Hating progress (fallout)

[Who Dares Wins]

What I would LOVE to see for Fallout 4 is have Bethesda build the world, make the atmospherics and the visuals and build the physical aspects of the quests

No. No. NO. NO. The atmosphere in NV was LIGHT YEARS ahead of Fallout 3 when it came to feeling like Fallout. Also, Bethesda does the QA for all their games, NV's buggines was Bethesda's fault.

Waiiit. So you are blaming bethesda for the bugginess in a game that they didn't even develop? This is the irrational hatred of bethesda that we are talking about. The writing in NV was better then the writing in F3, but the aptmosphere was far better in f3. The universe in NV didn't feel as realized as it could have been, like if they had more time vegas wouldn't have been 2 casinos and a shop.

I don't hate Bethesda. I love them, they make great games, I even love Fallout 3, I just don't think it's a good -Fallout- game. But they do QA for all games their publish. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Obsidian makes games with no bugs, hell no. I'm just stating a fact:

As with the core F:NV product, Bethesda handles most of the QA for updates and DLCs.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/189616367522055108

I don't know why I even care who did it, my version of New Vegas was practically flawless, I had about 5 bugs in 90+ hours of playing.

 

[Walter44]

A couple of things to point out.
The citadel tolerates your insanity because they need you, either that or bethesda didn't feel like writing another story for mean people.
The war killed off the majority of the population, so it wasn't until the vaults started to open that humanity started rebuilding itself. Even then there were irradiated monsters preventing any real progress from being made. There are no super mutants, death claws, or yao guai in California. As far as I know.
Why shouldn't you be able to blow up the citadel? Complaining about a choice you had the common sense not to make is pointless.

There are as many threats in California as in DC. Deathclaws, Super Mutants...no Yao Guai, I'll give you that. But Wanamingos and Floaters and Geckos and Spore Plants...and still, there are SEVERAL towns with a couple hundred inhabitants and even a republic starting out by the time of Fallout 2, which is set MORE THAN 30 YEARS before the third part. And the Vaults already opened shortly after the war. By the time Fallout 1 (2161), there were THREE tribes that had originated from Vault 15! And how do you even come to the conclusion that mutating animals only occur in DC?
My point is: Why do I have a choice without any motivation to choose the 'evil' option? And why only so late in the game? Why didn't the game let me say "F**k those pansies from the Brotherhood! I want to fight with the Enclave!" It would have been a possibility, because - as someone already pointed out - Eden himself thinks I'm a 'pure human' and therefore Enclave material. Heck, by the time I meet him for the first time I have not only fought (and won!) against his soldiers, but also Super Mutants, at least one Behemoth (granted, it was with the help of the Brotherhood, but still) and also several Raiders, Deathclaws (maybe) and a lot of common Wasteland vermin. Instead of that, I have the option of making my father, the only person who genuinely loved me and took care of me for 19 years of my life and the Brotherhood, the strongest and most loyal friends I found in the Wastes (like I said: They're so loyal, they even treat me like their only hope, even though I'm a deranged maniac who takes out entire cities...okay, in the Capital Wasteland 'entire cities' means 'about 12 people', but still) or poison a water purifier which could not only potentially kill myself, but also would leave me completely alone in a desert. Even when all mutated threats are gone, a desert is not a nice place to be. Man, that's a tough one...
If a choice is placed in a game just for having the choice of it, it's just lazy writing! It's just redundant. It's a ROLE-PLAYING GAME! I'm playing a ROLE. A character. With motivations. Even if the motivation is just "If I kill this person, I get his stuff!" it's still a better motivation than "I'll press the button and provoke my only allies, which are armed to the teeth, so that they kill me". The only motivation I would have to blow up the Citadel would be that I'm just completely nuts! And that's a veeeeeery bad motivation. In FO1, you could actually join the Master and tell him where your Vault is, so his mutant army (which was WAAAAAAAY more intelligent than the ones from DC) could slaughter one half of them and 'dip' the others into the FEV-Vats. You could even do this very early in the game. Yeah, I'll admit, by that point, your character also had no motivation whatsoever, but at least later in the game, the Master had a relatively logical plan which could be argued to convince the Vault Dweller to join his 'Unity'.

