Halo: Reach, Noble Controversy

Recommended Videos

Archindar

New member
Jul 28, 2008
132
0
0
Korovashya said:
First off, ass a prequel, it totally destroys the storyline, that is correct. However, not all the flaws mentioned necessarily conflict with known facts. to start, the invasion of Reach is portrayed differently in the book and the game because they are through the eyes of different people and in different places. Hence, grander, global contradictions may not be the case the Covenant or UNSC may have employed different strategies in different areas, or there could have been communications errors, etc.

Secondly, only Jun survives the game by escorting Dr Halsey to CASTLE base at the end of the game. And, the Spartans IIs in The Fall of Reach arrive to find her alone. It is not entirely inconceivable that Jun may have died during the transition, or that he died inside CASTLE base and the Spartans IIs simply never found his body. He could also have left after completing his objective or any number of things.

One of the things that Greyfox105 mentioned is that the Spartan IIIs were not wearing the SPI Armour described in Ghosts of Onyx. This is explained in that Noble team was equipped with extra equipment and better gear to better suit their specific objectives. However, what IS of concern is where the Spartans came from. Take the player for example. He (or she in my case)is listed as B312, the B indicating that he is a member of Beta Company. However, 298 of the 300 Spartans in Beta were killed in OPERATION: TORPEDO. The books and games talk of at least four Spartans of Beta who were removed before the battle of Pegasi Delta, but The Ghosts of Onyx clearly states that there were only 300 Spartans of beta company selected for augmentation and only two survived. These were confirmed to be Lucy-B091 and Tom-B292.

The main issue is in fact, how Dr Halsey knows the Spartan IIIs. in Ghosts of Onyx she meets a Spartan III for the first time on Onyx. Yet, in SWORD base, she seems totally familiar with Carter and the rest of Noble Team. She is friendly to Jorge because he is a Spartan II, yet all the others, who are Spartan IIIs, were not known to exist by Halsey at this point.

I could wax on about other plot holes, such as why Cortana needed to get to the Pillar of Autumn is never explained. Also, Halo: Reach makes the emotional response Cortana has in leaving the Autumn rather stupid, as she had literally just arrived on board. But the main points are there. The game has a good compelling story, but it requires you to ignore the rest of the Halo universe (Something easy for a lot of people i'm sure) and the characters are very one dimensional and shallow.

I would also like to point out that as Space Spoons iterated, the Spartans were expected to work cooperatively, (no pun intended) instead of hierarchically. Although Carter would always have the final say on an issue, he would be remiss not to encourage and listen to the suggestions of his team members.

Lastly, to Eclectic Dreck, the Spartan IIIs were not actually soldiers before training, they were young children just like the Spartan II class. The only difference between II and III is that the IIIs were specifically selected from orphans or refugees who had a reason to hate the Covenant. They also accepted less stringent genetic profiles for training.
And that's like all of the inconsistencies that keeps me up at night.
Thank you for putting them out there so people could understand them.
They made a great game with a compelling story, but a story that doesn't fit the already established canon.
Only if the republished version of Halo: The Fall Of Reach and Halo: First Strike hade made room for these changes then the story of the game would make more sense.
I will keep on dreaming...
 

Tomo Stryker

New member
Aug 20, 2010
626
0
0
Zhukov said:
Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

The only one who could possibly fit that description was Jorge. The rest of the squad displayed about as much emotion and empathy as a pile of heavily armed cardboard boxes.
Sorry I guess I was thinking of Jorge, I dunno it just seemed totally out of character for Spartans or characters of there status to come down from their Godly perch as war heroes and comfort citizens.

Grouchy Imp said:
I got the limited edition that came with a short diary written by Dr Halsey, in which she waxes lyrical about the fact that the Spartan project was taken out of her hands and that the newer Spartans don't meet her standards. I reckon that covers the plot disparity you mentioned (I haven't read the book but I think I get what you're driving at).
Sorry, again my friend didn't buy the limited addition and I didn't take the time to find the journal online or read it, but that would explain why the Spartan III's didn't respect Halsey when they met her (except for Jorge). That would actually explain a lot I didn't know, thanks.
 
