Half-Life is probably the deepest game out there.

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Saviordd1

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Raiyan 1.0 said:
Deep? You really need to play some more games if this is your standard for 'depth'.

Half life was never about the story, it was always about the narrative execution and the atmosphere.

Saviordd1 said:
Vonnis said:
I don't really have anything to add to this. HL isn't deep by any stretch of the word. In fact I believe both HL1 and 2 to be mediocre in just about every aspect, but that's just me.
GET DOWN, YOUR ABOUT TO BE ATTACKED BY THE RABID FANS!!! GET TO DA CHOPPER!
I'm so fucking tired of asinine comments like this.

Show me one instance of someone getting attacked on the forums for saying s/he personally doesn't like HL. Go on, it shouldn't be too hard, since it's so fucking ubiquitous.
Well ok.

Your comment is a good start. How? Because you came (With insane hostility for the record) down on my joke for making fun of fanboys, which exist for all games, try to prove me wrong on that point.

But honestly, what am I going to do, call in key witnesses and a jury, should I call my lawyer? Seriously shut up if you can't take a joke then don't be on the internet, the statement was a joke of fans who DO exist for ALL good games, if you don't see that your blind.

Now take a chill pill and stop bothering me :D
 

SteveeVader

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Raiyan 1.0 said:
Deep? You really need to play some more games if this is your standard for 'depth'.

Half life was never about the story, it was always about the narrative execution and the atmosphere.

Saviordd1 said:
Vonnis said:
I don't really have anything to add to this. HL isn't deep by any stretch of the word. In fact I believe both HL1 and 2 to be mediocre in just about every aspect, but that's just me.
GET DOWN, YOUR ABOUT TO BE ATTACKED BY THE RABID FANS!!! GET TO DA CHOPPER!
I'm so fucking tired of asinine comments like this.

Show me one instance of someone getting attacked on the forums for saying s/he personally doesn't like HL. Go on, it shouldn't be too hard, since it's so fucking ubiquitous.
OK so you wanted it; I freaking despise half life like it is the worst fanboy game in my standard because valve fanboys are all just PC elitists. Here is why I cannot stand valve games;
1) There is always the implied air that the games are so deep and awe-aspiring. I played the orange box and played Half life 2 for 3 hours and it is in all honesty one of the worst shooters out there in sense of story and puzzles. It obviously isn't my thing but what makes it worse is that everyone online is saying that it is the epitome of FPS' personally I prefer Halo or if you want to be a golden oldie Perfect Dark N64. But hey it's all about preference.
2) Stupid memes e.g. the cake is a lie - we get it PC guys you got a little line to say because valve is like some freaking safe haven to you.
3) Gordon Freeman is not a GOOD CHARACTER. Nothing relatable, no lines, nothing the guy is just a gary stu practically retarded in treatment. Go here Gordon go there.

To OP; REALLY REALLY Half Life deep, you're trolling mate but I'll give you some key scenes in other games that reflect depth and narrative questioning.

Katona; "I don't know where we are but it will take a while for enforcement to arrive"
John 117 "I'll be right here if you need me" hovers to cryo chamber

There that is all but that makes you question the chief's relation with the blue computer yet it leaves you with a sense of warmth and it's an awwwwwwww moment. I just find it so simple yet it has so many questions.

GTA 4 WHERE YOU HAVE A CHOICE AND you have to deal with death; just a great choice of two great characters

The legion quest in Mass Effect

Most of mass effect and dragon age also Heavy Rain, FF13 even though not fond on the game itself I love the story, LA Noir, Deus Ex
 

Dogstile

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JC123 said:
snipping the crap out of this one
The thing is, adding civilians doesn't make it any deeper than say, adding the miltia in Halo Reach (yeah, i'll use the halo example, as you called out halo fanboys in this thread, although I see none). They're just nameless faces that follow the one thing that keeps getting them blown to hell constantly.

Never mind that it doesn't make sense story wise, considering that Mr Freeman was missing for apparently a fair while for things to get as bad as they had, which makes the player question the plot more than get lost in it.