Oh, and @Ultratwinkie: Radiation is the only reason for Ghouls. FEV never became airborne, that was the plan of the Enclave in FO2 to kill all the unpure humans with their new version of the Virus.
http://www.falloutwiki.com/Ghouls

 

[KingHodor]

2. The Old World was notorious for being shitty. Everyone knew it, and no one cares to go back. Fallout 3 lived in the past, the others looked to the future.

When you first come to Klamath (the ruins of a pre-war town), the inhabitants basically treat you like an idiot savage because you're from a tribal village while they consider themselves civilized, to which your character can respond by asking them just how living in burnt-out pre-war ruins actually makes someone "civilized" (and therefore better).

Also, nostalgia can be a powerful force. Many inhabitants of former communist East Germany are getting glazed eyes when thinking back of their old communist dictatorship, despite it being such a horribly run place that they actually managed to get German engineers and craftsmen to build a bad car. Worse yet, these former communist states of Germany also have an alarming percentage of Neo-Nazis. In a less extreme way, Americans also exhibit these tendencies - look at all the people flying the Confederate flag. Heck, there is practically an ancestor cult around the American founding fathers, who - despite being extremely enlightened men for their time - would still be considered shockingly racist and sexist by today's standards.

4. Its not the presence of different weapons, its the presence of outdated ones. 90% of all guns in Fallout 3 were WWII relics, and some were even communist in origin. They rely on outdated weaponry when Fallout's world used modern weaponry. Fallout 3 was like Master Chief using a fucking blunderbuss.

Laser/Plasma rifles and other futuristic guns were actually pretty rare in Fallout 2. Many of the guns you found in Fallout 2 have been phased out by most militaries even today, like the FN FAL, the M3 Grease Gun or the Tommy Gun, while others are failed concepts like the G11 and the Jackhammer shotgun. Besides, I don't recall a lot of WW2 relics in Fallout 3 at all - the American assault rifle seems to be some sort of variation of the HK G3/CETME Modelo C, and the Chinese one is obviously an AK derivative.

5. Ghouls are actually botched FEV byproducts. They are made when an FEV infected person becomes irradiated. Since FEV is airborne, everyone is infected but at different levels. Most mutations in Fallout's world are made this way. Light FEV infection spurs change in the body in presence of radiation of any kind. Fallout was also known for trying to stay grounded in some way. Saying radiation lasts over 200 years in a world where radiation has been gone for centuries is bad writing. Fallout's purpose was NEVER being stuck in the past, and Bethesda never understood that.

There are actually different explanations on the origin of ghouls. The "light FEV exposure + lots of radiation"-version was considered canon for a long time because Chris Avellone put it in his "Fallout Bible", but apparently he eventually retconned it to just being dependent on radiation.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Ghoul#Confusion_over_origins

 

[boag]

A couple of things to point out.
The citadel tolerates your insanity because they need you, either that or bethesda didn't feel like writing another story for mean people.
The war killed off the majority of the population, so it wasn't until the vaults started to open that humanity started rebuilding itself. Even then there were irradiated monsters preventing any real progress from being made. There are no super mutants, death claws, or yao guai in California. As far as I know.
Why shouldn't you be able to blow up the citadel? Complaining about a choice you had the common sense not to make is pointless.

There are as many threats in California as in DC. Deathclaws, Super Mutants...no Yao Guai, I'll give you that. But Wanamingos and Floaters and Geckos and Spore Plants...and still, there are SEVERAL towns with a couple hundred inhabitants and even a republic starting out by the time of Fallout 2, which is set MORE THAN 30 YEARS before the third part. And the Vaults already opened shortly after the war. By the time Fallout 1 (2161), there were THREE tribes that had originated from Vault 15! And how do you even come to the conclusion that mutating animals only occur in DC?