Mar 30, 2010
3,785
0
0
Tomo Stryker said:
Sorry, again my friend didn't buy the limited addition and I didn't take the time to find the journal online or read it, but that would explain why the Spartan III's didn't respect Halsey when they met her (except for Jorge). That would actually explain a lot I didn't know, thanks.
It's worth trying to find a transcript or something online. I'm not a huge Halo fan (I enjoy the games but haven't really explored the out-of-game content) but I found it a fascinating read containing a shedload of new backstory on the whole Spartan project (which is maybe covered in the books, so maybe not as new to an avid fan), the Covenant, and the rebellion. The diary starts with a young Halsey starting her career and goes right up to where Reach picks up.

I'd seriously recommend that you give it a look - there's some really intriguing stuff in there.
 

WanderingFool

New member
Apr 9, 2009
3,991
0
0
I think the problem is that, and I could be seriously wrong about this, but that the books were written with to fill the gaps left by the games. Some of the books, I cant think of the name of them in particular, are meant to be a kind of "between" story for the games. Fall of Reach was most likely written as a means to explain how we got the beginning of Halo: CE. But as I never read it, I dont know what exactly happens, but I still see the books as side-stories or gap-fillers in the Basic Halo story.

And also like other people have said, these are Spartan IIIs, save Jorge, and are made to be more or less throw-away super-soldier. The only reason Noble team has Mojlnir (god thats hard to spell, feel free to correct) armor was because they survived a number of suicide missions.
 

Tomo Stryker

New member
Aug 20, 2010
626
0
0
Ya, I dunno because I also felt the same way about ODST. Way to much sap story for "Bucks" (seriously? Who names there child Buck)lover side story going on. But all in all I can't wait for my hand to feel good enough to play some multiplayer at least eh?
 

dehavid

New member
Nov 9, 2009
5
0
0
No-one seems to have mentioned that in Halo: Reach Cortana is said to have chosen Noble 6, but in Halo 3 she talks about having chosen the Cheif ahead of all the other Spartans. If Reach is to believed, she can't have chosen the Cheif. Cheif was the only Spartan on the Pillar of Autumn. That's not much of a choice.

Also, I thought Cortana was supposed to have been created by Halsey in her image, not found on reach. (I may be wrong about what happened in Reach where that's concerned, my memory is a little fuzzy)

Or are this AI and Cortana different?
 

lazyslothboy

New member
Jul 1, 2010
59
0
0
Korovashya said:
First off, ass a prequel, it totally destroys the storyline, that is correct. However, not all the flaws mentioned necessarily conflict with known facts. to start, the invasion of Reach is portrayed differently in the book and the game because they are through the eyes of different people and in different places. Hence, grander, global contradictions may not be the case the Covenant or UNSC may have employed different strategies in different areas, or there could have been communications errors, etc.

Secondly, only Jun survives the game by escorting Dr Halsey to CASTLE base at the end of the game. And, the Spartans IIs in The Fall of Reach arrive to find her alone. It is not entirely inconceivable that Jun may have died during the transition, or that he died inside CASTLE base and the Spartans IIs simply never found his body. He could also have left after completing his objective or any number of things.

One of the things that Greyfox105 mentioned is that the Spartan IIIs were not wearing the SPI Armour described in Ghosts of Onyx. This is explained in that Noble team was equipped with extra equipment and better gear to better suit their specific objectives. However, what IS of concern is where the Spartans came from. Take the player for example. He (or she in my case)is listed as B312, the B indicating that he is a member of Beta Company. However, 298 of the 300 Spartans in Beta were killed in OPERATION: TORPEDO. The books and games talk of at least four Spartans of Beta who were removed before the battle of Pegasi Delta, but The Ghosts of Onyx clearly states that there were only 300 Spartans of beta company selected for augmentation and only two survived. These were confirmed to be Lucy-B091 and Tom-B292.

