Guild Wars 2: On the path to success.
- Thread starter Korten12
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The reason I'm weary of guild wars is that it never seemed like an MMO. It always seemed that the entire game never seemed too multiplayer oriented, as the only places with all the other characters is in PVP and cities. It may circumvent stuff like spawn camping and griefing but it also makes the world almost completely empty. Hopefully a balance can be struck but all the hype I've heard for it is all about you, you and only you. I wanna see how the game handles social matters and how well classes work together, with some incentive to play with some other people.
Well GW was accutaly not an MMO though slightly still classified as one, it was a COOP RPG. Guild Wars 2 is an MMORPG that plans to get rid of grind, quests, and give more Role-playing elements to MMORPGs.Spencer Petersen said:
When creating a character, you answer a bunch of questions that determins your backstory and personal story. This Personal story is YOUR story, your actions during it will effect your story. Such as if you don't save someone they wont be there later on but if you do save them they will be their later on in the story, whether or not its good or bad. This is the part of the game that is instanced like Guild Wars 1 but then their is so much more...
Replacing quests, is Dynamic Events which will happen all around the world, random events that can be triggred by players actions. Such as if a town gets attack by monsters and you decided to just watch it and not help, the town will burn and no longer be around, but if you save the town it will exist and another event will trigger. Going back to watching the town, if the town burns you will get a dynamic event to re-take or build that town again.
No longer will you go around doing quests that don't effect the world and are just trivial and boring acts that never change. During all of this, you are online, you will see players take part in these events. An event that is probably going to require a lot of players is such a army is not stopped by players, the army will conquor the area and slowly spread its reach and players will need to stop it.
Their is no kill stealing and everyone killing bosses for loot. No, everyone gets the same exp so that ppl are more helpful when someone saves them. You also get the same loot but this game isn't bounded by armor. If you ever played Phantasy Star, it is like that but if you haven't. It is basicaly you have a set clothes that you design and then you get armor but it doesn't change your look. So no longer will you get better armor that looks dumb, everyone will have their own look.
Combat will be fun and fresh, you can dodge roll out of the way in combat, swim and jump this time around, and players will be able to combine attacks. A mage summons a fire wall, archers then can shoot arrows through the wall and they will light on fire. This can also be done with many other skills allowing for better teamwork. Grinding wont also be an issue becuase you wont ever get quests telling you kill 10 enimies and once down told to kill more, exp rates don't change often and neither does the required amount to level. This gives players a feel that everytime they play they are getting further.
This game also doesn't have the normal holy trinity. Their is no dedicated healer but instead a support class to fill in. This creates for better gameplay as you wont need a healer in pvp and pve or you will die. They will take everything fun about being a healer and improve upon it without making the healer just sit their and wait for a red bar to go low and then click to heal. Dying now also has a new look, it is a lot like borderlands, when you die, you go into a fight for your life stage with skills that you can use while you are on your back. If you can kill an enemy during this time you will revive. Also if their is no enimies around any player can revive you. Though die to often and the time to revive will increase. (I assume the less you die it goes down.)
Their is just so much more this game then I can mention. Go to the Guild Wars 2 site at guildwars2.com to see the rest of the info it is truly amazing.
I will raise the stakes even more by saying that it is all that, and more open to everyone, due to it being in Java and requiring relatively small amounts of computing power to run properly.Polock said:
... I will pull someone's WoW fanboy trigger, or their RS hate trigger with that.
I'm going to play devils advocate here to try and juice some more discussion.
Anyway, I'm not saying this game has no potential. Competition is necessary for innovation in the industry. But what I'm saying is don't be surprised if the game changes a lot in BETA. Play testing will show many of the flaws in the game, and sometimes the only cure is a complete shit-ectomy.
(Longest post on the Escapist?)
The problem I have with origin stories is, while you are a bit more individualized, it also sets you up in the wrong mindset. A coop RPG or MMO should be about teamwork and when you are going through your story as the main character it starts to turn the less savory people into, for lack of a better term, gibbering twat-donkeys. When you are the main character, all your allies becomes your sidekicks. People get the idea that the game is all about them, and they act accordingly. Also, while this sounds great on paper, you have to take into account the human effect. Anything that humans get involved in usually devolves into slapstick. (Take the games "trying" to be most serious Halo and COD, and they usually turn into joke reels and machinima on the internet). If a game tries too hard to be serious then that itself becomes the joke. Also, with characters who you save coming back, because they aren't going to be there for everyone the impact they bring really cant be that huge or else it will get unfair really fast.
