Halo 4 Sexism Earns You a Lifetime Ban

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Ryotknife

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LadyZephyr said:
2. But sexist/homophobic/racist talk only offends thin-skinned people! Be less sensitive!

Nice victim blaming there.

We are not talking about isolated incidents. Let me say that again in bold tags. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ISOLATED INCIDENTS. We are talking about XBL, which is so virulently, ardently abusive and proud of it that it's a fucking no-fly zone for anyone who isn't white straight and male (SWM). We are talking about systemic, ingrained harassment. We are talking about people who are dogged out of games for having the audacity to not be SWM. This isn't about one badly timed "stay in the kitchen" joke.

everyone, and i mean EVERYONE gets crap on XBL. XBL is not some magical land for SWM. Nice job blaming all of the woes on a single group though. That cesspool that you imagine XBL is for non SWM? yea it is the exact same cesspool for SWM.

But here is the thing! I support censorship of some sort for XBL which brings me to...

5. But trash talk is a part of gamer culture!

This is probably the worst.

If your culture is dependent on driving out anyone who isn't SWM, if it cannot exist without being able to drive anyone with a feminine username out of the game, if it will crumble without being able to hurl invectives, if it feeds on an environment that tells you it's okay to harass people to "let off steam"

then that culture deserves to go down. Any culture that fosters exclusiveness and hate isn't entitled to shit.

Gaming culture has gotten a free pass for a long time. In recent years, people have been deciding that's not okay. Just because you are suddenly under scrutiny now doesn't mean you shouldn't've been the whole time.
that is not what trash talking is. Trash talking is not meant to foster exclusiveness. Thats TROLLING. Actually, hell that is not even the purpose of trolling. The purpose of trolling is to get you mad in a malicious way. That your reaction to this is to exclude yourself is not part of the goal (course they wont be broken up over it). In the USA, it is common for male friends to trash talk one another during a game or another competitive engagement. So it is not meant to foster exclusivity. Course even trash talking among friends there is a line you do not cross which brings us full circle with censorship.

I support some form of censorship because there are outliers/trolls/people who blantantly cross the line. People whose insults are malicious in nature to inspire "grr im going to your house and stab you in the throat" kind of anger instead of "grr im going to kick your butt in the game" kind of anger. In real life, if your trash talking crosses the line do you know what you get? a punch to the face. Straightens people out real quick. Unfortuntately we can not do that on XBL, so SOME censorship is good. That does NOT mean that ALL trash talking should be censored. That is WORSE than no censorship because it will foster feelings of resentment and hate more so than no censorship does. Extreme political correctness is much worse than no political correctness.

Still, this should be an interesting experiment to see how well censorship can work. If they can remove the ugly side of this without too much collateral damage.
 

TheAsterite

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People are thinking about this the wrong way. You needed to be thinking about how you can use this system as trolls to get the most people permabanned. I wouldn't mind if they banned all curse words to be honest, more fun for me lol.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Ryotknife said:
That does NOT mean that ALL trash talking should be censored. That is WORSE than no censorship because it will foster feelings of resentment and hate more so than no censorship does. Extreme political correctness is much worse than no political correctness.

Still, this should be an interesting experiment to see how well censorship can work. If they can remove the ugly side of this without too much collateral damage.
going to reiterate, this is what I agree with the most.

I'm all for harassers getting the very harsh treatments/bans, but censorship because you get "offended" is something i absolutely despise, I can't even tell you the last time I said something bad in a game, doesn't change the fact that i think is is a very ugly line they are crossing.
 

TheAsterite

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Ryotknife said:
That does NOT mean that ALL trash talking should be censored. That is WORSE than no censorship because it will foster feelings of resentment and hate more so than no censorship does. Extreme political correctness is much worse than no political correctness.

Still, this should be an interesting experiment to see how well censorship can work. If they can remove the ugly side of this without too much collateral damage.
And why shouldn't all trash talking be censored? If you need to insult someone in order to play competitively online, you shouldn't be playing at all.
 