Here is the simple explanation, take it or leave it.

Fallout 2 directly follows the events of Fallout 1.

In fallout 1 the PC character has a major stake in making that region a better place so that in Fallout 2 it is a better less dangerous place.

Fallout 3 doesnt have that luxury.

 

[brainslurper]

A couple of things to point out.
The citadel tolerates your insanity because they need you, either that or bethesda didn't feel like writing another story for mean people.
The war killed off the majority of the population, so it wasn't until the vaults started to open that humanity started rebuilding itself. Even then there were irradiated monsters preventing any real progress from being made. There are no super mutants, death claws, or yao guai in California. As far as I know.
Why shouldn't you be able to blow up the citadel? Complaining about a choice you had the common sense not to make is pointless.

There are as many threats in California as in DC. Deathclaws, Super Mutants...no Yao Guai, I'll give you that. But Wanamingos and Floaters and Geckos and Spore Plants...and still, there are SEVERAL towns with a couple hundred inhabitants and even a republic starting out by the time of Fallout 2, which is set MORE THAN 30 YEARS before the third part. And the Vaults already opened shortly after the war. By the time Fallout 1 (2161), there were THREE tribes that had originated from Vault 15! And how do you even come to the conclusion that mutating animals only occur in DC?
My point is: Why do I have a choice without any motivation to choose the 'evil' option? And why only so late in the game? Why didn't the game let me say "F**k those pansies from the Brotherhood! I want to fight with the Enclave!" It would have been a possibility, because - as someone already pointed out - Eden himself thinks I'm a 'pure human' and therefore Enclave material. Heck, by the time I meet him for the first time I have not only fought (and won!) against his soldiers, but also Super Mutants, at least one Behemoth (granted, it was with the help of the Brotherhood, but still) and also several Raiders, Deathclaws (maybe) and a lot of common Wasteland vermin. Instead of that, I have the option of making my father, the only person who genuinely loved me and took care of me for 19 years of my life and the Brotherhood, the strongest and most loyal friends I found in the Wastes (like I said: They're so loyal, they even treat me like their only hope, even though I'm a deranged maniac who takes out entire cities...okay, in the Capital Wasteland 'entire cities' means 'about 12 people', but still) or poison a water purifier which could not only potentially kill myself, but also would leave me completely alone in a desert. Even when all mutated threats are gone, a desert is not a nice place to be. Man, that's a tough one...
If a choice is placed in a game just for having the choice of it, it's just lazy writing! It's just redundant. It's a ROLE-PLAYING GAME! I'm playing a ROLE. A character. With motivations. Even if the motivation is just "If I kill this person, I get his stuff!" it's still a better motivation than "I'll press the button and provoke my only allies, which are armed to the teeth, so that they kill me". The only motivation I would have to blow up the Citadel would be that I'm just completely nuts! And that's a veeeeeery bad motivation. In FO1, you could actually join the Master and tell him where your Vault is, so his mutant army (which was WAAAAAAAY more intelligent than the ones from DC) could slaughter one half of them and 'dip' the others into the FEV-Vats. You could even do this very early in the game. Yeah, I'll admit, by that point, your character also had no motivation whatsoever, but at least later in the game, the Master had a relatively logical plan which could be argued to convince the Vault Dweller to join his 'Unity'.

Oh, and @Ultratwinkie: Radiation is the only reason for Ghouls. FEV never became airborne, that was the plan of the Enclave in FO2 to kill all the unpure humans with their new version of the Virus.
http://www.falloutwiki.com/Ghouls

Sorry, for some reason I thought he meant real california. Sounds silly now. I still think that it is safe to assume that DC got hit quite a bit harder then california during the war, so the difficulties that come from surviving on irradiated water could have prevented growth. The motivation for killing the brotherhood is "if I kill this person, I get his stuff". You are killing a lot of people, and you are getting a lot of stuff. I do agree that there should have been more options other then convince the omnipotent president to commit suicide, especially when he WANTED to join you. I feel like there was at some point plans for another option there, especially with the speech check right above the exact same thing with no speech check. I still wouldn't argue for having less choices in games.

