'Hardcore' games, 'Hardcore' consoles, and a think about the hardcore gamer

[KarumaK]

I simplified it for myself in this way;

Hardcore: Spends a majority of freetime gaming.
Casual: Spends a minority of freetime gaming.

Don't care about the consoles or the games. It's just how much you do it.

 

[insectoid]

Hardcore, to me, denotes someone who is so 'into' a particular hobby or activity, it is almost bad for them; it's not just something they do, but something they live.

 

[Sewblon]

I basically agree, "hardcore" and "casual" never meant any thing to begin with. They are just ways for grouchy teenagers to complain about how the market place is turning against them, when they don't contribute anything themselves.

 

[Naeo]

The terms originally meant, I think, how much time you have to devote to a game to really get into it. Wii had arcade-style games in that you could play, say, Mario Kart's races for a bit and that was basically the game, you had done most all there was to see (aside from unlock all characters and bikes, that is). Or games that you generally didn't have to have a lot of time on your hands to get the full experience of.

360 and PS3 had more games that took a long time to get the hang of. And in the "hardcore gamer"'s eyes, the longer it takes to get good at the more "hardcore" it is.

Although, "hardcore", I agree, is totally dependent on how you play any given game.

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

The terms originally meant, I think, how much time you have to devote to a game to really get into it. Wii had arcade-style games in that you could play, say, Mario Kart's races for a bit and that was basically the game, you had done most all there was to see (aside from unlock all characters and bikes, that is). Or games that you generally didn't have to have a lot of time on your hands to get the full experience of.

360 and PS3 had more games that took a long time to get the hang of. And in the "hardcore gamer"'s eyes, the longer it takes to get good at the more "hardcore" it is.

Although, "hardcore", I agree, is totally dependent on how you play any given game.

Glad you agree, but in the sense of your example (I'm aware it's not your opinion I think), look at Crystal Shadow's example.

And then there's mario. Who, by my understanding of the way the terms are getting used, is neither 'hardcore' nor 'casual'. (now there's something? What's the inbetween state of those two?)

But, if you've gotten 121 stars in Super Mario Galaxy, that's quite an accomplishment.
(for one thing, it means you've played through it twice. Once with Mario, and once with Luigi.)

And doing Luigi's Purple coins as Luigi, is one of the most insanely difficult things I've done in a game in a long time.
(seriously. Even now that I've got it down, it still averages 10 attempts to get through. - I remember going through 50 lives the first time and still being unable to do it...
How many people do you think would have the patience to keep going after that?)

Yes, you could say a 'hardcore' game is harder to get the hang of, but once you start, it's easy enough save for a few tricky parts. Mario has always had a certain optional section in its games that are simply insanely difficult. Mario on the older consoles was an easy game to get the hang of. You press A, you jump. You press B, you activate your gained special attack. Yet Mario 2 is one of the most notoriously savage games in gamer memory.

What does that categorise that game as? Hardcore? casual? Or a game?

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/3762/1337cereal070kh7.jpg

somewhat relevant

I laughed.

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

"Hardcore" is a term people use as a marketing tool or buzzword. I figure that anyone who makes a big deal about being 'hardcore' or not is a fool. Just play the games you like and enjoy your hobbies, there's no need to claim superiority over others for their choices.

 

[MetallicaRulez0]

I would define a hardcore game as one that requires an investment of a large amount of time and effort from the gamer to complete or become competent at.

I agree. A 'casual' game is one that can be played in small increments, or doesn't require a lot of time to pick up and learn. Examples would be Peggle or any number of Wii games. A 'hardcore' game can be described as one with a high skill cap or learning curve, that has a lot of competition (or depth in the case of RPGs). Examples would be most FPS games, RPGs, and most RTS games.

 

[Taerdin]

There is no 'hardcore console' or 'casual console', there are just consoles, just like there are no 'hardcore games' there are just games, and you can only be hardcore at games in particular.

So the old definition gamers made up for the words is allowed to still apply but the new definition sweeping the gamer 'scene' is not? Is there any real logic to this?

