Haitian Earthquake

[Revnak]

In a terrible turn of events, Haiti, the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere, has been struck by another devastating earthquake. This is only a few months after the assassination of their president, which came after months of protests against him for seeking another term as well as against his administration and its connections to the US in general. This is also in the wake of the previous devastating earthquake which struck the country, which was seized by western NGOs such as the Clinton Foundation to profit off of their misery under the guise of “humanitarian effort,” an opportunity they had due to destabilization efforts by the US since the 90’s when Haiti overthrew the brutal US backed dictators Papa Doc and Baby Doc. Undoubtedly the same vulture like behavior will happen again.
Personally, I think we should give the Haitian people control of the entire GDP of France and most of the US, as the only possible repayment for centuries of abuse and human misery. Now would be an excellent opportunity to ask your local representatives why, in the wake of all these crimes, France and the WTO are allowed to demand Haiti continue to make payments on their “debts.”

 

[Trunkage]

I'm trying to recall the exact events, but I believe it was Obama who used the Columbian and Honduran votes on the OAS to delete Hatians vote, restirctint their economy and automony and relegating them further down the totem pole

All this for having the temerity to vote on a president the US didn't like.

(It could have been Trump who did that but all US presidents have been real shitty to Haiti. I can't remember which year it was now)

 

[Agema]

Personally, I think we should give the Haitian people control of the entire GDP of France and most of the US, as the only possible repayment for centuries of abuse and human misery. Now would be an excellent opportunity to ask your local representatives why, in the wake of all these crimes, France and the WTO are allowed to demand Haiti continue to make payments on their “debts.”

I'm not sure what you mean by the WTO - you might mean the World Bank / IMF; the World Bank erased Haiti's debt to it back in about 2010. Likewise, France axed a big chunk of debt to Haiti owed it a few years ago (if not necessarily all). I'm not actually sure who Haiti owes money to currently, but it might not much be the World Bank and France.

As for continuing payments, it's a much wider issue than the WTO and France. On might note that private creditors forced Argentina into repayments via a New York court: Argentina could theoretically have ignored it, if it were prepared to forego access to the US financial markets... and obviously that's pretty much a non-starter.

 

[Hawki]

I'm not sure what you mean by the WTO - you might mean the World Bank / IMF; the World Bank erased Haiti's debt to it back in about 2010. Likewise, France axed a big chunk of debt to Haiti owed it a few years ago (if not necessarily all). I'm not actually sure who Haiti owes money to currently, but it might not much be the World Bank and France.

Haiti finished paying its debt to France in 1947, after France reduced a sizable portion of it. In 2019, Haiti's debt was 15% of its GDP. Debt by itself doesn't explain it.

Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

Why the big divergence?

noahpinion.substack.com

It's an interesting read as to why Haiti stagnated while the Dominican Republic soared in the later half of the 20th century.

 

[Revnak]

Haiti finished paying its debt to France in 1947, after France reduced a sizable portion of it. In 2019, Haiti's debt was 15% of its GDP. Debt by itself doesn't explain it.

Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

Why the big divergence?

noahpinion.substack.com

It's an interesting read as to why Haiti stagnated while the Dominican Republic soared in the later half of the 20th century.

The two were not actually that similar in terms of standard of living at that point and Noah Smith is a fucking clown.

 

[Revnak]

I'm not sure what you mean by the WTO - you might mean the World Bank / IMF; the World Bank erased Haiti's debt to it back in about 2010. Likewise, France axed a big chunk of debt to Haiti owed it a few years ago (if not necessarily all). I'm not actually sure who Haiti owes money to currently, but it might not much be the World Bank and France.

As for continuing payments, it's a much wider issue than the WTO and France. On might note that private creditors forced Argentina into repayments via a New York court: Argentina could theoretically have ignored it, if it were prepared to forego access to the US financial markets... and obviously that's pretty much a non-starter.

Looking at it in detail most of that debt was paid off through other loans from various other entities (often US banks) and even the world bank debt cancellation ultimately only cut into a fraction of that debt. Realistically, it’s the same debt dragged out over generations but repackaged to make France and the US feel better.

 

[Agema]

Haiti finished paying its debt to France in 1947, after France reduced a sizable portion of it. In 2019, Haiti's debt was 15% of its GDP. Debt by itself doesn't explain it.

No, Haiti finished paying France back debts incurred in the 19th century in 1947. More strictly, when Haiti became the first country to have a successful slave revolt and throw out their colonial masters, France came along a bit later and threatened to kick the shit out of it unless Haiti paid France a ton of money in recompense for Frenchmen losing their plantations and stuff - extortion, basically. Haiti, perhaps unsurprisingly, caved. However, Haiti obviously ended up borrowing plenty of money after that over the years - some of it from France. Thus it had a new debt to France to pay off.