 

[brainslurper]

What I would LOVE to see for Fallout 4 is have Bethesda build the world, make the atmospherics and the visuals and build the physical aspects of the quests, and for Obsidian to do all of the writing (but for the love of God never let Obsidian near a one or zero).

Let's hope they do good on this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGg6m7CEluE
And Obsidion didn't do that bad of a job on New Vegas, but they didn't do that great of a job either.

I thought the core game was better then F3, but the F3 DLC was far better then the FV DLC. SO MANY ACRONYMS!

 

[brainslurper]

This is the second time a thread like this about Fallout has come around, and I'm seeing the same thing as I saw before with the "lore inconsistencies".

Now, this time, will someone please explain to a non-Fallout1&2-player what these "lore inconsistencies" are and how they are so damaging to the game that it is considered to have "ruined" the series?

In regards to stories between sequels, I never see "lore inconsistency" as a viable argument for the quality of a game as long it still has a solid turn out. I know people who claim to have hated WoW:Cataclysm (a reasonable opinion), but the first thing they bring up as a huge element that ruined the game was the addition of the playable Worgan and the "lore inconsistency" it brought that "ruined" the game.

As a writer, I firmly believe that the only question an author should answer in regards to lore is not whether or not to change it but should it be changed in the interest of bettering the story.

The enclave was dead since fallout 2. Bringing them back is bad writing, especially in those numbers. The oil rig alone housed thousands of Enclave citizens before the FEV escaped, killed everyone, and before it exploded.

Black and white morality. Fallout never did that. Only two bit hacks write this shit.

Making the old world glamorous. No fallout game ever did that. The old World sucked, and everyone knew it.

The BOS never care for anyone but technology. Turning them into this huge force of white knights is another bad plot.

The technology in Fallout 3 is too outdated for Fallout's world. They had future technology, not 1950s tech. Fallout 3 limited it to 1950s tech, but left out everything else.

Fallout 3 left out modern weapons and modern energy weapons. These were not prototypes, these were commercialized things.

Fallout followed some form of logic. Making radiation stay for 200 years while the rest of the world is rad free is another bad plot hole.

FEV was never a Vault tec project. That was a top secret project in mariposa ONLY by EXECUTIVE ORDER.

The GECK is NOT a magic device. Its a compilation of tools like a first aid kit. All it had was a reactor, some machines, some holotapes, and a pen flashlight. Nothing more.

Fallout 3 was written like a bad fan fic. Period. It added nothing, and did things only for the "cool factor."

Expecting every single bit of the enclave to be wiped out in fallout 2 is also bad writing.

You wouldn't glamorize the old world if you lived in an irradiated crater?

The brotherhood split in half over it's purpose. The outcasts left because they wanted to follow the brotherhood's old ideology. This is an example of dynamic characters, not inconsistency.

Have you really gotten the point of complaining about the presence of different weapons, especially when it is for the most part consistent?

Last time I checked, we don't turn into zombies when we are irradiated. We get cancer and die. Also, is it really that unlikely that Washington DC was hit harder then everywhere else?

1. The Enclave never had the numbers of the ones in Fallout 3. After Fallout 2, they only had around 25 members to hold down a Vertibird refueling station called Navarro.

2. The Old World was notorious for being shitty. Everyone knew it, and no one cares to go back. Fallout 3 lived in the past, the others looked to the future.

3. The Brotherhood NEVER had that kind of numbers. Ever. The DC Brotherhood is gigantic with NO WAY of getting new Recruits. Even the Chicago chapter had to rely on Tribal warriors donated by their perspective tribes for protection. DC has very little people living in it, and very little importance. Not only that, but they cant protect shit meaning no tribe would ever ask them for help. Especially not outside DC itself.