Maybe you don't like people making this distinction between 'casual' and 'hardcore' but its already been made, you can't just make a thread on an internet forum and be like 'HALT WORLD! I COMMAND ENGLISH TO WORK THE WAY I WANT IT TOOOO!'

People make up unnecessary words, phrases, and classifications all the time. But once one is embraced into our language it tends to stick for quite a while. Like how inline skates became 'rollerblades', or how own got upgraded (or downgraded I suppose) to 'pwn' in the gaming world.

Is that your next thread? How 'pwn' isnt a word and english needs to hit the undo button for that too? I'm sorry... but sadly thats not how it seems to work

 

[IntoxicatedKnight]

Agreed, imagine the next iterations of the Xbox and Playstation marketing themselves as 'more hardcore' than the other, it's stupid, whilst the next Nintendo console sells billions because it's just bothered about the fun factor and involving everyone.

[EDIT] Hopefully Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo don't come to thinking solely about an unreal 'type' of gamer. The above is just an example btw.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

I would define a hardcore game as one that requires an investment of a large amount of time and effort from the gamer to complete or become competent at.

I agree. A 'casual' game is one that can be played in small increments, or doesn't require a lot of time to pick up and learn. Examples would be Peggle or any number of Wii games. A 'hardcore' game can be described as one with a high skill cap or learning curve, that has a lot of competition (or depth in the case of RPGs). Examples would be most FPS games, RPGs, and most RTS games.

Then there are what I would consider borderline games like Halo, Street Fighter and Gears that a lot of first time gamers enjoy due to thier accesibility and the option to play on Casual and enjoy the fireworks, and the harcore can enjoy for thier deeper challenges or complexities if they so wish.

Gears 2 was laughably easy on Normal for the most part but I remember thinking that I would have been grateful as hell for this fact if I was a beginner gamer who was looking for something that wouldn't be a total joy killer due to repeated deaths.

I'd consider Fallout 3 pretty hardcore, (even though I know fans of the previous ones consider it casual by comparison) along with stuff like Mass Effect, Bioshock, COD4, and anything online.

By the way Metallica in 4 weeks [does devil horns and plays air guitar to Orion]

 

[Chrissyluky]

I have to disagree there are games that are hardcore there are games so complicated they take up a huge chunk of time.(and please dont flame me for this but its true) noone using a console is a hardcore gamer there i said it if your using a console your not hardcore. i didnt realise this until i stopped using my xbox and started using my pc the pc users go so far in depth on the games they really love like left 4 dead that you have to change to see it.

 

[nevernow]

The most bullshitty of all things is the concept that every gamer is either hardcore or casual. I mean, I believe the majority of people who play games are neither.

 

[lostclause]

A hardcore gamer is any person capable of beating you in your favourite game. (joke)

No seriously, I don't get this hardcore label thing. There are people who are really good at games, kudos to them but no need to label something that speaks for itself. I know when I've been owned by a really experienced player in Halo, you don't need to tell me he/she's hardcore (and you don't need to tea-bag me either...) >|(

And as for "hardcore" consoles... don't make me laugh. Super Mario 64 wasn't what you'd describe as "hardcore" but it still had me tearing my hair out and barking at the moon after getting to the later missions. Being able to collect all 150 or God knows how many stars in a human lifetime is "hardcore" play, merely playing gears of war is not.

Basically I agree with this. Maybe the term should be replaced with 'veteran' or something when applied to games because there is little difference between being hardcore at a simple game like peggle or being hardcore at a complex game like bioshock.

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

There is no 'hardcore console' or 'casual console', there are just consoles, just like there are no 'hardcore games' there are just games, and you can only be hardcore at games in particular.

So the old definition gamers made up for the words is allowed to still apply but the new definition sweeping the gamer 'scene' is not? Is there any real logic to this?

Maybe you don't like people making this distinction between 'casual' and 'hardcore' but its already been made, you can't just make a thread on an internet forum and be like 'HALT WORLD! I COMMAND ENGLISH TO WORK THE WAY I WANT IT TOOOO!'

