Growing dissatisfaction

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Tyrel Arington

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Mar 6, 2012
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Lately, I have been growing disillusioned with the world in general. I choose to be informed as well as I can, see both sides of any argument. A large part of this is due to some internet forums, articles but isn't limited to it.

I try rather hard to start with an unbiased view, much like your supposed to when selected for Jury Duty. I view things from a rational point of view.

For example, a Gay couple goes into a cake store for a wedding cake. The said store refuses to sale a wedding cake, but will sale any other type of cake. It goes against their religious choices. The Gay community rallies a protest outside said store. A group from a local gun club reacts by staging a Anti-protest of before mentioned protest.

What is making me sick here is the cycle of hate. I feel that the cake store respected Gay consumers by not blanket refusing service to them, while still maintaining their moral choices. The Gay community could have reacted better here by respecting the owner's moral freedom by simply going somewhere else. I understand the need to protect one's rights, but is a cake shop really the place to do it? Did the shop deny the gay couple any of their freedoms? When I think of the word tolerance used in these situations I feel it is far to one sided. I choose to view it as a two way street. I respect your right to choose your pursuit of happiness, I ask you respect mine as well. When in conflict, don't make me compromise my moral choice, because you feel it slighted yours.

With this mindset, my dissatisfaction with the world in general has been increasing exponentially. I am a white, heterosexual male. I am also Christian, born and raised. I believe in separation of "Church and State" and they should never mix. I am closer to Conservative republican than any other current political mindset. I believe in Classical liberalism. I hold rights to be self evident and everyone is an equal. When someone isn't being treated equally I will support them in getting their rights, even if I don't like what they stand for. I believe in the Constitution and everything the Bill of Rights means.

I know I may sound, in the strictest sense of the word, hypocritical here in that I will not support the rights of groups based on inequality and hate, like the KKK and Nazis.

My question is how to find the strength to deal with a cycle of ignorance and hate?

Interesting captcha: Cookie Cutter
 

Skin

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Dec 28, 2011
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Gays get seriously butthurt over every little thing. They go around flashing their gayness, and when people respond negatively, they go rally the troops and start some pathetic protest. Chick-fil-a protests anyone?

On the other hand, what kind of pant shitting retard refuses to sell a "wedding cake" just because the couple is gay? Why not just jack up the prices and have a win, win no matter what. When your country goes and bombs the shit out of another country, do you just stop paying taxes and say "I morally disagree with what my money is going towards"?
 

Tyrel Arington

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Mar 6, 2012
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The example above is fictional as far as I know, but it shows the point I was attempting to make. I feel if the prices were simply raised, it would only serve to completely ignore the rights of the couple as they were different. That would be wrong.

In the example, the gay community protesting the cake store, is basically asking them to ignore the owner's moral and civil rights to Freedom of Religion, the First Amendment. I think asking the Gay couple to respect the rights of the Store owners isn't out of place, as offering the service of Wedding Cake would make them compromise their Religious Freedom.
 

Hagi

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Doesn't that Gay community also have the right to protest for whatever matters they deem worthy of protest?

I mean they're not going in there and forcing the cake store to sell them wedding cakes at gun-point.

They're just exercising their right to free speech and protest, just like that cake store owner is exercising his rights.

I just don't really see anything wrong with your example.

What exactly do you wish to be changed?

Should protesting be forbidden for matters you personally don't find worthy of protest?
 

Neonit

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Dec 24, 2008
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the right to protest against anything is one of core foundation of democracy. you take away that and all illusion of democracy disappears.

how to solve the cycle of hate? how about "i dont agree with them, but frankly i dont give a damn - its none of my business" - it does not influence you in any way.

and as to the example - that businessmen has just lost a sale while displaying his personal beliefs.
the gay guys were protesting to display their belief.
how in satans glorious name GUN shop got involved i have no idea.

so as far as i am concerned, two parties did what they believe was right (whenever thats true, thats a different discussion) and the third party just decided to join on a fight.

which just reminds me of hooligans joining hands with old religious ladies because there was a chance of fight happening. (it was funny though)
 

Eclipse Dragon

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Jan 23, 2009
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Well, I can understand why the gay couple was angry, if everyone else can buy a wedding cake, why shouldn't they be able to? Because they're gay. If there's no law within the state that specifically says these cake stores can't sell wedding cakes to gay couples than the cake owners are discriminating.
The middle ground comes when the cake owners are part of a religion that doesn't believe in gay marriage (assuming that's what the gay couple is buying the wedding cake for) We have a right to be treated the same as everyone else, but we also have a right to practice our religions and act according to our beliefs, and the two often clash.