4. Its not the presence of different weapons, its the presence of outdated ones. 90% of all guns in Fallout 3 were WWII relics, and some were even communist in origin. They rely on outdated weaponry when Fallout's world used modern weaponry. Fallout 3 was like Master Chief using a fucking blunderbuss.

5. Ghouls are actually botched FEV byproducts. They are made when an FEV infected person becomes irradiated. Since FEV is airborne, everyone is infected but at different levels. Most mutations in Fallout's world are made this way. Light FEV infection spurs change in the body in presence of radiation of any kind. Fallout was also known for trying to stay grounded in some way. Saying radiation lasts over 200 years in a world where radiation has been gone for centuries is bad writing. Fallout's purpose was NEVER being stuck in the past, and Bethesda never understood that.

When you are complaining about why X faction has X amount of people, you know you have no reason at all to hate on this game. Especially when the area of the game has never been represented before, it's not like interplay ever said how many brotherhood of steel people there are in DC, and the mindset of the area. For all we know from the first two, DC could have become a productive society of talking radroaches.

 

[Weentastic]

I've played everyone of the fallout games, and I have to say that I'm more pleased with bethesda's treatment of that franchise than with the elder scrolls. Older games seemed to place a lot fewer restraints on the player. In the original fallouts, you could basically apply any of the logic that existed in one part of the game to another: Kill an adult, kill a kid. talk to a nice person, talk to a bad person, be good, be evil. But they have been steadily marching towards a gaming experience where every single thing I do is moderated by "poppa developer", making sure I don't mess something up, which is kinda against the whole philosophy of freedom in open world games.

I definitely liked the moral ambiguity of the previous games, which was revisited quite satisfactorily in New Vegas. You wanted the brotherhood to be these knights in shining armor when you met them, but they aren't quite that nice. Also, I never really understood why people bashed New Vegas so much. I was perplexed why the initial release was so buggy, since they had an engine already built, but beyond technical difficulties, it felt like it was built by true fallout fans for true fallout fans.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

There was just a thread about this...
See? [http://new.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.330957-Why-is-everyone-so-down-on-Fallout-3?page=1]

Old Fallout fan's problems with Fallout 3 (not so much New Vegas) is that it inconsistent in lore and spirit to the original games. It's a good game. But it's a poor sequel to Fallout 1 and 2.

Fallout: New Vegas is given more leeway with fans of the Interplay Fallouts because it is consistent with those games' lore and it very much has the spirit (humour, themes, morality) of them as well.

I'd agree with this. I played the Fallout games when they first came out (yes I'm ancient) and I love the Bethesda attempts. I do enjoy FNV better than Fallout 3 It certainly has more of the spirit of the first two games, however I think Bethesda did a great job in reviving the IP. It could have gone a lot worse and I'm very grateful they changed the combat since it wasn't my favourite thing about the series by a long shot (that being the story and setting).

I also think that FNV has some of the best DLC made so far.

Since playing Skyrim I'm very hopeful for the next Fallout games should it come from Bethesda, they seems to have cured themselves of having 'story-less' areas. Even the smallest cave having some relevance or back story to it and they all look different as well. That will hopefully banish the big, empty, identical and pointless areas of Fallout 3.

Bethesda seem to be doing well at listening to criticism. I'm hoping they extend that to Fallout 4 should it happen.

 

[idontwannabeaschizo]

I dunno about the writing in NV, when I had to blow up the BoS just cuz' I made the Paladin the base Elder pissed me off to no end. I initially wanted to go take New Vegas and give it to the NCR so I could be a senator but again to my disappointment it wasn't written in. Factor in its INCREDIBLE amount of bugs and it isn't as hot a game as F3 was in its beginning, I say beginning because I still need to get the New Vegas DLC's so I expect raving reviews for NV then.