The rebel groups? They're just nameless people. You fight alongside them then they're out of your mind for the rest of the game. If a game was deep, you'd care about who you fought beside. You would actually feel a tug when they died.

The main characters? I wouldn't call them deep in the slightest. Their operation has been running somewhat smoothly for however long its been running (its been a while since I played the game, so we're not getting into exact dates), so why exactly are they risking everything for the one man who seems to, again and again, destroy so much?

Alyx annoys me the most though. A love subplot? How exactly, I can see admiration, that would work, but they're going into love which would make no sense at all. He has single handedly been the cause of so much of her life being destroyed around her, he never says a single word to her, her father, her friends?

So no, I wouldn't call it deep. Plenty of games, if you think about the world you're in, could be considered deep if you stop and think about it on the level you're going on about. Hell, think about Fable, that despised (for some reason) series that makes jokes about every moral choice you have. Have you ever considered the deeper impacts your actions have? How you might be making the world reliant on heroes? Do you ever think about the people you change?

Probably not i'd say. I see no difference between lowly civilians fighting an alien regime and soldiers fighting a menace that wants to destroy humanity (because hey, lets use that halo thing again) because it doesn't make you think about the characters. Its always heres a crowbar, enemys that way, so run that way.

When a game makes me care about a random civilian, i'll think differently.
 

SteveeVader

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JC123 said:
"Deep" clearly means emotional depth here: Attachment to characters, thought-provoking, response creating, emotional engagement. Deus Ex is not deep, it's a complicated playing experience.

Halo and COD do not give the same emotional depth. There is no attachment to any of the characters, no thoughts about your actions, no worries about what's happening. That's largely because there are no meaningful characters in those games - you're a soldier in a war zone with enemies and allied soldiers, that's all. There's no civilians in these war zones, no development between team mates, just the occasional joke or pleasantry. There's no emotional connection to anyone in the playing world at all - no pictures on walls, no children's rooms, no dead family members, no sign of any life at all. You can't worry for the people here as it feels like once the fight moves on, they'll all just come out of hiding and move back into their houses like nothing happened. The characters may as well be targets who can shoot back, and your allies could be moving turrets, and the game would be the same. Yes soldiers are brave, but when they're special forces (or in the case of Halo, rendered super human), this is their job every single day. It isn't bravery and purpose thrust upon them, it's a job they've chosen (or were born into), and as such it carries less importance. I will give COD a basic point for the nuke scene, since it does make you pause for a second, but the rest of the game is the same bland shooter paint by numbers material.

Whenever I play Half Life 2 on the other hand, I often find myself questioning what I'm doing. I'm the symbol of the resistance, fighting to reclaim the Earth - and my presence means a death sentence for every rebel in sight. Fleeing through the canals, you pass small rebel groups, fighting to hold out, and they're immediately destroyed either fighting beside you, or by the full force of the combine coming behind you. Fighting in the cities, you have every rebel in sight throwing their arms up to stand beside you - and they're usually killed within minutes. There's even that couple throughout each of the games that shows just how tired, strained and emotionally screwed everyone is by the ordeal. Your character is not a soldier, but a scientist thrown into the situation. Your allies are either poorly civilians who have to fight for their lives and freedom, or friends from your past who put far too much emotional weight onto someone they haven't seen in 10 (or is it 20?) years. Worst of all - Alyx is in love with someone who's never even spoken a word to her. Breen raises an interesting point at the end of HL2, saying "You have destroyed so much, what is it exactly that you have created?" It made me pause and think, and I realised that I have managed to completely upset the balance of life on this world, to ruin any chance of humanity simply continuing to exist until their time is up. You've sped up their destruction for the small chance of freedom. It may pay off, or it may be their end, and it's questionable whether you're the right person to be making that decision for them.

Half Life 2's world is an ongoing holocaust, it's time spent in a ghetto watching their world be destroyed. Anyone who has an understanding of history, or about the horrors of war, should at least be pausing for a minute to consider things while they play. It's still a game, and there's a lot of pure shooting, running, puzzle-solving, average writing game-ness in between, but the game world itself is quite deep, and none of the above stop that emotional connection.

