but not another (i.e. they like end game raiding, but not necessarily leveling), so they find a way to skip one process in order to more quickly enjoy another. Much like, say, employing a mod to get past The Fade in Dragon Age, or skipping cut scenes in a game in which you find them irritating. It doesn't mean that cut scenes are a grind, unless we've devolved the meaning of the word to the point that everything is a grind.

I mean, I don't like formula one racing games. Would it make sense for me to say "I didn't enjoy this game, because it was too grindy!" The definition has become so broad that the word is utterly meaningless.

It reminds me of how "entitlement" was getting thrown around for a few months, and everyone latched on to it, and started using it in more and more spurious a fashion, until it got to the point where if you breathed a critical word you'd get slapped with "U R AN ENTITLEMENT!" like it was on everyone's word a day calendar and they couldn't wait to bust it out. This is grinding. If people want to communicate some vague or ill defined sense of dissatisfaction with an MMO or RPG, they bust out the "grinding" accusation. When WoW was first released it was praised in both the gaming media and public for being an "MMO without a grind". No more killing monsters! Questing everywhere! Now, it's the benchmark for grindy games. Oh the punitive, punitive grind. It's definition slippage, and I'll not stand for it!

(slams his dictionary down with stentorian fury)

 

[AndrewF022]

I think grinding can be done well, but very rarely is.

Grinding for the sake of gaining levels to beat a challenge = bad (such as Final Fantasy, <insert MOST, not all, JRPS here>)

Grinding as a means of learning gameplay mechanics and improving your knowledge of how to use them in different situations = good (Valkyria Chronicles for example)

 

[DoPo]

snip

-Get quest from quest giver
-Do quest
-Return to quest giver for reward
-Rinse and repeat until you've acquired a desired level/item/some quantifiable variant in the game

Funny how even major story quests can fit in here. You seem to misunderstand - grinding would be exactly formulaic, not fit into a general concept. I can break down an entire game like you did, would that make the game "grinding"? Launch game, play game, exit. Repeat until you beat it. But, no, that's not it, is it? Here is something formulaic:

1. Go to the forest
2. Kill goblins
3. Wait for goblins to respawn
4. Go to 2. until you level up.

Extremely simple, extremely clear cut. You can even make a bot do it with very little work. Hell, for some grinding, you may only need a script (repeat clicking in a pattern) or just a rubber band or keys (hold down a button). Let's try it with arbitrary sidequests:

1. Go to...some unspecified person.
2. Go...do something.
3. Return to the person.
4. Don't go to 1.
5. Find another person.
6. Do something completely different.
...etc

There is no simple cycle to go through - you're just adding more and more steps each time, since you're not exactly repeating what you did before. Not to mention that the minor quests will probably have some plot into them to give context for your actions, unlike actual grinding which you only have metagame motivation for.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

However, if I were playing Mount & Blade and that same person offered to give my character 2m gold and put 50 Nord Huscarls and 50 Rhodok Sharpshooters in each of my garrisons... well, I'd be tempted.

There is an enable cheats checkbox in the opening window. Press Ctrl + X in inventory for gold, in your stats page for free XP, and while looking at one of your goons in the party screen to give them xp. You gotta gather recruits on your own though. I accept payment in Steam cash or GOG gifts.

 

[Spectrum_Prez]

A good game should make you want to kill the same bad guys over and over again because it's fun, not because you're waiting for a specific drop or for the XP.

For example, after I finished the Bethesda-engine Fallout games' main storylines, there was nothing more fun than running around enemy spawn areas over and over again, thinking up new ways to cause havoc each time. With Martigen's Monster Mod and a few other additions, it became like a FPS version of GTA -- the game I've been waiting for forever.

/nuka cola grenades were awesome.

 

[Zaik]

I've never understood how GW got such fanatical fans.

I tried GW, got bored in like 10 minutes. It's great if you've ever wanted to know what it's like to be boring faceless soldier #405 who never does anything of any importance.

 

[FalloutJack]

The problem lies not with the word, but the people. Ban them, not the word.

 

[Don Savik]

I've never understood how GW got such fanatical fans.

I tried GW, got bored in like 10 minutes. It's great if you've ever wanted to know what it's like to be boring faceless soldier #405 who never does anything of any importance.

The irony of this statement is you are the Flameseeker, a warrior mention in prophecy to stop the White Mantle, which you do at the end of GW. I guess your just not a fan of rpgs like it? Its not hard to see from an outside perspective how certain games get popular.

 

[Rylot]

unlike actual grinding which you only have metagame motivation for.

When I'm doing multiple minor quests in short order to gain levels I'm doing it for the meta game motivation. I don't think all side quests are automatically grinding (Yeah, I didn't word it as well as I should have). I was imagining quests in WoW where I'd run up to an NPC quickly grab all the quests and run out and do them and bring them back. What I've done has no impact on the game world. Everything will grow back and respawn as if I'd never been there and the only reason I'm doing anything is to get new gear, gold, and xp. I consider that grinding.