But as for hating progress with the new Fallouts? Mind you the fellow who wrote the Fallout Bible Chris Avellone made that document very criss-crossed and reply based than a definitive version of Canon. I prefer the Fallout Wiki, I've personally perused dozens of its pages and its a very comprehensive guide to both in-game and Canon needs. It was fan fixed in the end, but that should encourage retrospect into the Canon, not blind acceptance 'just cuz' a dev wrote about the game story. I just want MORE story and Canon and all the goodness, hurry up Fallout MMO!

I've played Fallouts 1,2,3,NV and each has its strengths and weaknesses. I do think that Fallout 3 is deserving of its title despite its flaws. (though I don't mind it being called a spin-off because of it suddenly being on the Eastern Seaboard.)

Vault 87 was a Vault Tec project, and most likely under Enclave influence, personally proven for me when in F2 they locate and open Vault 13. So FEV was most likely transfered over for parallel research and development/social experiments in keeping with other Vault Tec facilities.

The Enclave had facilities all over the US and most likely worldwide, even if they were unmanned they had the absolute best in Pre-War US technology installed so at least the numerous Verti's in DC can be explained. Personally I wonder why the Enclave isn't in MORE places, did they seriously build tons of bunkers/facilities and leave them unmanned like Raven Rock and the Crawler, not to mention the Federal Bunker at Lost Hills and others. Thats what annoys me about the Enclave not that they should be gone but they should be in at least a FEW more places.

Harold is a tree now, 'nuff said.

As for the lack of developing civilization in DC, 1: LOTS more ordinance was dropped on the US Capital than few other places in the world. 2: Raiders Raiders Raiders. 3: The canned food/guns could just come from elsewhere in the US/Canada, not like they are rooted like Harold now. 4: Vault 87 Supermutants. 5: The game, DC even in the 50's wasn't that small, they had to make everything more compact to fit in the world, and its probably hard to skin/animate/soundboard/etc for EVERY firearm in a game today, they didn't have to before. (they should have though) and finally 6: For those attentive to remember, there was speak of the Commonwealth north of DC which while smaller than the NCR should be on the same level. They'll probably expand down/up the coast and meet up with the NCR in the Midwest.

 

[idontwannabeaschizo]

OH! and one more thing.

The BoS shouldn't be scoffed for breaking tradition just because they broke with some tenets of their beliefs for the sake of story (even though they did make them a tad too white knight-ish). They have the Outcasts for any BoS fanatics, as well as the actual BoS Chapters on the West Coast and Nevada. The Midwest only being vague Canon? *shrugs* The lack of actual T-51b suits was a piss-off too, did all theirs break or something on the trek over? And you'd think the HQ of the US Armed Forces would have something not state-of-the-Arkas T-45d's. I write that down to game armour/treasure balancing though as well as general writing idiocy, or even a metaphor of the Brotherhood's decline?

 

[A-D.]

The big Problem with 3 versus New Vegas and by relation also 1 and 2 is pretty much just the lore. As well as quite a few Gameplay Decisions and Storylines.

The FEV (Forced Evolutionary Virus) was started as the PVP (Pan-Immunity Virion Project) which was initially designed to literally grant immunity against any kind of biological or chemical Weapon. You can already see that this didnt turn out well. Instead of having the desired Effect it instead created literal Super Soldiers, albeit it also made them much more aggressive. The Project was given to West Tek who developed it internally for a few Years, in part because of increased Tension with China, as well as to prevent another Outbreak of the "Plague" which swept the Nation previously, killing Millions. Due to the shift of the Research is was moved to the Mariposa Military Base for further Research and Testing. When the War broke out, West Tek was one of the Targets directly hit by one of the Nuclear Missiles fired by either side, who did it nobody really knows. The FEV got into the Atmosphere and basicly mixed with the radiation, making the Survivors largely immune to direct Contact with it.

Which was the sole Reason the Master later wanted completely clean Humans to turn into his Super Mutants, which he thought were the next logical Step. Remove anything making Humanity different and start from scratch. The Idea was rather noble on Paper, but FEV also made the Super Mutants sterile, meaning that if everyone was turned, we'd eventually die out.

