Chibz said:
Glademaster said:
I'm a little curious as to what makes the PvP part of MMOs and COs not competitive. Especially when some games actually hold monthly tournaments and don't rely on gear in high level PvP.
The incredibly low skill cap. Look at WoW for example. Almost everything is handled by stats. That and the random chance to hit, random damage. Hell, look at the leveling up process. Almost everything while leveling up is random.
Raids: Random drops too! Randomness has thoroughly tainted the game.
Skill cap is very important for a competitive game. It's why you have competitive chess, but no competitive go fish. The problem is that when character skill means more than player skill it really damages the credibility of the tournament. Randomness in a game also vastly lowers the skill cap.
Being distictly non-competitive with a very low skill cap doesn't make it
bad. It just means the game is a more easy-going strictly for-fun type of game.
Glademaster said:
If you really don't like that type of gameplay then don't play it. There are plenty of other games out there that rely solely(or at least 90%) on skill. The fact that you are picking out 1 MMO in a sea of shit shows me you don't really care about having a decent argument. I know WoW is a grind fest which is why I play Guild Wars which is grind optional.
Yes other MMORPG's exist. The problem is that almost every MMORPG is trying to flat-out copy WoW's gameplay & mechanics. There might be some exceptions with less grind, etc. But they still have at least SOME of the flaws I put forward. Then the vast majority of the genre, just WoW in different settings. Bleh.
I am sorry if this will be hard to read I will try space it out as much as possible but I am going to delve into how every class is used in Guild Wars PvP towards the end.
Ok lets use the example I used Guild Wars. Right now if want to get really technical and a tad bit anal about it Guild Wars is not a MMORPG it is a CORPG. Although people say this because it is not instanced. In Guild Wars where it comes to PvP pretty much nothing is random. Well except your team mates in Random Arenas and skills in the Codex Arena. Although that is the point of those areas to mix things up.
As soon as you make a PvP character you are level 20(highest level), all 200 attribute points, max armour with a variety of skins and max damage weapons. As I said you still have to unlock skills, weapon mods, Runes and insignias but that is only if you are starting the game from scratch. You still have to earn stuff. They can't give you everything at the start. All you have to do to unlock this is earn Balthazar faction which you get from playing PvP. Even at that if you have done PvP beforehand you probably have most of the stuff unlocked anyway from identifying armour and buying skills(once a skill is bought or capped once it is unlocked to buy[PvE] or use[PvP] for all characters on that account{except elite skills still need to cap those for PvE}). You are given a whole skill bar with 1 elite to start with.
Sorry for that mouthful. There are also areas where you can farm a certain amount of Balthazar faction a day off computer opponent. This is a great way to practise and have a reliable way to earn faction and beef up your character. Although the runes don't really that add much since they are so accessible. There is a certain gear aspect but the barrier to entry is really low.
With the gear thing out of the way I'd like to talk about the skill cap in Guild Wars and types of PvP. If you want you can skip down to the GvG and HA paragraph as that is where I will discuss this in detail. I will however, mention the other PvP types. Now I don't know what you about Guild Wars but in it you are only allowed to use 8 skills and they are chosen before going into an instance. Only 1 can be elite.
The standard PvP is RA(Random Arenas) which gives you a random 3 people to play with against a random 4. So 4v4. While this area isn't entirely skill less it has a really low barrier to entry so it not very coordinated and the team with a monk or healer usually wins. So RA not very competitive.
Next standard or lower level one is AB(Alliance Battles) these are 12v12. You get three other people and get put with 2 other random teams. The objective is to get 500 points by holding shrines or killing. Kinda chaotic and still not competitive.
Next is Codex Arena. I don't have much experience here. Essentially it is a 4v4. You get another 3 people only 1 of each profession and get a certain skill choice each day. Don't worry you don't need the skills unlocked they are free to use.
Now we are on to "real" PvP HA(Heroes Ascent) and GvG(Guild v Guild). I will talk about GvG. In these your ability to use your profession and given role is paramount. It is not just about your armour or the 8 skills you have. First I'll talk about frontline. If you are a "Caller"(usually a Shock Axe build or something to similar effect). You must be able to call a target but not make it obvious and constantly make sure everyone is ready for the spike. For example all warriors must have full adrenaline. As a Hammer Warrior you must be able to 1/4 knock with >80% accuracy(if you want I can explain this). If you can't do this your character isn't worth shit and you are dragging your team down. If you are a Dervish you need to harass backline and get as many people with your scythe attacks as you can. You can have Assassins but no one uses them for GvG.
In the midline we have depending on the build Elementalists(were rare when I did GvG), Rangers, Mesmers, Necromancers and Paragons(also rare when I did GvG). As a caster of any type you need to pulse you spells to not make them obvious. If you do chain cast the interrupter on the other team will rape your skill bar and shut you down. Elementalists need to spread pressure. Whether this is degen, melee hate, snares, etc. Necros are usually used in niche spike builds or hex and disease pressure. For the latter same story. For the former this requires impeccable sync timing with the other Necros for Blood Magic Spikes while maintaining your support role.
Paragons need to keep up their shouts to buff the party and provide as much support as they can. Rangers need to keep applying pressure via poison and interrupts. Although they can serve a spike capacity as well. Rangers change to suit whatever role they need to fill. Their interrupts require them to get close to enemies to reduce arrow flight time without them over extending out of their monks casting range which is hard in certain Guild Halls.
Mesmers need to make sure that they debuff at the right time. If they don't they may have wasted a spell that could of made a spike viable. They also have to use their energy denial properly to keep the monks under pressure. As well as be able to use interrupts. One thing all interrupters must know is skill cooldown times and cast time so to know when to try and predict when a skill will be used.
The midline must do all this while kiting from melee pressure from the other team. The back line must do this to.
Now to talk about the Back line. This consists of a Protection and Healer monk or 2 Hybrids a flag runner which is either a Monk, a Ritualist or an Elementalist. Although Rangers can fill this capacity. As a Protection Monk you need to be aware of the field of battle and predict when the other team is going to try and spike. If you can't your team will fall to pieces. You can't red bar like a Healing monk can. Once again you need to spread out spell use. Healing monks have to try and keep everyone's health bars nice and high without wasting energy or skills incase it is needed to heal up spike damage. If the Healer or Protection monk get shut down via interrupts your team is dead in the water.
The runner does exactly what it says. It needs to run and grab the flag and be ready to place it on the stand and obelisk. This must be done to give a moral boost. Athough before placing your flag you need to kill the enemy flagger or knock them down and return their flag. To stop flaggers from placing flags you need to effectively body block them and try knock them down or use snares. The flagger is also needed to assist in either spikes or healing(sometimes both) when possible.
Personally I think that is a lot of skills to know just for one game type in one game without even getting in how to use certain skills and builds properly. All these skills and ow to use a profession have nothing to do with your gear or the skills on you skill bar.