Dynamic events have been tried before in an MMO, and it tanked (see: Tabula Rasa). The problem originated due to the annoyance factor it caused. If you have to keep cleaning up invading centaurs or giant worms then it basically becomes a chore you have to do to keep your setup the way it is. MMO's are timeless because a hero's life in an MMO would be very boring day-to-day. Also, if these events aren't instanced then the example you gave really doesn't work. If 99.9999% of the players watch the town burn, but one person saves it, then that town is saved, regardless of the others choices. If saving the town is a group effort, then it will become an exercise in herding cats. The only other way it could work is if you have the choice to attack or defend, which comes across as just a faction choice and pvp arena. If these choices are instanced then really again its just a single player RPG experience (but with coop capabilities).
If you can choose how you look at the get go then really there isn't as much incentive to get that new armor. It just seemed that maybe a better option would be to have the armors in the game fit together in a non-clashing style. And although everyone can have their own look, there are definitely going to be some common trends... Also, with the shared experience option wouldn't that allow someone to just follow you all night shooting an arrow into everything you hit just to leech xp? You may not lose anything but you would probably feel ripped off in that situation, especially if it proves the most effective way of leveling at lower levels.
Ahh, the infamous kill x of monster x cliche. Really the system in Guild Wars is just that repackaged. If a quest tell you to clear the nearby field of worms so a farmer can replant his crops, and there happens to be 10 worms, isn't it the exact same thing? It may seem new and revolutionary but its just a new icing over the same cake. Also, say for example the worms disappear or move when you finish the quest, what if you needed something in particular that the worms had a higher chance or even the only chance of dropping, wouldn't that suck? Also, If the xp rates don't change then whats going to stop you from sitting in a corner killing rats over and over again to get to the highest level? Xp rates change to get you out and exploring the world, and making them stay the same seems to only encourage you to find a little grindy hole and sit your ass down. And as far as combat goes if attacking and crit/hit chances are numerical systems then you can bet the whole rolling system is not going to set the world on fire. For both of them to exist in one world they need to follow the same rule set, which turns rolling into a combat ability just the same as healing or attacking.
The holy trinity of RPG has been around much longer than any MMO. Hell, it probably goes back to before games existed (LOTR anyone?). The R on RPG is for Role after all, and you cant fill a role unless you specialize for it in some manner. If a support class with healing can take and deal damage just as effectively as any other class then suddenly why would you want to be anything else? Also when the most challenging content appears the need for someone entirely specialized in healing will become evident, and you can quote me on that. If "watching for bars to turn red" never happens, then where is the difficulty? If players can stay alive without healing, then how is it even necessary? The only other option is one hit kills, and that's even worse. Players need to able to fill a role, and that role doesn't exist if there isn't any detriment for leaving it empty.
Anyway, I'm not saying this game has no potential. Competition is necessary for innovation in the industry. But what I'm saying is don't be surprised if the game changes a lot in BETA. Play testing will show many of the flaws in the game, and sometimes the only cure is a complete shit-ectomy.
(Longest post on the Escapist?)
I just want a good, solid MMORPG that doesn't feel like a WoW clone. That's all I care about.
On another note, Runescape is the best MMO I've ever played (and I've played many). It felt so open-ended. I never ONCE did a quest (since I was only interested in raising my ranging stat and agility as a pure archer), and I still had a grand ol' time.
On another note, Runescape is the best MMO I've ever played (and I've played many). It felt so open-ended. I never ONCE did a quest (since I was only interested in raising my ranging stat and agility as a pure archer), and I still had a grand ol' time.
I think this time I just need to grab as many friends and try to get them into it before I attempt to play. If I can get enough friends to play with me I'll probably love it, that simple.
A RuneScape player, and Zelos as an avatar?Underground Man said:
...Completely off-topic, yeah, but you're awesome.
