Has "A Song of Ice and Fire" ruined fantasy?

[bartholen_v1legacy]

To me it actually did the exact opposite. It proved to me that there's still fantasy that has something new to bring to the table instead of the age-old "Ancient Evil has awakened and Destined Hero must defeat him with a crew of Loyal Companions" routine. Though I wonder if that type of thing is extremely rare, since most fantasy books I see in the library drive me away by merely their titles.

To be honest, I don't think GoT is that good.

I've watched the first 3 or 4 seasons. It does a good job at creating suspense, but a lot of the plot seemed so unrealistic to me (even for a fantasy setting) that it became annoying to watch. Through all the plot holes it kind of becomes apparent that the writer just loves certain characters and lets them get away with anything, and a lot of the others are expendable. Funnily enough, it's usually the bad sides and hardships of a character that make them interesting, making the expendable characters the ones I enjoyed watching the most, and making it all the more annoying to watch when they inevitably got killed off or otherwise maimed just to serve as a form of character development for the characters I despised watching.

Also, the hundreds of castrated men and various scenes dedicated to the castration of men made me uncomfortable to say the least. I'm kind of weirded out by the fact that George apparently found the subject to be so interesting that it has to come back time and time again.

Care to mention some of those plot holes? Because as far as the show is concerned, I don't think there's been a significant one so far in the first 3 seasons, if any at all.

 

[Vault101]

Yes, it pretty much was, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter(if you want to count it) are really the rare exceptions that managed to set up our standards. While Sci-fi, ironically, has a long and prestigious history, fantasy has pretty much been a cesspool of cheap low quality rip-offs and has only gotten marginally better in the twentieth century after Peter Jackson showed the world the genre didn't have to suck.

I think you mean the 21st century

I don't know if youre refering to films but LOTR did cause something Like Narnia to be "lord of the rings-fied" and ironically enough the Hobbit as well

 

[Verlander]

I really enjoy the series, and am looking forward to the next book. Very much so.


However...


It's not that well written, there, I said it. Reading it, I can tell that his background is in television series writing. The books introduce characters and plot threads the way that a television series would, particularly in the later novels.

Also...

Spoiler

The Jon Snow storyline and apparent fate is far too similar to Rob's

Martin hasn't made much effort to close storylines or plot threads, and I doubt he'll be able to. This will make the finished product a bit, well, awkward.

 

[Olas]

Yes, it pretty much was, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter(if you want to count it) are really the rare exceptions that managed to set up our standards. While Sci-fi, ironically, has a long and prestigious history, fantasy has pretty much been a cesspool of cheap low quality rip-offs and has only gotten marginally better in the twentieth century after Peter Jackson showed the world the genre didn't have to suck.

I think you mean the 21st century

I don't know if youre refering to films but LOTR did cause something Like Narnia to be "lord of the rings-fied" and ironically enough the Hobbit as well

I was referring to the twenty first century, my bad. The whole nineteen hundreds twentieth century thing is awkward and easy to mess up. Let's just call the first hundred years the zero'th century so that it can match up sensibly and be done with this nonsense. Anyway, ya, naming good fantasy films before Fellowship of the Ring is kinda hard.

 

[tippy2k2]

I've accidentally let stuff slip a few times. Other times I've been outright chatting about the books with other people only for others nearby to whinge about it.

Now, I can understand not spoiling the TV show for people, and for people being a bit miffed when it happens, but I do think it takes the piss a little bit when it comes to Game of Thrones - people treat the plot like it's a state secret, the revelation of which causes the world as we know it to come crashing down.

To be honest, some peoples reactions to GoT spoilers almost make me WANT to ruin it for them out of spite.

I'm a **** like that.

There's an accidental spoiler (like you were talking to your friends when a stranger runs up to you and tackles you to the ground because you're about to say something about a TV Show he might start watching at some point in his life maybe). I can forgive that for I can't expect you to never talk about anything with anyone ever because there's a chance that I might be around to hear it. Then there's what he did...

NOTE: No actual spoilers will be here for those who are curious but do not wish to risk it

Myself and a group of co-workers were sitting at our cubes. I own the Blu-Rays of the entire series; co-worker 1 already watched GoT on HBO, co-worker 2 just got done borrowing my Blu-Ray, and co-worker 3 was just about to start. We were all sitting around talking about the characters that we like (and don't like). We were talking about how much we [emotion retracted to protect the innocent] this certain character and how we totally hope that they [live happily ever after or die a horrible horrible death]. The person in the cube next to us pokes his head over the wall and says [character dies] in book whatever anyway.