I will have to agree though that Half Life is hardly the most emotionally deep game out there. Heavy Rain is a perfect example of a game that makes the emotional attachment the entire purpose, living those events and their decisions afterwards. Consider any truly good game (we're talking classics here, not the latest FPS you enjoyed) and you'll find an emotional attachment. It's a staple of true art - it makes you think and feel. As a side-note, I'd love to see some other examples of good games that manage this, they usually form a pretty decent "must play" list.

Portal gets points for building a connection to an enemy, building a character out of an empty shell that doesn't speak, and taking a lot of emotion from very little material (empty test chambers, some scribbles on the wall, a heart on a box and a few phrases from a robotic voice is all they use). I wouldn't say it's more emotionally engaging though.

dogstile said:
That's not deep, that's convenient events within the game world to get around real life issues. No children? In game reason? Suppression field. Real life reason? Showing kids getting killed is a hot button issue.
Writing within the constrains of the medium does not rule something out as good writing, or emotionally engaging. Some of the best writing, particularly in movies, has done just that - work with limitations to create a great story.

Side-note: For the Halo fanboys who jumped out simply to take down their sworn enemy Half Life 2, it's time for a reality check. The only thing Halo gave to the world of gaming was multiplayer shooting. It helped popularise and fine-tune some factors of console multiplayer games. That's all. Its single player campaign is not good, never has been, and will not stack up to anything but the most average FPS.
Wow way to make a back track you just summed up Halo's plot /facepalm
seriously full of fail

p.s. I forgot to add this to the deep games; Metal gears freaking Meryl dying was the first time I ever cried at a game p;.s. to quoted guy Garrus would freaking own Gordan Freeman
 

Eofofo

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I like half life 2 a lot, but it's not the deepest game out there. In my opinion that would go to Bioshock or system shock 2.
 

RA92

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Saviordd1 said:
But honestly, what am I going to do, call in key witnesses and a jury, should I call my lawyer?
No you don't. Just look up one of those "I hate Half Life" threads.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.115020-Half-Life-2-is-not-a-good-FPS#2114717
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.281309-Half-Life-2-why#11008288
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.108787-Why-is-Half-Life-such-a-cultural-phenomenon#1843219
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.271424-Half-Life-2-Please-Explain#10447945
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.266741-I-dont-like-Half-Life-C?page=1
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.259339-Can-someone-please-tell-me-why-Half-Life-2-has-such-appeal?page=1
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.280978-Storytelling-in-Half-Life-2?page=1

Look up these threads. How many instances can you count of 'fanboys' attacking someone for saying s/he personally dislikes HL?

We've far more "Hurr durr HL fanboys gonna attack me" comments than actual HL fanboys attacking someone for stating something subjective. Looking up these threads, I would say HL has probably the better fanbase since most of the comments are simply "It was great for its time" and "It's the narrative that matters" and "This thread again?". I would say Valve haters are worse than fanboys, since they seem to have to wail about how they hate HL for being popular every other week. Just see the bit in bold in the comment quoted below.

I might have overreacted if you were kidding, but really, I'm tired of people making "Now fanboys gonna attack me!" comments at the end of their posts, implying that anyone who might contend with what they say is a fanboy.

SteveeVader said:
OK so you wanted it; I freaking despise half life like it is the worst fanboy game in my standard because valve fanboys are all just PC elitists. Here is why I cannot stand valve games;
1) There is always the implied air that the games are so deep and awe-aspiring. I played the orange box and played Half life 2 for 3 hours and it is in all honesty one of the worst shooters out there in sense of story and puzzles. It obviously isn't my thing but what makes it worse is that everyone online is saying that it is the epitome of FPS' personally I prefer Halo or if you want to be a golden oldie Perfect Dark N64. But hey it's all about preference.
2) Stupid memes e.g. the cake is a lie - we get it PC guys you got a little line to say because valve is like some freaking safe haven to you.
3) Gordon Freeman is not a GOOD CHARACTER. Nothing relatable, no lines, nothing the guy is just a gary stu practically retarded in treatment. Go here Gordon go there.
Go back to school, learn how to read, and then come back.

I didn't ask why you hate HL, but whether you've ever been attacked by fanboys for saying so around these forums.