People make up unnecessary words, phrases, and classifications all the time. But once one is embraced into our language it tends to stick for quite a while. Like how inline skates became 'rollerblades', or how own got upgraded (or downgraded I suppose) to 'pwn' in the gaming world.

Is that your next thread? How 'pwn' isnt a word and english needs to hit the undo button for that too? I'm sorry... but sadly thats not how it seems to work

The problem is, that gamers seem to throw these titles around without actually knowing what makes games hardcore and casual. Essentially most games that are being called hardcore are being played by people who play games casually, and Peggle is being played in championships. What makes hardcore games that, and what makes games games? See the above examples and such, or my examples. In which case, perhaps you could explain it to me then.

And also, this is a rant thread. I'm not sure what you were exactly expecting. Rant threads don't consist of 'okay well I know I may not be right here...' they consist of someone ranting while believing they are completely right, and then forum members telling them whether they are or not. You would be one of the people who believe I am incorrect. As you can see, I am not alone in this lack of understanding for the hardcore game and hardcore console label.

 

[Chipperz]

I'm a hardcore gamer. I own all three consoles and a gaming PC. I own 3 copies of Fallout 3. At any one time, I can be in the process of completing three to four games. Often at the same time. I can get 100% perfect on every Warcraft Peggle level. I play games because I enjoy games, and I feel this makes me more of a hardcore gamer than someone who plays one game "because that's the hardcore game".

I also support new people coming into gaming, becuase I'm hardcore enough to realise that I'm not the only person who should be allowed to enjoy games.

 

[Taerdin]

There is no 'hardcore console' or 'casual console', there are just consoles, just like there are no 'hardcore games' there are just games, and you can only be hardcore at games in particular.

So the old definition gamers made up for the words is allowed to still apply but the new definition sweeping the gamer 'scene' is not? Is there any real logic to this?

Maybe you don't like people making this distinction between 'casual' and 'hardcore' but its already been made, you can't just make a thread on an internet forum and be like 'HALT WORLD! I COMMAND ENGLISH TO WORK THE WAY I WANT IT TOOOO!'

People make up unnecessary words, phrases, and classifications all the time. But once one is embraced into our language it tends to stick for quite a while. Like how inline skates became 'rollerblades', or how own got upgraded (or downgraded I suppose) to 'pwn' in the gaming world.

Is that your next thread? How 'pwn' isnt a word and english needs to hit the undo button for that too? I'm sorry... but sadly thats not how it seems to work

The problem is, that gamers seem to throw these titles around without actually knowing what makes games hardcore and casual. Essentially most games that are being called hardcore are being played by people who play games casually, and Peggle is being played in championships. What makes hardcore games that, and what makes games games? See the above examples and such, or my examples. In which case, perhaps you could explain it to me then.

And also, this is a rant thread. I'm not sure what you were exactly expecting. Rant threads don't consist of 'okay well I know I may not be right here...' they consist of someone ranting while believing they are completely right, and then forum members telling them whether they are or not. You would be one of the people who believe I am incorrect. As you can see, I am not alone in this lack of understanding for the hardcore game and hardcore console label.

There are companies that self proclaim themselves as 'casual' game makers. To my mind the distinction is pretty simple, but hard to explain. One way I could attempt to explain it is any game that anyone could pick up and play even if it was their first game ever could be considered casual. I bought my girlfriend Samantha Swift and the Roses of Athena (you can google it if you want [hell you're probably too lazy so here [http://store.steampowered.com/app/16020/] ]).

Anyways this game not only is listed on the steam store specifically as a 'casual' game, but even my girlfriend who is not a gamer, and lacks a lot of common knowledge that most gamers have, picked this game up almost instantly and beat it in like a day or two.