Debt is a problem if it cannot be paid, no matter how big it is. My guess is that the interest rates for Haiti to borrow are very high, unless some bodies like the IMF are prepared to give it discounted rates. Haiti is also a pretty wrecked country requiring substantial expenditure with a very weak central administration and a very poor population, so it has a significant problem raising revenue.

Looking at it in detail most of that debt was paid off through other loans from various other entities (often US banks) and even the world bank debt cancellation ultimately only cut into a fraction of that debt. Realistically, it’s the same debt dragged out over generations but repackaged to make France and the US feel better.

However it was financed, the practical reality is that a lot of debts came off Haiti's books. I stress I do not say this to justify refusing to write off the rest of it. Haiti's debt is chickenfeed to the West. It'd be chickenfeed to numerous individual US citizens.

 

[Hawki]

The two were not actually that similar in terms of standard of living at that point and Noah Smith is a fucking clown.

That's life expectancy - that isn't the be all and end all of standard of living. Just like debt isn't the be all and end all of Haiti's woes.

Also, what's weird is that the divergence between Haiti and the DR is actually mirrored by numerous other Caribbean countries:

GDP per capita

This data is adjusted for inflation and for differences in living costs between countries.

ourworldindata.org

Haiti's stagnated, while numerous other countries have improved since the mid 20th century.

No, Haiti finished paying France back debts incurred in the 19th century in 1947. More strictly, when Haiti became the first country to have a successful slave revolt and throw out their colonial masters, France came along a bit later and threatened to kick the shit out of it unless Haiti paid France a ton of money in recompense for Frenchmen losing their plantations and stuff - extortion, basically. Haiti, perhaps unsurprisingly, caved. However, Haiti obviously ended up borrowing plenty of money after that over the years - some of it from France. Thus it had a new debt to France to pay off.

Yes, I know that 1947 refers to the original debt, of course Haiti would still have debt beyond that point. Also, I'll raise you the Mamluk Rebellion for successful slave revolts, but that's another matter.

Debt is a problem if it cannot be paid, no matter how big it is. My guess is that the interest rates for Haiti to borrow are very high, unless some bodies like the IMF are prepared to give it discounted rates. Haiti is also a pretty wrecked country requiring substantial expenditure with a very weak central administration and a very poor population, so it has a significant problem raising revenue.

If it can't be paid, yes, but again, 15% of GDP (fairly low), of a country that's ranked in the top 15 most corrupt countries in the world. Personally, I think it would be a good idea for France to repay Haiti (apparently it comes to 21 billion - that would easily be payable over a period of time), but that isn't going to solve much, if anything. Not without strengthening Haiti's institutions for starters.

As for the 'other France debt,' it was apparently cancelled in 2010 (77 million) - maybe Haiti's borrowed more from France since then, but the post-47 debt was waived. So the idea that Haiti is poor solely due to debt doesn't hold up.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

As for the 'other France debt,' it was apparently cancelled in 2010 (77 million) - maybe Haiti's borrowed more from France since then, but the post-47 debt was waived. So the idea that Haiti is poor solely due to debt doesn't hold up.

I mean, there's also the bit where they'll get hit with a major disaster, big aid organizations (red cross, Clinton foundation, et all) will vacuum up huge amounts of aid money, then build like 7 houses and spread a waterborne illness and call it good.

 

[Revnak]

That's life expectancy - that isn't the be all and end all of standard of living. Just like debt isn't the be all and end all of Haiti's woes.

Also, what's weird is that the divergence between Haiti and the DR is actually mirrored by numerous other Caribbean countries:

GDP per capita

This data is adjusted for inflation and for differences in living costs between countries.

ourworldindata.org

Haiti's stagnated, while numerous other countries have improved since the mid 20th century.

You do realize that half of that time period Haiti was under the control of US puppets Papa and Baby Doc, whose equivalent to a police force and military was a collection of unpaid militias given the right to plunder and rape so long as they remained loyal? Oh, and Baby Doc fled the country with most of the government’s money after wasting the rest of it on vanities. Then the US occupied the country again, then the US forced Haiti to exile presidential candidates they didn’t like to South Africa, then the earthquake hit, then the US forced Haiti to make sure a candidate whose chief policy was universal public education didn’t win and instead a famous singer with zero administrative experience was made President. That’s the half century you’re talking about. That’s the stuff Noah didn’t bring up because he’s a fucking stooge.