The main issue is in fact, how Dr Halsey knows the Spartan IIIs. in Ghosts of Onyx she meets a Spartan III for the first time on Onyx. Yet, in SWORD base, she seems totally familiar with Carter and the rest of Noble Team. She is friendly to Jorge because he is a Spartan II, yet all the others, who are Spartan IIIs, were not known to exist by Halsey at this point.

I could wax on about other plot holes, such as why Cortana needed to get to the Pillar of Autumn is never explained. Also, Halo: Reach makes the emotional response Cortana has in leaving the Autumn rather stupid, as she had literally just arrived on board. But the main points are there. The game has a good compelling story, but it requires you to ignore the rest of the Halo universe (Something easy for a lot of people i'm sure) and the characters are very one dimensional and shallow.

I would also like to point out that as Space Spoons iterated, the Spartans were expected to work cooperatively, (no pun intended) instead of hierarchically. Although Carter would always have the final say on an issue, he would be remiss not to encourage and listen to the suggestions of his team members.

Lastly, to Eclectic Dreck, the Spartan IIIs were not actually soldiers before training, they were young children just like the Spartan II class. The only difference between II and III is that the IIIs were specifically selected from orphans or refugees who had a reason to hate the Covenant. They also accepted less stringent genetic profiles for training.
Dr Halsey's journal explains some of those issues out too. With her meeting the spartan IIIs, she mentioned that she wasn't sure who they were, just that they were spartans but not hers. It also brought up the idea of splitting parts of an AI and reintegrating them, and i am pretty sure it brought up actually doing that to Cortana. In other words, part of her was researching the artifact and the rest of her was on the Autumn.
 

GloatingSwine

New member
Nov 10, 2007
4,544
0
0
Greyfox105 said:
One of the things that gets me is that these are meant to be Spartan IIIs (Apart from Jorge, apparently), yet their armour is nothing like the Semi-Powered Infiltration-Armour (S.P.I.A.) that Spartan IIIs use
That's because Noble Team wear MJOLNIR V armour.

Tomo Stryker said:
I didn't like how Kat and Noble leader were always going at each other and totally ignoring the chain of command.
How are they "ignoring the chain of command". Carter knows and trusts Kat well enough that he listens to her suggestions, she's the team's intel and mission support specialist. Also note that everything they actually do they take to Col. Holland for approval first.

dehavid said:
No-one seems to have mentioned that in Halo: Reach Cortana is said to have chosen Noble 6, but in Halo 3 she talks about having chosen the Cheif ahead of all the other Spartans. If Reach is to believed, she can't have chosen the Cheif. Cheif was the only Spartan on the Pillar of Autumn. That's not much of a choice.
She chose the Chief for the mission she was created for, that's why he was shipped in stasis to the Pillar of Autumn rather than fighting on Reach. She chose Noble 6 to get her there.
 

whycantibelinus

New member
Sep 29, 2009
997
0
0
Tomo Stryker said:
Alright let me just say that I have watched my friend play Halo Reach because I'm currently unable to play Xbox 360 because of a lot of pain in my digits. Anyway I want to clarify that I have played all the of other Halo game franchise and I didn't think the plot was bad but the voice acting was terrible and I have also read one of the books Eric Nylund's The Fall of Reach. I personally thought that it was well written and composed well, for a gaming book anyway. But the heart of the matter is that I immediately from the get go of Halo Reach didn't like ANY of the characters, I didn't like how Kat and Noble leader were always going at each other and totally ignoring the chain of command. Now if you haven't read The Fall of Reach please don't slander my question with anti Halo hate, hear me out. Eric Nylund described the Spartans as hulking figures of muscle, sinew, and silence; instead we get these drama Spartans who spew emotion and empathy at ever flipping turn. I don't have a problem with the game itself, I think its excellent and the graphics are fantastic! I just wanted to take a step back and analyze this, I'm not sure why but I just find opposite of what we already learned and expected from Spartans of the past (well future actually). Anyway I wanted to get that off my chest, please put your comments, agreements, or disrespect bellow.
You clearly did not understand the novel The Fall of Reach. Spartans are not cold empty vessels of war, they are people just raised differently. If you remember, John-117 felt remorse and the need for vengeance after any Spartan that died under his command. Spartans are trained to give everything, up to and including their lives, to allow humanity to continue on thriving and prospering.