...

Have you ever seen "Village of the damned"? I imagine our glares his way looked a LOT like the little kids when they are about to psychically murder the shit out of someone. I care where you fall on the "Are spoilers OK or what's the time limit" debate; I can't imagine there is ANYONE out there who would look at that situation and say that what he did was alright.

EDIT: Also, this is the last time I'll talk about spoilers and what's OK. That's not what the thread is about but I wanted to clarify what happened for those on the edge of their seat (I assume).

 

[Branindain]

I'm a little surprised at all the Mr & Mrs Eddings love in here, I can't stand their work. I liked it for a little while, then it started to seem like they had to solve every conflict within the span of the next ten pages, and I got more and more bored. Plus the sarcastic writing style stopped me from getting invested. Ah well, each to their own.

OT: I know the feeling you're getting at. Martin's strong suit is characterisation, he writes much deeper and more interesting characters than other fantasy authors I've come across, and it does make other works seem simplistic for a while, but it wears off pretty quick. At least until he gets around to the next one I suppose, if he ever does (looking at you, corpse of Robert Jordan).

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

I can only speak for the TV show, but its tainted me slightly. the fact that people can die, and it's pretty much anyone.
I watch other shows, and when our star is in danger, it doesnt hold me anymore. No ones killing the star off, and even if they did, you know theshows going to die not long after.

Same with Breaking bad, it was predetermined that it would have a start, middle, end.
Now to me shows seem to be dragging the story, making sure not to ruin the status quo, so we can get as many seasons out there as possible, without mixing things up too much for the dumb viewer who could never accept change. My wifes watching Hostages, which i thought was a good idea, but its lost me now due to it being dragged out to fit the formula of how many eps a US Season should be.

 

[TheHeinousAnus]

Books are like people. Everyone is unique. A Song of Ice and Fire doesn't diminish any other book out there by being good at what it does. Simply put A Song of Ice and Fire is not something I'd pick up and read if I wanted a small quirky story, its not something I'd read to wind down. Every book is written different for different reasons and because of this they have different affects on people in different ways. George R.R. Martin has wrote a master piece, no question about that, but I'm not always after a master piece.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

snip

It's been a while since I watched it all, but pretty much the entire rise to power by the dragon lady made no sense to me. Mainly the fact that she starts off penniless and powerless, and never really does anything to get the pennies and power she then musters. She just goes to some dude who has lots of pennies and power and then ... She gets all of said pennies and power because...? She is the dragon lady. That's pretty much everything there is to it.
Sure, there's some sort of scheming going on where she basically robs everyone of their power and pennies, but that is just arbitrarily shoved in there to give it some semblance of logic. It's also rather weird how everyone seems to fall for it every single time, and how everyone seems to accept the fact that she blatantly robs everyone with power and pennies.
It's one of the examples where the writer has a thing for a certain character and lets them get away with anything, and just forces situations to work out in that character's favour.

Sorry, but it's not a plot hole if you weren't paying attention (though you not remembering a single name should have told me something). A plot hole is a paradox, something that either goes against the entire setup of the story or breaks the established rules of the fictional universe entirely.

Let me explain it: I don't know if you meant Khal Drogo or Xaro Daxos by a "guy with pennies", but in either case there are no plot holes present. When Khal Drogo dies, Daenerys doesn't get any of his fortunes. The khalasar disbands, and she is left with nothing but those most loyal to her. In the case of Daxos she is now the only person in the world who has living dragons in her care, which are more valuable than anything in the world. Because of the power the dragons bring, everyone is trying to scheme around her, either by backstabbing her or getting her affection. Because of the latter, Daxos has the entire council of Qarth murdered, leaving him effectively the single ruler of Qarth. After Daenerys escapes from Pyat Pree, she locks Daxos inside his vault and robs him, giving her all the riches she has. Now tell me, where is there a plot hole in there?

 

[Auberon]

ASOIAF was a fresh change from the age-old paradigm of "Good Hero defeats Evil Villain blah blah blah". One could argue it started with Witcher, but the series is apparently niche outside Poland.

