Harley Quinn: Addressing the Critics of "Crazy Sexy Cool"

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Gorrath

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Aggieknight said:
Ishigami said:
Hehe... a though occurred to me. Maybe if you stop being a feminists you may also stop overanalyzing, being judgmental and always on. Just saying.
Or maybe the "antifeminist" crowd could grow up, quit objectifying women, and accept that women are unique and different from men as well as deserve to be respected for their own ideas, thoughts, and feelings. Women have so much more that they can give society if we stop trying to force them into being "the girl on the guy's arm cheering him on" or "the princess that needs saving" and let them be who they want to be.

Then again, I consider myself a feminist...and I'm a guy.

Liana,

Fascinating article. Thank you for sharing.
As a feminist as well I have to ask, do you stand against objectification merely on principal? Would you claim there is something inherently immoral or unethical about objectification? Is only the objectification of female characters a problem or is all objectification a problem? If objectification is inherently immoral or unethical, why? Do you equate the objectification of female characters with objectification of women? If so, why?
 

Cowabungaa

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McMarbles said:
I can't even understand what she sees in him any more. The Joker has gotten so completely devoid of any shred of humanity lately that I can't even conceive of anyone being attracted to him.
She's not exactly mentally healthy y'know. Stockholm Syndrome, codependency, psychological conditioning by the Joker, that sort of thing.
 

w00tage

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The problem with the stereotype is that it's not a stereotype. Attractive women are actual targets for sex abusers, since getting one to accept the abuse is more gratifying to the ego of the abuser than getting an unattractive woman to accept it. And the kind of deep dependency necessary to force someone to live with that kind of horrible treatment opens the door for a number of psychological problems.

So it's the abuse that causes the crazy, not the other way around.
 

JimB

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Liana Kerzner said:
Harley Quinn is a lot of different things to a lot of different cosplayers. But the thing that tends to come up a lot with critics is the sexy depiction of a character in an abusive relationship.
Lord, ain't that a can of worms, and one I'm disinclined to try to have a conversation about in this environment. Let me limit my response to simply saying, Ms. Kerzner, your aversion to dressing as Harley Quinn makes perfect sense to me, and I'm glad you articulated it to give people something to think about.
 

JimB

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Houseman said:
Or, you know, maybe people cosplay as Harley because they think she looks cool, and is a cool character, and there isn't some deeper, hidden meaning about abusive relationships.
The first sentence of the article's second paragraph acknowledges this, so I am not sure whom this is intended in response to.
 

JimB

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Houseman said:
JimB said:
Houseman said:
Or, you know, maybe people cosplay as Harley because they think she looks cool, and is a cool character, and there isn't some deeper, hidden meaning about abusive relationships.
The first sentence of the article's second paragraph acknowledges this, so I am not sure whom this is intended in response to.
I don't see where it says that.
I...really don't know how to be any more clear about where it is. Do you need me to quote it?

the first sentence of the article's second paragraph said:
Every person who cosplays Harley has a slightly different answer to the first question, and Manda Cowled gave a great one in the video that I won't duplicate here.
The "first question" she refers to is this one, found two sentences earlier:

the penultimate sentence of the article's first paragraph said:
How could any woman, they ask, want to embody a victim of domestic abuse?
So...yeah. It's right there. She knows people all have their own answers, and that some of them are, "I don't care about that aspect."
 

Fox12

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Jun 6, 2013
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Jake Martinez said:
Obviously people are going to always have their own interpretations of characters, but I think when people merely dismiss her as a chirpy bimbo, they're kind of not getting the point.
I largely agree, and I think she's a fascinating character, especially in her original incarnation.

However, the problem is that sometimes she is portrayed as a chirpy bimbo. That's the problem with a shared universe, sometimes the person who misses the point is the writer. I don't think the Mortal Kombat guys were thinking that much about it when they included her in the game, for instance. In those situations I think it can be argued that her portrayal can potentially be pretty negative.
 

JimB

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Houseman said:
"Everybody has different answers" is not equal to "people cosplay as her because she's cool," from my interpretation.
So you think Ms. Kerzner is simultaneously saying that no two people have the same reason and that no people at all have the reason "because she's cool?" Okay. I disagree with that reading about as much as I can, but if you think there's a silent population out there being unfairly represented in their decision to cosplay Harley Quinn, then by all means, do continue to stick up for them.
 

mecegirl

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I love Harley when she's done well. For example, her interactions with Black Canary and Green Arrow in the injustice comics. But I just don't under stand the hot topicish costume changes. I think the way she looked in Assult on Arkham wasn't too bad.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...0/3803211-tumblr_n50jkvywin1rl14rno5_1280.png
But the original is my favorite. I guess I just don't get why they feel the need to make her the stereotypical scantly clad villain. It's more interesting,and quite refreshing, to see her fully covered while still being overtly sexual.
 

Callate

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I'm not going to touch the issue of whether playing HQ is somehow "wrong"; it seems judgmental to me in a way that's unhealthy.

But she's an interesting character, from what I've read and seen. Somehow, a woman who was smart enough to earn an advanced degree in psychology, brave enough to take that degree to a place like Arkham, and confident enough to think that her training would apply to someone like the Joker- went terribly, terribly wrong. Harleen Quinzel took on a persona that made a great display of not being smart, or brave, or confident.

And the real horror is that one gets the impression that she chose to do so- continues to choose to do so.

Maybe part of the fascination of a character like Harley is that she just let everything go. That her exposure to Joker brought out the idea that she didn't have to be caring and professional and careful, that she could be violent and wild and frivolous instead, and get away with it. And perhaps part of her attachment to the Joker is a belief that she couldn't be like that by herself.

It's okay to want to let out your "wild side"; people have been doing that with costumes for a hell of a long time before anyone ever uttered the word "cosplay". But acting as though someone picking this particular means to do so requires intense scrutiny and criticism, even condemnation, seems like an unfortunate and almost puritanical kind of restraint.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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You know it's funny, because most people who like the character, including girls, tend to focus on the zany, unpredictable, and psychotically violent side of the character. Girls in particular seem to like her because they sort of wish they could be that way sometimes, they aren't focusing on the "bad relationships" aspect of the character. Harley is one of the first female comic characters to do that schtick, and has her own style.

I'll also point out that the strip shown above aside, Harley has changed a lot in the comics and is far more independent. She can be quite upbeat and amusing as a bad guy, especially when doing her own thing.

But yes it is true, having mental illness or brain damage (take this coming from someone with the latter) tends to be more pathetic than it is exciting or dangerous. That said I don't have any real problems with the way mental illness is portrayed in comic books and such, they aren't intended to be treatises on mental health. The only real problem I have with it is that while I like a lot of insane characters, insanity seems to be a justification for a lot of bad writers to not have to really think through the motives for their characters.

That said, tastes do vary.