Now I would call something like Morrowwind a 'hardcore' game (maybe not the best example but its what came to mind). This is a game where if I put it on, put my girlfriend in front of the computer, she would be completely lost, get angered, and probably want to hit me. She wouldnt understand what half the stats meant, what to do, etc. Yes I think theres little tooltips you can mouse over, but she would start to read some of the more complicated ones, or see that theres a lot to this game and just get overwhelmed. A game that takes like 60-100 hours to beat, assumes prior knowledge of the gamer (or nongamer), and is perhaps a bit needlessly complex would be what I consider 'hardcore'.

Other games that fall in this category are like... Warcraft III, and most other strategy games, any hardcore business sim with far too many things to handle, games that dont explain themselves well (the kind of game where I dont realize I can do something until half way through the game and it would've saved me a real headache), very hard and/or difficult rpgs... all could be hardcore games. I could go on... but I dont know if I'm actually properly explaining what I mean to explain so I'm stopping here.

Hope this made my definitions a bit more clear. I'm going to continue using these words around my friend and girlfriend, and they're likely going to continue to know exactly what I mean.

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

There is no 'hardcore console' or 'casual console', there are just consoles, just like there are no 'hardcore games' there are just games, and you can only be hardcore at games in particular.

So the old definition gamers made up for the words is allowed to still apply but the new definition sweeping the gamer 'scene' is not? Is there any real logic to this?

Maybe you don't like people making this distinction between 'casual' and 'hardcore' but its already been made, you can't just make a thread on an internet forum and be like 'HALT WORLD! I COMMAND ENGLISH TO WORK THE WAY I WANT IT TOOOO!'

People make up unnecessary words, phrases, and classifications all the time. But once one is embraced into our language it tends to stick for quite a while. Like how inline skates became 'rollerblades', or how own got upgraded (or downgraded I suppose) to 'pwn' in the gaming world.

Is that your next thread? How 'pwn' isnt a word and english needs to hit the undo button for that too? I'm sorry... but sadly thats not how it seems to work

The problem is, that gamers seem to throw these titles around without actually knowing what makes games hardcore and casual. Essentially most games that are being called hardcore are being played by people who play games casually, and Peggle is being played in championships. What makes hardcore games that, and what makes games games? See the above examples and such, or my examples. In which case, perhaps you could explain it to me then.

And also, this is a rant thread. I'm not sure what you were exactly expecting. Rant threads don't consist of 'okay well I know I may not be right here...' they consist of someone ranting while believing they are completely right, and then forum members telling them whether they are or not. You would be one of the people who believe I am incorrect. As you can see, I am not alone in this lack of understanding for the hardcore game and hardcore console label.

There are companies that self proclaim themselves as 'casual' game makers. To my mind the distinction is pretty simple, but hard to explain. One way I could attempt to explain it is any game that anyone could pick up and play even if it was their first game ever could be considered casual. I bought my girlfriend Samantha Swift and the Roses of Athena (you can google it if you want [hell you're probably too lazy so here [http://store.steampowered.com/app/16020/] ]).

Anyways this game not only is listed on the steam store specifically as a 'casual' game, but even my girlfriend who is not a gamer, and lacks a lot of common knowledge that most gamers have, picked this game up almost instantly and beat it in like a day or two.

Now I would call something like Morrowwind a 'hardcore' game (maybe not the best example but its what came to mind). This is a game where if I put it on, put my girlfriend in front of the computer, she would be completely lost, get angered, and probably want to hit me. She wouldnt understand what half the stats meant, what to do, etc. Yes I think theres little tooltips you can mouse over, but she would start to read some of the more complicated ones, or see that theres a lot to this game and just get overwhelmed. A game that takes like 60-100 hours to beat, assumes prior knowledge of the gamer (or nongamer), and is perhaps a bit needlessly complex would be what I consider 'hardcore'.

Other games that fall in this category are like... Warcraft III, and most other strategy games, any hardcore business sim with far too many things to handle, games that dont explain themselves well (the kind of game where I dont realize I can do something until half way through the game and it would've saved me a real headache), very hard and/or difficult rpgs... all could be hardcore games. I could go on... but I dont know if I'm actually properly explaining what I mean to explain so I'm stopping here.