Also, the rant about PC elitists? Classic case of certain console gamers going 'Waaah waaah!' without being hit. When was elitism even part of this discussion?
 

bl4ckh4wk64

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Wait, so are you saying our soldiers aren't heroes because they've been trained to fight? You can't untrain thousands of years of survival instincts... All of our soldiers are heroes because they selflessly put their lives on the line to defend the lives and rights of others.

And to those that say the story of the Halo franchise is not good, why don't you read the books and actually get a feel for what the story is rather than get your opinions from players who might or might not have understood all the subtle nuances.

The Half-Life games are in no way deep, but they're at least fun and semi-well thought out. However, by the end of Episode 2 they were trying pretty hard to be this tear-jerking emotional masterpiece.
 

WanderingFool

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The lack of children and Freemen not being a soldier makes Half-Life "deep"?

Are you sure you understand what "Deep" actually means? Im not going to say HL ist possibly deep, as I only played some of HL2 (didnt like it, stopped playing), but if those are your only two reasons, you better take another look.
 

drummond13

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Vonnis said:
Atmos Duality said:
Half-Life? DEEP?
*chuckles*
Sorry, I disagree, simply because the story of Half Life relies entirely too much on Deus Ex Machina events to progress.
I don't really have anything to add to this. HL isn't deep by any stretch of the word. In fact I believe both HL1 and 2 to be mediocre in just about every aspect, but that's just me.
Awww, it's not JUST you. There's maybe two other people out there who agree with you on this.
 

ThisIsSnake

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samwd1 said:
WILL NO ONE TELL ME WHAT DEEP MEANS!

because your talking stupid foriegn crazy stuff that only makes sense if your a smartass.
The 3 dimensions in 3D are length (how long something is), breadth (how wide something is) and depth (how deep something is). What the OP is saying is that Half Life is the most 3D game out there :D

OT: For reasons already listed, Half-Life is nowhere near the deepest game out there. It's good for it's time, not great but good and features all the depth of a dry sponge.
 

BoredDragon

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If you want just want a game that kills children, I recently played demo of an old game called Prey off of the XBLA and was astonished when I saw children getting killed in a horrific fashion... twice. I really don't care since its just a game, but it still took me completely off guard.
 

orangeapples

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meh, any game can be deep on some level if you work hard enough.

Tetris - a game about life.
Every time you get up a level it is an accomplishment, however all of your accomplishments just make it more difficult to hold on. and the pressure ultimately takes you in the end. Sure you can accomplish more than others and you can outlast them, or even crush them in some cases, but when it is you vs. the game, you never win. Yeah, there are a few tests that you can succeed in, but tests never truly prepare you for real life. No matter how good you are, your game will eventually come to an end. It might be from playing for too long, or you make 1 mistake and you never recover or someone sabotages you. It could be a number of things, but the end result is the same. You lose.

of course I'm kidding, but you get the point.
 

Dyan

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Deep? No. But does it have amazing narrative and atmosphere? Yes. Deep is not the right word for it so I tend to disagree when people say it's deep.
 

Smooth Operator

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Oh don't say things like that, people will butcher you.

Wont go so far as to say "best ever X", but they do have alot of depth, depth that only comes from the world detail, alot of people however will skip over that and miss the entire charm.
And honestly if you think away the details it is no more then a decent old school shooter, but as always the devil is in the details.
 

Mark Hardigan

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Half Life: deep? sure. Deepest game out there? No. You might be able to argue that it's the deepest FPS out there, but deepest game period? No.
 

mikey7339

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Please tell me this is a joke...Like I said in another thread Half-Life 2 has the most lauded non-plot of any game and I don't see why. Maybe other people have a better imagination (OK there is no maybe there, I'm the least imaginative person ever) and read into it and build their own plot out of this void. But that is all there is in Half-Life 2, shreds of a plot line that never get fully explored unless you infer and make assumptions.
 

repeating integers

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Raiyan 1.0 said:
Saviordd1 said:
But honestly, what am I going to do, call in key witnesses and a jury, should I call my lawyer?
No you don't. Just look up one of those "I hate Half Life" threads.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.115020-Half-Life-2-is-not-a-good-FPS#2114717
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.281309-Half-Life-2-why#11008288
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.108787-Why-is-Half-Life-such-a-cultural-phenomenon#1843219
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.271424-Half-Life-2-Please-Explain#10447945
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.266741-I-dont-like-Half-Life-C?page=1
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.259339-Can-someone-please-tell-me-why-Half-Life-2-has-such-appeal?page=1
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.280978-Storytelling-in-Half-Life-2?page=1

Look up these threads. How many instances can you count of 'fanboys' attacking someone for saying s/he personally dislikes HL?