Adaephon

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Like most people on this thread seem to think, I do like the concept of this but I'm a little worried by the execution of it. The big problem for me is that context seems to have no bearing on this. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong since I don't own an X-box, but live is an international thing right? So people from different countries and cultures will be interacting over it? What I'm getting at is the definition of offensiveness is subjective, so there is no way to tell if what I say is offensive to someone else (with obvious exceptions for blatantly offensive things said only to be offensive).

For example, my family is largely from Zimbabwe and South Africa, and the older people in my family, including my parents, still use the word coloured to describe non-white, non-black people. They're not racist, they just come from a different country, but if they were talking to people during a Halo match (why they would be on Halo I don't know....) and somehow the topic of South African ethnic-politics comes up and they say something about how coloureds need more representation, or have too much representation or whatever, and someone who didn't understand what they meant and was offended, they would be perma-banned? In a perfect world then there would be a system to stop that, like having individual judges or something to decide these things but for obvious reasons that is impossible, but a no-warning ultimate strike against anyone who dares say something that somebody else could even remotely misconstrue as offensive seems way too far, even though I would say it is in the right direction. The other problem is, as there is sometimes no way to tell context, people could think they are defending someone from abuse while in fact they just got that person's friend or girlfriend or boyfriend or partner or whatever banned for playful banter. So unless there is some magical way to immediately distinguish two friends exchanging good-natured racism/sexism/homophobia/etc (yes, those things exist) and someone actually being an obnoxious little freak, I can't see how this can really work.

A good example for the sexism thing would be my history prof. He believes that women should not work and that men should not play a large role in child-rearing because, according to him, biology makes women better at raising children and men better at making money, to the point that he has said that if his wife were to die than the kids would go to a foster home, since he believes that he, or any man, is too incompetent to raise the children without doing damage to them. While i obviously disagree with him on that, I would hardly call it sexism (well, not malicious sexism at any rate), he just comes from a different culture where it is okay to say those things. So why should he, or anyone else, be punished for not being "western" enough to understand what offends the western people he is interacting with?

I guess it all boils down to what my ethics prof used to say was the hardest debate in human history, "How many murderers do you let go free to avoid killing/incarcerating a single innocent, and how many innocents will you kill/incarcerate to punish a single criminal?" I'm sure that the majority of people who get banned this way do deserve it, but I for one don't abide punishing people whose only crime was being misunderstood or mistaken for somebody else in order to get the really guilty people. Not that anyone who disagrees with me on this is wrong or anything, but it all really boils down to personal opinion on what constitutes offensiveness and what constitutes appropriate punishment.

TL;DR, people have different concepts of what judges offensiveness based on culture, on familiarity with the people they are interacting with and on personal experiences. Unless the people enforcing this ban have a way of distinguishing the real offensive people from those who were just misunderstood, then this system is doomed to failure right out of the gate.
 

TheAsterite

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Adaephon said:
A good example for the sexism thing would be my history prof. He believes that women should not work and that men should not play a large role in child-rearing because, according to him, biology makes women better at raising children and men better at making money, to the point that he has said that if his wife were to die than the kinds would go to a foster home, since he believes that he, or any man, is too incompetent to raise the children without doing damage to them. While i obviously disagree with him on that, I would hardly call it sexism (well, not malicious sexism at any rate), he just comes from a different culture where it is okay to say those things. So why should he, or anyone else, be punished for not being "western" enough to understand what offends the western people he is interacting with?
He should absolutely be banned for saying something as sexist as that.
 

Something Amyss

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Zombiefish said:
Interested to know how they will handle this. Many 'sexist' comments are made jokingly. My friends often tease me 'oh no wonder you died you're a girl' and its never mean in a derogatory manner, but glad to see something is being done.
So...Don't report them? That's the way the system works.
 

ShirowShirow

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Adaephon said:
A good example for the sexism thing would be my history prof. He believes that women should not work and that men should not play a large role in child-rearing because, according to him, biology makes women better at raising children and men better at making money, to the point that he has said that if his wife were to die than the kinds would go to a foster home, since he believes that he, or any man, is too incompetent to raise the children without doing damage to them. While i obviously disagree with him on that, I would hardly call it sexism (well, not malicious sexism at any rate), he just comes from a different culture where it is okay to say those things. So why should he, or anyone else, be punished for not being "western" enough to understand what offends the western people he is interacting with?
What? How the hell do people put up with someone like that?
 