But this topic isn't about gay rights or the cake sellers right to withhold sale of wedding cakes to gay couples (As you stated it's a fictional story only for example purposes), but such incidences upset you? It makes sense you would be upset by seeing these conflicts over and over and over and over again.

Thinking to much about a problem can make a person tired. The only advice I can give you is to pick and choose which situations you care the most about. I know it sounds cold, but if you worry about everything you won't be happy. Also, I try to find the silver lining in things and sometimes that make's me feel a little better.
 

Tyrel Arington

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Mar 6, 2012
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Hagi said:
Doesn't that Gay community also have the right to protest for whatever matters they deem worthy of protest?

I mean they're not going in there and forcing the cake store to sell them wedding cakes at gun-point.

They're just exercising their right to free speech and protest, just like that cake store owner is exercising his rights.

I just don't really see anything wrong with your example.

What exactly do you wish to be changed?

Should protesting be forbidden for matters you personally don't find worthy of protest?
From a legal stand point everyone is correctly exercising their rights. My point I am trying to make is: Is it right for one group to ask an other group to change their core valves. I don't believe that is a question that can be answered for every situation.

neonit said:
the right to protest against anything is one of core foundation of democracy. you take away that and all illusion of democracy disappears.

how to solve the cycle of hate? how about "i dont agree with them, but frankly i dont give a damn - its none of my business" - it does not influence you in any way.

and as to the example - that businessmen has just lost a sale while displaying his personal beliefs.
the gay guys were protesting to display their belief.
how in satans glorious name GUN shop got involved i have no idea.

so as far as i am concerned, two parties did what they believe was right (whenever thats true, thats a different discussion) and the third party just decided to join on a fight.

which just reminds me of hooligans joining hands with old religious ladies because there was a chance of fight happening. (it was funny though)
My reason for having this discussion is I am tired of watching people protest and protest, but rarely get into a civil discourse where we could redefine what the term Tolerance means. I am not saying you should accept someone's way of life, but respect it. In the above example, the gay protest doesn't respect the shop owners way of life, where as the shop owner made every effort to accommodate them within his own beliefs. The Gun club didn't respect the gay protest.

Eclpsedragon said:
Well, I can understand why the gay couple was angry, if everyone else can buy a wedding cake, why shouldn't they be able to? Because they're gay. If there's no law within the state that specifically says these cake stores can't sell wedding cakes to gay couples than the cake owners are discriminating.
The middle ground comes when the cake owners are part of a religion that doesn't believe in gay marriage (assuming that's what the gay couple is buying the wedding cake for) We have a right to be treated the same as everyone else, but we also have a right to practice our religions and act according to our beliefs, and the two often clash.

But this topic isn't about gay rights or the cake sellers right to withhold sale of wedding cakes to gay couples (As you stated it's a fictional story only for example purposes), but such incidences upset you? It makes sense you would be upset by seeing these conflicts over and over and over and over again.

Thinking to much about a problem can make a person tired. The only advice I can give you is to pick and choose which situations you care the most about. I know it sounds cold, but if you worry about everything you won't be happy. Also, I try to find the silver lining in things and sometimes that make's me feel a little better.
Thank you, I believe so far your response has understood the point I was attempting to make. What I care is human civil rights. I have been trying to change some mindsets of people by talking about this. I am not wanting to debate legality as I think that is a red herring that distracts us. I am focusing on a mindset of developing and fostering respect for fellow human beings.

Devoneaux said:
Okay I don't think you really understand the laws of our country, or how it relates to businesses.

In this example: The store owner has a right to refuse service to anyone for whatever reason. On the flip side, the community at large has a right to protest this refusal if they feel it is unjust. As for how the first amendment ties into this? The first amendment grants you the right to say what you want, not to be protected from the things you say. Getting your ass beat because you went up to a group of black men and called them all N-ers is not censorship.
No, I don't understand most of the laws of our country. I only understand them on a basic level. I am not saying that I couldn't, I just haven't made the time to. I get that everyone within my example has their complete legal freedom to do what they are doing exactly. That is the point here. I am asking how this it might be improved. I am not claiming to be an expert on anything. I only only taken one class on politics and it was more on political behavior. I am merely a psychology student who thinks in philosophical terms. I just want to see communication begin so this point of our civil right development can move to the next step.