Please just go to Guildwars2.com you are saying stuff that isn't true and is false.Spencer Petersen said:
http://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/part-one/
http://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/part-two/
http://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/traits-overview/
http://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/
http://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dynamic-events/dynamic-events-overview/
http://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/personal-stories/
http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto
http://www.arena.net/blog/eric-flannum-answers-more-of-your-dynamic-event-questions
http://www.arena.net/blog/colin-johanson-answers-your-dynamic-event-questions
http://www.arena.net/blog/jon-peters-answers-your-first-batch-of-healing-and-death-questions
http://www.arena.net/blog/jon-peters-answers-more-healing-and-death-questions
http://www.arena.net/blog/progression-and-leveling-in-guild-wars-2
http://www.arena.net/blog/personality-in-guild-wars-2
I'll play along.Spencer Petersen said:
First off, viewing instanced zones as a pitfall to the game is conformed MMO thinking. (much like the people I referenced before about not liking the number 20 as a level cap. I will actually go ahead and touch that later.) As for instanced zones making the game world feel "lonely" actually says more about the player than the game. Ironically, the answer to this is to be more social. Find a sociable guild is the best answer. Although, you could also be more social in town, play with friends, or make friends in town. All three of the latter will usually result in you also finding a good sociable guild.
TIP: In guild wars (read any MMO) if you find yourself in a guild that doesn't speak to you or doesn't speak at all, leave the guild and find a new one.
Additionally, I can see why it may feel more lonely as I too in many games have met some cool people while we were both hunting in the same area. Although, on most occassions where I meet people, they often proceed to tell me how I am playing a game/class wrong or something and seem oblivious to how much of a douche they are being and I never hear from them again. Note that this is about 90% of these encounters. But here is the thing, Guild Wars did away with grind really in their first game. Guild Wars 1 is without grind really unless you count farming for items of the day as "grinding" even though it is actually "farming". (Collecting 15/25 of a common drop doesn't constitute as farming to me.)
See, without actual grind you wouldn't have these encounters you have in other games even if guild wars was not instanced. Because even farming (closest thing to grind in the game) makes you run all over the place and not be in 1 area for too long. It is actually a pain to farm and try to type in guild chat. This is why quite a few of us just use mics.
On this point I first want to say that less savory people are twat-donkeys without the need of a personalized story. It isn't able to be proved that this causes this because few games have tried it out. Secondly, the impact of saving charactors is probably more for story purposes which is more for the people that enjoy this type of thing more than giving you an edge over those who didn't. Lastly, I simply just disagree. No counter points, I just don't see this as a valid encompassing view of the big picture.
I will not sit here and say that this idea couldn't fail or even have flaws. However, the current system has flaws in the sense that it has boring, redundant gameplay. I haven't got to play Tabula Rasa or Warhammer Online that supposedly does these as well. I don't know much about how they were executed in either game. But this is an idea that has only been tried a few times and I am sure Arenanet is aware of the times it has been done and they took their own view as to what would make it work the best they could. I hope they get it right personally, but I am aware of how this may not work. I will wait and see before saying it is impossible because it has failed a couple times.
No incentive to get the new armor? Having a better armor rating isn't incentive? I am not going to wear crap armor that looks cool over good armor that makes me look like a flamboyant douchebag if those are my only 2 options. I will choose to look like a flamboyant douchebag as I pwn everyone and make it that much more fun.
Customized appearance ALWAYS has trends. It's just like fashion in reality in that sense. I am so sick of those shirts in real life with the emblem/logo on the left/right side of the shirt that looks like the ink spilled out of the screen press while they were putting the image on the shirt. They are everywhere here in the midwest of the united states. In CoH you know how many "wolverines" I basically saw despite the fact that it had a HUGE scope of customization? Some people are not creative and this will bleed through no matter what.
As for the shared experience, remember about the party system in guild wars. If they are not in your party they cannot do this. If they are in your party and do this, you can kick them/leave if it bothers you but I would assume you would know going into that situation.