Research of FEV was NEVER passed to a Vault, which while being designed as Scientific and Sociological Studies by the Enclave, the Enclave would never introduce a experimental Virus or mutagenic Substance to any one of them because it would essentially ruin everything, especially because it'd have disastrous Results. The White Noise System tested in another Vault is more likely to happen, as it can be kept local and if failure is apparent, terminated, or at least wont be a viable Threat in the future. Therefore, Super Mutants in the Capital Wasteland are illogical, they COULD have come from the West, in fact, the Storyline would suggest that easily, in that the Super Mutants fled east after the Master died, but they couldnt create more, as by that Point, Mariposa was in ruins and they couldnt simply create more FEV out of thin air.

The Enclave making a return is also another big Problem, especially since they follow the same MO that they did in Fallout 2, which means Idea Rehashing. The original Plan was to mutate the FEV into another, entirely deadly strain and release it, killing every other lifeform except those on the Oilrig or otherwise protected from its Effects, i.e. Vaults. Fallout 3 uses the same Idea but in a less overall Function, with the similar Outcome however.
Equally, the Enclave is powerful, the Brotherhood of Steel, at its prime feared the Enclave for good Reason. They had better training, access to much better Technology and Weaponry, as well as Armor. Yet you can easily go toe to toe with a few Squads of them on your own. New Vegas showed just what a small Squad of 4 People and one Vertibird is capable of by comparison against Enemies which are technological inferior, and the Brotherhood is that as well. They are ahead of mostly everyone else, but the Enclave still has the bigger Toys.

That is essentially the big glaring Lore Problems right there. However the biggest Problem with the Game was essentially the forced Story. You get born, grow up and eventually have to leave the Vault and look for your Dad. That is fine of course, but once you find him, why does everyone react to you as if you will help him, or after he dies, carry on his Plans? Whenever did i make that Decision? Why cant i join the Enclave, or any other Faction but am forced to join the Brotherhood? Why does the Game force you to play a good guy? Especially after giving you the Choice to be evil to begin with, which also boils down to a Black and White Morality. Fallout 2 had Morality as well, but it affected the Game in much different Ways.

For example, in Fallout 2 there is a Settlement named Modoc that you run across fairly early on, in the midst of a famine. Now near that Town is a Farm which has plenty of Food, totally unaffected by the dry Weather and lack of Rain. So you are sent to investigate. You have now several Choices.

1: You can just leave and leave the Town to its fate.
2: Go to the Farm and find out who is there.

Thats two clear-cut choices. Lets assume you picked Option 2, you get more Choices.

1: Leave them to their Fate, which essentially boils down to the Inhabitants of Modoc taking over the Farm forcibly and killing everyone there.
2: Make a Deal with the Farmers and the People of Modoc so both Sides can flourish.
3: Kill everyone at the Farm yourself and tell the People in Modoc about it.
4: Kill everyone in Modoc to save the Farm.
5: Do not tell the People of Modoc about what you found at the Farm, essentially lie. Which means Modoc will become a Ghost Town.

There is one good Choice in there, with all other Options being evil, for one side or another.
But alright, lets get one more Example in here. Broken Hills, which you find relatively in the middle of the Game. The Town's main export is Uranium from its Mine. Once you get there and get involved, you have several Options.

1: Just leave again.
2: Help put the Mutant Haters behind Bars.
3: Help the Mutant Haters kill some big Mutants.

Again the whole Questline isnt solved with that however. Lets assume you help the Mutant Haters. It means the town will die because only Mutants are immune to the Radiation in the Mine. Help the Mutants instead? Well, you better fix the Air Cleaner inside the Mine so the Mutants can go back to work. But again it doesnt end there, because even if you do all the good Choices, the Town will eventually vanish because the Uranium will run out, meaning its sole big Export is gone, and with it the Reason of the Town to be there.