I do believe you are a Halo fan such as myself, but please, just for the sake of the haters out there, get your idea's right with the Halo universe before you decide to make a thread that is completely wrong about the main military force within the story universe. The Spartans were never meant to be unemotional, they were meant to be the protectors of Earth and all her colonies, which the protection would require emotional decisions on the battle field, like John-117 has made time and time again considering emotions and mathematical evaluations. He always took human emotion into account, You'd be mistaken to think he didn't.
 

1blackone

New member
Dec 14, 2007
91
0
0
Aphex Demon said:
LightspeedJack said:
Aphex Demon said:
SGT Johnson is black, He is born with natural skill.
That's bizarro racism.
Its not racist, your just trolling.
It is in the sense that it connotes that non-blacks are born Without natural skill, which is probably why he said "bizzaro":reversed. But whatever, let's leave it alone and keep it moving.

OT: Even IF it was canon to make them sociopathic mutes, no writer would in their right mind portray them as such and risk missing the chance for the story to make a connection with the audience.
 

whycantibelinus

New member
Sep 29, 2009
997
0
0
GloatingSwine said:
dehavid said:
No-one seems to have mentioned that in Halo: Reach Cortana is said to have chosen Noble 6, but in Halo 3 she talks about having chosen the Cheif ahead of all the other Spartans. If Reach is to believed, she can't have chosen the Cheif. Cheif was the only Spartan on the Pillar of Autumn. That's not much of a choice.
She chose the Chief for the mission she was created for, that's why he was shipped in stasis to the Pillar of Autumn rather than fighting on Reach. She chose Noble 6 to get her there.
First off, you continually misspell "Chief" dehavid, I'm no grammar whiz, but spelling is a peeve of mine. I before E except after C. Learn it. Live it. Love it.

Ok, Cortana chose the Chief as her Spartan because...

He was apparently incredibly lucky, she was technically made from Halsey's brain who had a supreme emotional attachment to John, and that she "likes crazy" which Master Chief excels at.

She chose him for no mission other than that he was interesting to her. Nothing else.

If you pay attention to the Halo universe it relies on luck and coincidence more than anything. Not skill, choice of mission, or equipment at hand but luck.
 

Tomo Stryker

New member
Aug 20, 2010
626
0
0
whycantibelinus said:
You clearly did not understand the novel The Fall of Reach. Spartans are not cold empty vessels of war, they are people just raised differently. If you remember, John-117 felt remorse and the need for vengeance after any Spartan that died under his command. Spartans are trained to give everything, up to and including their lives, to allow humanity to continue on thriving and prospering.

I do believe you are a Halo fan such as myself, but please, just for the sake of the haters out there, get your idea's right with the Halo universe before you decide to make a thread that is completely wrong about the main military force within the story universe. The Spartans were never meant to be unemotional, they were meant to be the protectors of Earth and all her colonies, which the protection would require emotional decisions on the battle field, like John-117 has made time and time again considering emotions and mathematical evaluations. He always took human emotion into account, You'd be mistaken to think he didn't.
Interesting, I guess that people interpret things differently. But you do raise a good point and I'm not one to give up my opinions. Throughout the book I did always think they were emotionless, which is what gave them logic in the field rather than emotion. But back on topic, it did seem that Bungie was shooting for more of a story rather than an actual biography of a soldier. Thanks for all the comments!
 

dehavid

New member
Nov 9, 2009
5
0
0
GloatingSwine said:
dehavid said:
No-one seems to have mentioned that in Halo: Reach Cortana is said to have chosen Noble 6, but in Halo 3 she talks about having chosen the Cheif ahead of all the other Spartans. If Reach is to believed, she can't have chosen the Cheif. Cheif was the only Spartan on the Pillar of Autumn. That's not much of a choice.
She chose the Chief for the mission she was created for, that's why he was shipped in stasis to the Pillar of Autumn rather than fighting on Reach. She chose Noble 6 to get her there.
Ah, story makes more sense now. That's why no-one was pointing that out.