Well, perfection is unobtainable but one can always strive to make things better. There is nothing to stop you from hiding in a corner killing rats. Although, I bet the loot sucks. There are similar strategies people use to get the survivor title in the original GW. (Reach max exp 20 without dying once - it isn't easy even if you "kill rats") However, say at level 1 you kill a rat and it gives 25 xp. If you kill the same level rat at level 2, you will only get 15xp. And while this may seem like no big deal it will become one at around level 12 when you have to go hunt level 8 stuff that is in a zone with level 15 stuff that aggro. You will have to go hunt bigger baddies to get your experience. Additionally, this plays into the anti-social person playing an MMO. Is someone really gonna sit around and kill "rats" the whole game and deprive themselves of the real content everyone else is interested in?
I think it is an evolution we are seeing. See, the holy trinity of "role" definement is indeed important in games like D&D where campaigns are actually built around parties. But sadly, Mr. Anti-social has made himself known in the MMO community. Some developers are not ignoring him. I personally, don't see a huge problem with it as I hate to break it to that guy but running solo on an MMO means you will be forfeiting some content. Every MMO offers raids. That said, healing itself in the game isn't being removed. Just slasses dedicated soley to healing. I am thinking the pilosophy is that a team with the ability to heal on a small scale = 1 healer. This forces tactics to be alot more crucial as lets face it, spam "heal all full" is not good tactical gameplay.
Now, I am going to step into the level 20 cap if anyone is still reading. This is alone like a great metaphor with what arenanet felt was more important for the game. This is a content orientated game. Most of this game will be played at level 20. However, your charactor will be rebuilt and modified throughout the entire game. Your charactor isn't defined by the number floating above your head but by the content you have explored and te game knowledge you have acquired. The system in play here is balance and Guild Wars achieves balance more than any other MMO out there. This comes to the player by making an arbitrary number mean nothing. So you are level 20, everyone is level 20. Not a big deal.
I have always stated that MMOs need to be designed from the ground up by assuming everyone on the server is max level. Not doing this is how you end up with a game that people complain about lack of end game content. Guild Wars did it and I love them for it. Guild Wars set out to break all the molds people ***** about MMOs. But then when they play guild wars they ***** that they broke the mold.
I won't allow myself to see GW2 as anything more than another game that has enormous potential but may fall through. I know I am going to get it regardless, but I am expecting the worst that way if it delivers, I will be exstatic. Even if they deliver on half of their promises this will be a good MMO. If they deliver on most or all thi will easily be the best MMO to date IMO. I can't help getting excited over news for it. Especially, when I hear the devs say "It'll be done it's done." Arenanet is an ideal game company in my eyes.
Well this is a bit unsurprising since Guild Wars is considered the best non fee paying type MMO thing even though it is technically not a MMO. Good to see that we still have GW2 inofrmation flowing into this site. You would think it'd be me giving the info as I am gw founder but I think I have posted like 1 info update.
I'm one of those people, but that's not what I mean when I say it feels lonely (though that isn't the word I'd use).Savagezion said:
Yathzee really explains it properly; I don't feel like interacting with people in MMO's all that much, but the tons of people are more like a part of the decor. I like the bustling (and crazy) atmosphere of towns filled with people, I like seeing other people in the wilderness doing their own thing. Guild Wars 1 at least didn't have a lot of that, so I never fancied it that much.
It also, to me, cancels out one of the most important things I want from an online RPG; a big-ass persistent world I can explore. When I look at, say, WoW or LotRO's worldmap it's actually a proper representation of the ingame world; you can actually follow that river aaaall the way up to it's source as it says on the map. LotRO has that a bit less, but the idea is still present.
Now what I heard about Guild Wars 2 though is that it does have those things, at least the first from what I've heard. Is that true?
Lots of the discussion is already tied up and from looking at arguments there is nothing really new that I would add to them.Korten12 said:
That part.Korten12 said:
Its why i dont beleive in hype. Its not even done, and some people are already all over it. Sure it sounds nice, but what they say, what they do and what they deliver are usually very different.
Lets just wait and see what is actually done. If they deliver as promised (especially that invasion/subbtle quest system imho) that will be interesting.
'Twad said:
Well thats the funny part, so many ppl were suprised it was only in that stage becuase it felt as if it was already going to be shipped soon. So if thats any indication we can only imagine how good it shall look when its ready to be shipped.
It also was a pleasent suprise that many ppl said that they didn't go back on their word. In the demo's of the game they showed off how the dynamic events worked and everyone said they worked extreamly well.