Tradjus

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Apr 25, 2011
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I already know that this will be one of those deterrent policies.
You know, a policy that is absolutely unenforceable except for in a few big cases that are supposed to act as a deterrent to further behavior.
These sorts of policies rarely work, because people learn that those "Enforcing" them are toothless and impotent when it comes to handing out the punishments. Think about it, how low would Xbox Live Memberships sink too if this policy actually came out in force? If every single idiot was no longer allowed to say fag or *****, and was actually punished each time they did, how much money would Microsoft lose?
No, this one will fail right out of the gate, there is no doubt in my mind that it will either only ban a very small handful of people, or will be rescinded almost immediately.
 

lacktheknack

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Jan 19, 2009
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Oh God.

Now http://whywasibanned.com/ is going to be FLOODED with spectacular complaints.

I'm not even sure if I'm pleased or not.
 

DracoSuave

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Adaephon said:
A good example for the sexism thing would be my history prof. He believes that women should not work and that men should not play a large role in child-rearing because, according to him, biology makes women better at raising children and men better at making money, to the point that he has said that if his wife were to die than the kids would go to a foster home, since he believes that he, or any man, is too incompetent to raise the children without doing damage to them. While i obviously disagree with him on that, I would hardly call it sexism (well, not malicious sexism at any rate), he just comes from a different culture where it is okay to say those things. So why should he, or anyone else, be punished for not being "western" enough to understand what offends the western people he is interacting with?
'Culture' is not an excuse to be a douchebag, and the sooner people realize this, the better the world will be.
 

Adaephon

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TheAsterite said:
Adaephon said:
A good example for the sexism thing would be my history prof. He believes that women should not work and that men should not play a large role in child-rearing because, according to him, biology makes women better at raising children and men better at making money, to the point that he has said that if his wife were to die than the kinds would go to a foster home, since he believes that he, or any man, is too incompetent to raise the children without doing damage to them. While i obviously disagree with him on that, I would hardly call it sexism (well, not malicious sexism at any rate), he just comes from a different culture where it is okay to say those things. So why should he, or anyone else, be punished for not being "western" enough to understand what offends the western people he is interacting with?
He should absolutely be banned for saying something as sexist as that.
And I'm sure he would think you to be a racist for saying that his ideas created by his personal racial/cultural upbringing is inherently sexist. And it's not like his wife or daughters have no rights or anything, I went to highschool with his oldest daughter and he gives her complete freedom to do as she wants. Just because he and his wife (she chose to be a housewife mind you) are more old school doesn't make him sexist, at least not in my opinion.
 

SushiJaguar

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Just goes to show what a resourceful female can cook up when they're left in the kitchen, lads.

I mean, left in charge of an entire franchise. The only thing I'm tentatively worried about is what method they'll take to enforce this. I'd rather put up with a bit of sexism than complete tyranny. As long as they don't forget what jokes or heat-of-the-moment comments are, then there won't be a problem.

That being said, I'm glad they're trying to avoid cliches. Hopefully they mean that in the sense all the female types won't be so much more hardcore than any bloke ever in the history of the ODST or whichever faceless forgettable backup troupe Master Chief is toting around this time. As somebody already brought up, that dynamic of the Marines in the original Aliens was fantastic. That Vasquez(sp) was a pretty brill character.
 

Ryotknife

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TheAsterite said:
Ryotknife said:
That does NOT mean that ALL trash talking should be censored. That is WORSE than no censorship because it will foster feelings of resentment and hate more so than no censorship does. Extreme political correctness is much worse than no political correctness.

Still, this should be an interesting experiment to see how well censorship can work. If they can remove the ugly side of this without too much collateral damage.
And why shouldn't all trash talking be censored? If you need to insult someone in order to play competitively online, you shouldn't be playing at all.
why should it be fully censored? millions of male friend relationships in which it doesnt hurt anyone.