Hope this made my definitions a bit more clear. I'm going to continue using these words around my friend and girlfriend, and they're likely going to continue to know exactly what I mean.

Casual games are defined as such by their makers, but 'hardcore' games are not. Again the example of Mario or sonic is that these games are not labelled to be casual, they are easy to grasp yet difficult to complete properly, like Mario 2/Lost Levels. Smash bros is easy to pick up, anyone can play it, but you aren't beating an expert player without showing a similar level of skill. Would you consider Devil May Cry to be a hardcore game or just a game? Once you read the manual, you pick it up and play it, it's easy enough to understand, it then becomes a concept of skill because the game itself can be punishing. Same thing with Ninja Gaiden. You could say that Oblivion is complex in understanding the mechanics of the game, but once you do, it's not a difficult game that people who only play games an hour a day can't play, just a long game that people who play it an hour a day don't have the time for. The concept becomes blurred.

It's probably the reason 'hardcore' games have not been labelled as such. Back in the day no game was called hardcore really. Final Fantasy was just a game, yet a friend who beat all the dark aeons and Penance was considered to be hardcore because of the number of hours clocked on it and the fact that he beat them without Yojimbo. Hardcore gaming appeared to stem from how certain games were played, not whether you played them or not.

It appears that the hardcore game term seemed to only surface once casual games appeared, and gamers wished to distance themselves from the aformentioned genre that they considered to be the poison of the industry. At least this is what I think. At the end of the day I'm not attempting to tell you that you are not allowed to use such terms as you wish, I could use the word carrot to describe a strawberry and no one could tell me otherwise. But I'm just laying down what I consider to be the brass tracks of my rant. It's just a case of speaking one's mind and hoping I have informed people along the way.

 

[Taerdin]

There is no 'hardcore console' or 'casual console', there are just consoles, just like there are no 'hardcore games' there are just games, and you can only be hardcore at games in particular.

So the old definition gamers made up for the words is allowed to still apply but the new definition sweeping the gamer 'scene' is not? Is there any real logic to this?

Maybe you don't like people making this distinction between 'casual' and 'hardcore' but its already been made, you can't just make a thread on an internet forum and be like 'HALT WORLD! I COMMAND ENGLISH TO WORK THE WAY I WANT IT TOOOO!'

People make up unnecessary words, phrases, and classifications all the time. But once one is embraced into our language it tends to stick for quite a while. Like how inline skates became 'rollerblades', or how own got upgraded (or downgraded I suppose) to 'pwn' in the gaming world.

Is that your next thread? How 'pwn' isnt a word and english needs to hit the undo button for that too? I'm sorry... but sadly thats not how it seems to work

The problem is, that gamers seem to throw these titles around without actually knowing what makes games hardcore and casual. Essentially most games that are being called hardcore are being played by people who play games casually, and Peggle is being played in championships. What makes hardcore games that, and what makes games games? See the above examples and such, or my examples. In which case, perhaps you could explain it to me then.

And also, this is a rant thread. I'm not sure what you were exactly expecting. Rant threads don't consist of 'okay well I know I may not be right here...' they consist of someone ranting while believing they are completely right, and then forum members telling them whether they are or not. You would be one of the people who believe I am incorrect. As you can see, I am not alone in this lack of understanding for the hardcore game and hardcore console label.

There are companies that self proclaim themselves as 'casual' game makers. To my mind the distinction is pretty simple, but hard to explain. One way I could attempt to explain it is any game that anyone could pick up and play even if it was their first game ever could be considered casual. I bought my girlfriend Samantha Swift and the Roses of Athena (you can google it if you want [hell you're probably too lazy so here [http://store.steampowered.com/app/16020/] ]).

Anyways this game not only is listed on the steam store specifically as a 'casual' game, but even my girlfriend who is not a gamer, and lacks a lot of common knowledge that most gamers have, picked this game up almost instantly and beat it in like a day or two.