In world news, a situation similar to my example has happened, I just hadn't read the article when I originally started this thread.

http://www.examiner.com/article/colorado-baker-target-of-gay-protest-for-not-baking-wedding-cake
 

Fappy

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Just do what I do. Laugh at everyone because no one is right and everyone is wrong. Reading Facebook status' is great for this. You don't even need to feel any kind of superiority, it's okay to admit you are just as inept as everyone else. The difference is... you are cognizant of that fact. It's a warm humbling feeling.

:D
 

Fappy

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Buretsu said:
Why should one respect hatred and intolerance? You said yourself that you don't respect the rights of groups like the KKK, who are intolerant of blacks, so why do you respect the rights of groups like Christians, who are intolerant of gays?
This is a bit nitpicky but do keep in mind that there are in fact Christian groups that support gay marriage.
 

ReadyAmyFire

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Not sure how it is elsewhere, but were I homosexual the first thing I would complain about is how expensive everything is in gay clubs. It's like £10 entry and the drinks are twice the price of straight clubs. I went to a gay restaurant the other day and was charged £11 for a fucking cheeseburger, the place next door does them for £3.

Strikes me as blatant cashing in on the sense of self-affirmation people get from going to such places, and how surprisingly willing they are to let themselves get shafted like that (Pun very intended).
 

Susan Arendt

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People have the right to be offensive. People also have the right to be offended. If folks remembered that simple truth, it would be a lot easier to get along.

In the fictional example, the store owners have the right to refuse service to whomever they choose, for whatever reason they choose. Customers have the right to find their reasons offensive and not shop there. And that's basically that. It makes good business sense to sell to everyone that has their cash out, but it's up to the shop owner to make the final decision.

At some point, we apparently arrived at two different notions - the first is that the world must see everything my way, and the second is that I should never be uncomfortable/uneasy/unhappy. Both notions are bollocks, of course, but the strife of people butting up against those beliefs is what causes a lot of anger, I think.
 

Tyrel Arington

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Buretsu said:
When those core values include hatred and discrimination, who says they should not be changed? Would you respect another baker's right to declare that Christians are an abomination and refuse to sell them a product?
That situation isn't that dissimilar from what I proposed. Except that it isn't a blanket refusal of service just a refusal of a type of service. I could completely accept a store like the you propose refusing to make a cake for a christian based event, but not refusing all service.

Buretsu said:
Why should one respect hatred and intolerance? You said yourself that you don't respect the rights of groups like the KKK, who are intolerant of blacks, so why do you respect the rights of groups like Christians, who are intolerant of gays?
I never said that I don't respect them. I don't support them, there is a difference. Respect, in this situation, is about accepting that other choose their lifestyle for what it is, especially when you don't agree with it.

Buretsu said:
Respect that includes the respect for one's right to discriminate, apparently.
At times it does seem like that, however in order for us to get along we have to accept that not everyone will accept our lifestyles. When it comes in conflict at a core legal value like freedom of Religion. I don't feel we can ask them to comprise their core beliefs when they are remaining respectful up to the point of conflict.
 

Aris Khandr

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The hypothetical cake store has every right to sell or not sell to whomever they like. And the hypothetical community has every right to go out of their way to make sure everyone knows that said hypothetical cake store is run by bigots. That's freedom. "Freedom" doesn't mean "I don't face consequences for my choices", it means that you're free to make those choices, even if you probably shouldn't.

If you don't want your store to get a reputation for discriminating, then don't discriminate.
 

Kinguendo

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Skin said:
Gays get seriously butthurt over every little thing. They go around flashing their gayness, and when people respond negatively, they go rally the troops and start some pathetic protest. Chick-fil-a protests anyone?

On the other hand, what kind of pant shitting retard refuses to sell a "wedding cake" just because the couple is gay? Why not just jack up the prices and have a win, win no matter what. When your country goes and bombs the shit out of another country, do you just stop paying taxes and say "I morally disagree with what my money is going towards"?
"Flashing their gayness"? Do you mean... existing?

And Chick-fil-a are a hateful group funding anti-gay groups, wouldnt you dislike an organization that picked you out of a crowd and told you to fuck off AND then they fund multiple groups that are anti-you? Would you just sit twiddling your thumbs saying "Well, they make chicken that isnt the worst soooo... its okay that they oppose my very existance."?
 

joonsk

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Feb 26, 2011
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I disagree with the OP's example. The cake store has the right to think that gay poeple may not marry, but you can't deny your service to them because of that.

Take this for example: what if I would own a music shop, and somebody stepped in my store and asked for a cd of a band I despise. I wouldn't stop him from buying the album! would you?