This is no different than that school banning the Father-daughter dance they hold every year because ONE kid doesnt have a father. It is the vast majority suffering for the minority. I am all for removing outliers as they cause nothing but harm, but this age of appeasement of one person gets insulted everyone else now has to suffer is beyond silly and the most asinine thing this country has done in a long time in the name of "progress"

moderation is the key, like most things in life.

but expecting people to go about solving a problem in a reasonable fashion seems to be beyond most (at least in the good ole USA, cant speak for other countries), people would rather go to the extreme instead. Well, at the top of the pyramid at least.

And keep in mind, I dont talk on XBL. So obviously I do not trash talk. But the idea of complete tyranny is not something I support.

Unless it was old school Greek style tyranny.

I kid....kinda.
 

Hagi

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Sounds good to me. Don't have a XBox, let alone XBox Live, but from the stories I hear some moderation is definitely needed.

As for free speech. Nobody is infringing on that right by perma-banning you. You're still absolutely free to spew whatever bile you wish, Microsoft however is in no way required to use their servers to transmit that bile to everyone else. If you wish it send across the internet simply invest in your own TeamSpeak or Ventrilo server and invite people you're playing with to join you there. Or set up a Skype group conversation or whatever.

I think people need to realize that everything you say isn't just said in the safety of your own home. It's the digital equivalent of any public meeting place like a restaurant, bar or bowling alley. And if you start screaming obscenities at random strangers then the place's security will come in and kick you out. And they will remember you and forbid you access the next time.
 

A Satanic Panda

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As much as I would love to see trolls and general ass holes to get what's coming to them, free speech goes both ways. But this is getting pretty ridicules. Every time I hear someone praise KiKi Wolfkill for this "Zero-tolerance" perma-ban system, I imagine people thanking the glorious Big Brother for their poor harvest and reduced chocolate rations. If you want to see how this system works, go take a vacation to the DPRK.

Don't like what someone is saying? Mute them.

Don't like the messages they're sending you? Block them.

Don't like that you actually have to mute and block people and everyone should like you unconditionally? May the real world have mercy on you.

So I won't be buying this iteration of Halo. Because I don't want to get banned for calling someone "a fucking whore" that use the sword to camp.

LadyZephyr said:
Male gamers as a whole don't get it. It is not one or two instances of people "being dicks." It's every single time you open you mouth in a gaming environment while in possession of a feminine username or voice. It's constant abuse. it's people remembering your username and following you out of the match and telling all their buddies. It's never, ever about the game, it's about the fact that you are a lady and you don't belong here, so we will harass you until you leave.

It is not about sensitivity, it's about abuse.

And it needs to stop.

Debunked.
 

ShirowShirow

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Muting people is bandage. By the time one's been applied the damage has already been done and the aggressor is free to go do it again.

Actually I think I'm going to put that comment on that goddamn video.
 

Some_weirdGuy

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AnarchistAbe said:
erttheking said:
Counter_Southpaw said:
I hope this doesn't infringe upon my frequent habit of trashtalking the opposing team.

It's a Halo past-time, for God's sake!
There's a difference between trash talking someone and throwing sexist comments around. I think you'll be fine.
Is there? Is "*****" a sexist remark? Is it sexist when I say it to a female, but not when I say it to a male? Is it worth a permaban to joke about "getting back to the kitchen"? Why is it ok for me to be as blatantly racist as possible, but sexism is off limits? Who determines these invisible lines which we can't cross, or we are banned from the service forever?

These are all questions you have to ask. I'm not saying the IDEA is bad. I'm saying that permabans are bad. Find these players, and remove their in-game chat privileges, or temp-ban them for 24 - 48 hours. What we're talking about is COMPLETELY REMOVING THEIR ABILITY TO PLAY ONLINE, because someone found their remarks "sexist"...
from OP:

"you're going to see this type of behaviour manifest itself." That's why there's a zero tolerance policy for sexist or discriminatory comments on Xbox Live;
so, going ahead and being as blatantly racist as possible sounds like an equally bad idea, if you want to avoid bans. (sorry if this was already pointed out to you).

Either way, here's hoping it all works out ok, though i suspect many false reports and so on, and unless they're recording every game so that they can verify I'm not exactly sure how the system will not be abused or mistakenly catch people out(who will understandably be very angry... and potentially liars just trying to get them self out of the consequences).