Yes, I know that 1947 refers to the original debt, of course Haiti would still have debt beyond that point. Also, I'll raise you the Mamluk Rebellion for successful slave revolts, but that's another matter.



If it can't be paid, yes, but again, 15% of GDP (fairly low), of a country that's ranked in the top 15 most corrupt countries in the world. Personally, I think it would be a good idea for France to repay Haiti (apparently it comes to 21 billion - that would easily be payable over a period of time), but that isn't going to solve much, if anything. Not without strengthening Haiti's institutions for starters.

As for the 'other France debt,' it was apparently cancelled in 2010 (77 million) - maybe Haiti's borrowed more from France since then, but the post-47 debt was waived. So the idea that Haiti is poor solely due to debt doesn't hold up.

Please look up how much of their debt was actually canceled and the piecemeal way in which it occurred while keeping various private debts intact. Then remember that all of that finally occurred after the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere was hit by an earthquake it had no ability to deal with due to centuries of pillaging, after which the US pillaged the country and smuggled aid money into NGOs like the Clinton Foundation (or the pockets of the previously mentioned pop singer President that HRC hand picked).

 

[Hawki]

You do realize that half of that time period Haiti was under the control of US puppets Papa and Baby Doc, whose equivalent to a police force and military was a collection of unpaid militias given the right to plunder and rape so long as they remained loyal? Oh, and Baby Doc fled the country with most of the government’s money after wasting the rest of it on vanities. Then the US occupied the country again, then the US forced Haiti to exile presidential candidates they didn’t like to South Africa, then the earthquake hit, then the US forced Haiti to make sure a candidate whose chief policy was universal public education didn’t win and instead a famous singer with zero administrative experience was made President. That’s the half century you’re talking about. That’s the stuff Noah didn’t bring up because he’s a fucking stooge.

Hence why I've said more than once that debt doesn't explain it by itself. It could explain Haiti's stagnation to the first half of the 20th century, whereas in the second half, you've got shoddy political institutions coupled with outside interferance. Which isn't unique to Haiti (hence the striking divergence between it and other countries), but an "all of the above" answer does explain it.

Please look up how much of their debt was actually canceled and the piecemeal way in which it occurred while keeping various private debts intact. Then remember that all of that finally occurred after the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere was hit by an earthquake it had no ability to deal with due to centuries of pillaging, after which the US pillaged the country and smuggled aid money into NGOs like the Clinton Foundation (or the pockets of the previously mentioned pop singer President that HRC hand picked).

I did look it up - most of Haiti's debts right now, as far as I can tell, is owed to the IMF, and it's lower now than it was at the start of the 21st century. I'm sure there's private debts involved somewhere, but I don't have access to the ledgers. But various debts have been cancelled as well.

The "debt" thing is a sideshow. Haiti's stagnated regardless of its level of debt. Haiti could lose all its debt today, and it wouldn't change much.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

*sigh* And here I was seeing the title of this thread and thinking it was a moment of empathy for the suffering of other people from Rev. Then I read the OP. I'm surprised at how disappointed I am

 

[CriticalGaming]

From a purely Seismological standpoint, this Earthquake wasn't all that unexpected. In 2010 the Quake near Portou Prince, which was also a magnitude 7, was found to only rupture a small portion of that fault line. This occured on a fault line that seismologists had seen a disturbing level of stress build up before the 2010 quake. IIRC correctly they had issued warnings to officials that a quake would be expected within the next few years. Then that quake happened only months later.

Of course you can't really predict Earthquakes, that's one of the things that makes them so dangerous. The best we can do is look at ground strain and say that it appears reasonable that this area is due for a release of that strain at anytime. Typically they'll predict a X% within the next 10-30 years which for most people is a meaningless prediction and officials never take heed of such things because it's not really reasonable.

After 2010 the fault stress was remeasured and unfortunately they found that the quake had only broke a fairly small section of the fault line, which meant that the surrounding parts of the fault were still locked up and in need of a quake.

Saturday that shifted build up broke and we got that 7.2.

Earthquakes are incredibly fascinating to me. I studied them in college and continue to watch new documentaries whenever new things come out surrounding them.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

From a purely Seismological standpoint, this Earthquake wasn't all that unexpected. In 2010 the Quake near Portou Prince, which was also a magnitude 7, was found to only rupture a small portion of that fault line. This occured on a fault line that seismologists had seen a disturbing level of stress build up before the 2010 quake. IIRC correctly they had issued warnings to officials that a quake would be expected within the next few years. Then that quake happened only months later.