On the spoilers... 5 years ago it would have been perfectly fine to pull out a megaphone and yell everyone who dies. Just because HBO serialized it doesn't mean the plot became equivalent of state secrets.

 

[Charli]

Lol, read some fanfictions that'll broaden your expectations.

 

[mistahzig1]

The only thing this series did to me when I finished the 1st book was to throw most of my D&D novels in the trash.

As to ruining the genre?

It depends on what you tried since. I LOVE Brent Weeks and Joe Abercrombie novels, just to name them. the new generation of fantasy writers are awesome IMO so no worries for me on that account

 

[Ishal]

Martin is good, maybe even great at what he does. But his stories aren't perfect. They aren't even close to eclipsing the rest of the fantasy genre. Wheel of Time, King Killer Chronicles, and anything written by Brandon Sanderson is worth checking out. Sanderson is the pinnacle for creating magic systems and rules within a fantasy setting. It doesn't get much better than him.

I'm sure some people like The Witcher, but I can only take so much backstabbing and "drama" between, *ahem* "interesting characters." It's all just a song and dance with a lot of these books and modern media. Shrink the focus down to micro stories and micro arcs revolving around characters and how their particular threads intertwine, all while everything else suffers. It works though, we see threads cropping up all the time where people debate and discuss with whom they love or hate and why. I like certain characters in ASIAF, and I hate others. But the whole rigmarole has gotten boring and uninteresting. I don't hold any particular love for the monomyth, but with it usually comes a bigger scope and more things that can catch my interest. If that means I'll go back to reading schlock, or fan fiction, oh well. At least I'll actually be entertained.

 

[tgbennett30]

[quote} I'm a little surprised at all the Mr & Mrs Eddings love in here, I can't stand their work. I liked it for a little while, then it started to seem like they had to solve every conflict within the span of the next ten pages, and I got more and more bored. Plus the sarcastic writing style stopped me from getting invested. Ah well, each to their own.[/quote]

Perfectly stated in that last line.

While there are some overall aspects of "quality" I think most of us could agree on, our own individual tastes may vary quite wildly. I thought The Belgariad was funny as hell, and it played subtly with a few tropes that most fantasy prior to it took more seriously. But if it's not your cup of tea, I understand. In the same fashion, someone here mentioned Name of the Wind and Wise Man's Fear - I liked the first, had some interesting ideas and characterizations, but the second left me genuinely angry when I was done, I disagreed with so many of the choices the author made. But I know plenty folks here love it (hell, I tumbled to it when Gabe posted that comic of Kvothe having sex with two ninjas, LOL).

Point being, try lots of different authors, see whose style you like. And it is in fact totally possible to like pulpy Conan stories full of mindless action *and* gritty political intrigue such as ASoIaF *and* goofy over-the-top satire like the "Myth Directions" series, etc. Whatever floats your boat on any given day

 

[jademunky]

Hmm, have you gotten to books 4 and 5 of the series yet? You may have to alter your high opinion of the series after that...if you've ever asked "I wonder how RR Martin's going to tie all these separate plot branches together," it seems like he's run into that exact problem. The cynic in me says that he'll probably just end a bunch of the plot branches by killing everyone off in some meaningless way, which might be "realistic" but is pretty terrible from a writer's point of view since it renders all that exposition irrelevant.

Yep, Book 4 was easily the weakest of the lot (seriously I do no give a crap about the politics of Dorne and the Iron islands, go back to the wall dammit!)

A lot of people did not seem to enjoy book 5 as much as I did. Personally I thought it was the 2nd best, just behind book 3.

Yes I am worried that he might not be able to tie all these plot-threads together in a satisfying way and will have to resort to a half-dozen red weddings to bring the story home. Or it might turn out, in the last 10 pages of the series, that it all took place in the imagination of an autistic child with a lego-set or something.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

I'm not a fan of the series. It does something which I call "character death fatigue". He kills up so many characters I just don't care about them any more, since I know that they'll die anyhow and in stupid ways.

 

[jademunky]

I still maintain the character of Harry Potter is ripped off from Neil Gaiman's Books of Magic though. Which is what you /should/ be reading.

Funny you mention, I just picked up a copy of "the ocean at the end of the lane" the other day. Have not gotten to reading it yet but I am a fan of Gaimen. Mostly from his comic books, but still.