We've far more "Hurr durr HL fanboys gonna attack me" comments than actual HL fanboys attacking someone for stating something subjective. Looking up these threads, I would say HL has probably the better fanbase since most of the comments are simply "It was great for its time" and "It's the narrative that matters" and "This thread again?". I would say Valve haters are worse than fanboys, since they seem to have to wail about how they hate HL for being popular every other week. Just see the bit in bold in the comment quoted below.

I might have overreacted if you were kidding, but really, I'm tired of people making "Now fanboys gonna attack me!" comments at the end of their posts, implying that anyone who might contend with what they say is a fanboy.
Don't worry. We went from "Fans of HL attacking people who dislike it in threads about it" to "everyone attacking everyone else all the time everywhere" a while ago. Fuck yeah, progress.

OT: First post sums it up best for me. Good? Yep. Atmospheric? Yeah. Deep?... naaahh. And as for JC123, orangeapples perfectly summed up my thoughts on that post for me. Of course, that doesn't mean his feelings on it are any less valid - people who see meaningful allegory in Tolkein's works, despite Tolkein apparently not meaning anything to be an allegory, aren't wrong because of that. I just don't see that value in Half-Life (and frequently do see deeper values in Halo, fancy that).
 
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No. Gordon Freeman is a shitty hero and here's why:

I always hear that Freeman is supposed to be defined by the player's actions, rather then by dialog. Well, if that's true then Gordon Freeman is a fucking idiot who has no idea what he's doing. And here's why.

In the first game, the only thing he really does is SPECTACULARLY fail to save the Earth from invasion and disappear for two decades while the aliens he failed to stop ravage the Earth and enslave humanity. Somehow, this causes him to become a messiah-figure, despite the fact that he didn't actually do anything worthy of that praise, and even if he did, there's no way for people to hear about him. I guess the idea is that all the Black Mesa employees told stories about him, which in turn became legends, but even that doesn't make sense. I mean, lets think for a moment, how exactly would these stories go? "Yeah, I remember Gordan Freeman. He was the guy who opened the portal the aliens came through, and then he abandoned us. He's such a hero."

But the fun doesn't stop there. At the end of the second game, our brilliant physicist gets into the Citadel and...well, just starts smashing everything he can get his gravity gun on. This results in a MASSIVE explosion which destroys all of City 17, killing thousands and displacing thousands more. Sure, living under Combine rule was horrible, but at least they had food and shelter. Not so much now. Plus, even if all the refugees can get to Resistance bases, there's no way the Resistance could possibly prepare for that kind of increase in population. They would have enough food and shelter for around 1-2 hundred people, and thanks to Freeman they now have to cater to thousands. The cost of keeping all those people safe will now put a HUGE strain on the Resistance's resources, making it borderline impossible to focus on anything else. Like, you know, the imminent Combine counter-attack. Once again, our hero, everybody. Now, I know what you're going to say: It wasn't Freeman, the Combine set off the explosion. No. No they didn't. They ACCELERATED the explosion. Freeman still knocked over the first genocidal domino.

Not to mention the fact the Hero of the Resistance can't seem to stop leading the Combine directly to the Resistance's bases. Seriously, whenever Freeman shows up at a base, they shouldn't be greeting him with open arms, they should be fucking evacuating.

Master Chief on the other hand...Well, he's pretty much exactly the same, except that he actually lives up the whole "Symbol of Hope" thing by ACTUALLY DOING HEROIC THINGS. And the guys from Call of Duty...Yeah, they're pretty much just stock "badass" characters. And I wouldn't have it any other way.