Of course you can't really predict Earthquakes, that's one of the things that makes them so dangerous. The best we can do is look at ground strain and say that it appears reasonable that this area is due for a release of that strain at anytime. Typically they'll predict a X% within the next 10-30 years which for most people is a meaningless prediction and officials never take heed of such things because it's not really reasonable.

After 2010 the fault stress was remeasured and unfortunately they found that the quake had only broke a fairly small section of the fault line, which meant that the surrounding parts of the fault were still locked up and in need of a quake.

Saturday that shifted build up broke and we got that 7.2.

Earthquakes are incredibly fascinating to me. I studied them in college and continue to watch new documentaries whenever new things come out surrounding them.

What's the worst earthquake in recorded history and is there a book about it?

 

[CriticalGaming]

What's the worst earthquake of all time in recorded history and is there a book about it?

Umm that depends on what you call "worst" Earthquake? Do you mean the biggest? Or do you mean ones that killed the most people?

For example, the Japan March 3 2011 quake was a 9.1 planet-shifting monster that caused a Tsunami that did damage around the entire Pacific ocean. However it only killed 18,000 people. The 7.2 in Haiti in 2010 killed 200,000. So a much smaller Earthquake can be far more devastating depending on where it happens.

Chili has had two 9-magnitude Earthquakes since 1964, Japan had 1, Sumtra had the famous boxing day quake which was a 9 and that killed over 500,000 people. And Alaska in 1958 or 1962 I forget exactly had a magnitude 9. This list is EVERY mag 9+ quake we know of since recordings began. Large events like this are very very rare.

As for books, I don't know that any particular event has full books written on them. However if you want to see specific stories and information about a specific earthquake I could certainly link you some good Youtube Videos.

 

[Revnak]

*sigh* And here I was seeing the title of this thread and thinking it was a moment of empathy for the suffering of other people from Rev. Then I read the OP. I'm surprised at how disappointed I am

Yes, clearly my rage at the two centuries of abuse Haiti has faced has nothing to do with empathy. It would be better if I showed empathy the proper way, a Facebook status change and maybe buying a charity single.

 

[Revnak]

Hence why I've said more than once that debt doesn't explain it by itself. It could explain Haiti's stagnation to the first half of the 20th century, whereas in the second half, you've got shoddy political institutions coupled with outside interferance. Which isn't unique to Haiti (hence the striking divergence between it and other countries), but an "all of the above" answer does explain it.



I did look it up - most of Haiti's debts right now, as far as I can tell, is owed to the IMF, and it's lower now than it was at the start of the 21st century. I'm sure there's private debts involved somewhere, but I don't have access to the ledgers. But various debts have been cancelled as well.

The "debt" thing is a sideshow. Haiti's stagnated regardless of its level of debt. Haiti could lose all its debt today, and it wouldn't change much.

Ok, and the issue is the “all of the above” is the fault of the ones enforcing the debt for the exact same reason the debt exists so saying “it’s not just the debt” is like when people point at harsh winter storms caused by global warming as evidence against global warming.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Umm that depends on what you call "worst" Earthquake? Do you mean the biggest? Or do you mean ones that killed the most people?

For example, the Japan March 3 2011 quake was a 9.1 planet-shifting monster that caused a Tsunami that did damage around the entire Pacific ocean. However it only killed 18,000 people. The 7.2 in Haiti in 2010 killed 200,000. So a much smaller Earthquake can be far more devastating depending on where it happens.

Chili has had two 9-magnitude Earthquakes since 1964, Japan had 1, Sumtra had the famous boxing day quake which was a 9 and that killed over 500,000 people. And Alaska in 1958 or 1962 I forget exactly had a magnitude 9. This list is EVERY mag 9+ quake we know of since recordings began. Large events like this are very very rare.

As for books, I don't know that any particular event has full books written on them. However if you want to see specific stories and information about a specific earthquake I could certainly link you some good Youtube Videos.

Oh, yes please.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Ok, and the issue is the “all of the above” is the fault of the ones enforcing the debt for the exact same reason the debt exists so saying “it’s not just the debt” is like when people point at harsh winter storms caused by global warming as evidence against global warming.

Technically the quake is the fault of the fault that runs through the country, thus the ground is literally and very slowly tearing itself apart.

Also it should be considered that a quake like this would fuck up a lot of people even in the most well developed nations on the planet. You can be mad that the government sucks and that's fine, but that really isn't a good metric of why the earthquake did what it did.

Mother nature will buttfuck you without lube no matter how much lube you have on the bed. Just saying.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Oh, yes please.

DM me the specific quakes you'd be interested in learning more about then so I don't just spam this thread. Unless other people want to see them too