Now I would call something like Morrowwind a 'hardcore' game (maybe not the best example but its what came to mind). This is a game where if I put it on, put my girlfriend in front of the computer, she would be completely lost, get angered, and probably want to hit me. She wouldnt understand what half the stats meant, what to do, etc. Yes I think theres little tooltips you can mouse over, but she would start to read some of the more complicated ones, or see that theres a lot to this game and just get overwhelmed. A game that takes like 60-100 hours to beat, assumes prior knowledge of the gamer (or nongamer), and is perhaps a bit needlessly complex would be what I consider 'hardcore'.

Other games that fall in this category are like... Warcraft III, and most other strategy games, any hardcore business sim with far too many things to handle, games that dont explain themselves well (the kind of game where I dont realize I can do something until half way through the game and it would've saved me a real headache), very hard and/or difficult rpgs... all could be hardcore games. I could go on... but I dont know if I'm actually properly explaining what I mean to explain so I'm stopping here.

Hope this made my definitions a bit more clear. I'm going to continue using these words around my friend and girlfriend, and they're likely going to continue to know exactly what I mean.

Casual games are defined as such by their makers, but 'hardcore' games are not. Again the example of Mario or sonic is that these games are not labelled to be casual, they are easy to grasp yet difficult to complete properly, like Mario 2/Lost Levels. Smash bros is easy to pick up, anyone can play it, but you aren't beating an expert player without showing a similar level of skill. Would you consider Devil May Cry to be a hardcore game or just a game? Once you read the manual, you pick it up and play it, it's easy enough to understand, it then becomes a concept of skill because the game itself can be punishing. Same thing with Ninja Gaiden. You could say that Oblivion is complex in understanding the mechanics of the game, but once you do, it's not a difficult game that people who only play games an hour a day can't play, just a long game that people who play it an hour a day don't have the time for. The concept becomes blurred.

It's probably the reason 'hardcore' games have not been labelled as such. Back in the day no game was called hardcore really. Final Fantasy was just a game, yet a friend who beat all the dark aeons and Penance was considered to be hardcore because of the number of hours clocked on it and the fact that he beat them without Yojimbo. Hardcore gaming appeared to stem from how certain games were played, not whether you played them or not.

It appears that the hardcore game term seemed to only surface once casual games appeared, and gamers wished to distance themselves from the aformentioned genre that they considered to be the poison of the industry. At least this is what I think. At the end of the day I'm not attempting to tell you that you are not allowed to use such terms as you wish, I could use the word carrot to describe a strawberry and no one could tell me otherwise. But I'm just laying down what I consider to be the brass tracks of my rant. It's just a case of speaking one's mind and hoping I have informed people along the way.

Just to clarify a tiny bit because I'm not quite sure you understand what I'm talking about...

Casual is used to describe games that have accessibility, if someone is not a gamer they can handle playing this game, and will have fun with it.

Therefore as hardcore would seem to be the opposite of casual, all hardcore really means when describing a type of game is that its not accessible to nongamers. If my girlfriend gets frustrated when trying to play a game it is likely hardcore. Mario and Sonic, your random little examples of easy to pick up games that are hard to complete fully well... these have the accessibility but have also built in some little extras for those who are willing to invest the time. They are not hardcore games, my girlfriend loves mario and yoshis island and they are simple. If anything in todays gaming atmosphere they would be considered casual, as would most Wii games tbh...

From your last post I can't even tell if we're debating something or even discussing it. You seem to be bringing other discussions into what I'm trying to say that don't really illuminate or pertain to anything I'm saying. I'm not talking about gamers but rather classifications of games, and it seems to me to make perfect sense... :S

I know its hard for a long time gamer to understand how frustrating certain games can be to nongamers, but I learned that quickly through attempting to play games with my girlfriend. She'll play Plants vs Zombies just fine for hours, but put her in front of RE5 or Left 4 Dead and she gets frustrated, and complains. I'm not saying those are considered hardcore per se, she can actually manage to play them somewhat before hating her life, but I was just trying to make the distinction between accessibility levels for nongamers.

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

-snip-

I can see where you are coming from, I do (predictably) disagree, but I can see where you are coming from.