So, going over that, Fallout 3 ranks to me like Fallout Tactics does. Its a good Fallout Game, but its not a Sequel to the earlier Installments and as such doesnt really deserve the Number. And yes i got longwinded, anyone being interested in more background Lore, please consult the Fallout Wiki ;P

 

[Fijiman]

What I would LOVE to see for Fallout 4 is have Bethesda build the world, make the atmospherics and the visuals and build the physical aspects of the quests, and for Obsidian to do all of the writing (but for the love of God never let Obsidian near a one or zero).

Let's hope they do good on this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGg6m7CEluE
And Obsidion didn't do that bad of a job on New Vegas, but they didn't do that great of a job either.

I thought the core game was better then F3, but the F3 DLC was far better then the FV DLC. SO MANY ACRONYMS!

I've not even finished Dead Money so I can say much for the New Vegas DLC, but Fallout 3's DLC was pretty good. As for the core games, there are things I do and don't like between Fallout 3 and New Vegas, but most of those things are game mechanics related instead of story. Come to think of it, I usually knock the story for exploring every other nook and cranny I can find until I have all the coolest stuff in the game. For example, I have the All American in New Vegas which, in my opinion, is the most kicka$$ rifle ever and I've barely done anything with the story.

 

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OH! and one more thing.

The BoS shouldn't be scoffed for breaking tradition just because they broke with some tenets of their beliefs for the sake of story (even though they did make them a tad too white knight-ish). They have the Outcasts for any BoS fanatics, as well as the actual BoS Chapters on the West Coast and Nevada. The Midwest only being vague Canon? *shrugs* The lack of actual T-51b suits was a piss-off too, did all theirs break or something on the trek over? And you'd think the HQ of the US Armed Forces would have something not state-of-the-Arkas T-45d's. I write that down to game armour/treasure balancing though as well as general writing idiocy, or even a metaphor of the Brotherhood's decline?

I find it plausible that in the 200+ years since the war happened, most of the easier places have already been ransacked.

There is also the possibility that there are factions of US military that just got stuck in the middle of nowhere and got vaporized when the bombs hit. There just isnt enough material in the Fallout games to explain what happened to all the military hardware. Heck i was pleased to see bits of info about some groups that saw the bombs hit, the refugee logs from the Police Station in Fallout 3 and the logs from the teachers in little lamplight shed some minor light into what people might have done immediately after the bombs hit, but really do not have a clear idea of what exactly triggered the mass nuclear attack or what happened to the main forces of both factions during the war.

 

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The big Problem with 3 versus New Vegas and by relation also 1 and 2 is pretty much just the lore. As well as quite a few Gameplay Decisions and Storylines.

The FEV (Forced Evolutionary Virus) was started as the PVP (Pan-Immunity Virion Project) which was initially designed to literally grant immunity against any kind of biological or chemical Weapon. You can already see that this didnt turn out well. Instead of having the desired Effect it instead created literal Super Soldiers, albeit it also made them much more aggressive. The Project was given to West Tek who developed it internally for a few Years, in part because of increased Tension with China, as well as to prevent another Outbreak of the "Plague" which swept the Nation previously, killing Millions. Due to the shift of the Research is was moved to the Mariposa Military Base for further Research and Testing. When the War broke out, West Tek was one of the Targets directly hit by one of the Nuclear Missiles fired by either side, who did it nobody really knows. The FEV got into the Atmosphere and basicly mixed with the radiation, making the Survivors largely immune to direct Contact with it.

Which was the sole Reason the Master later wanted completely clean Humans to turn into his Super Mutants, which he thought were the next logical Step. Remove anything making Humanity different and start from scratch. The Idea was rather noble on Paper, but FEV also made the Super Mutants sterile, meaning that if everyone was turned, we'd eventually die out.

Research of FEV was NEVER passed to a Vault, which while being designed as Scientific and Sociological Studies by the Enclave, the Enclave would never introduce a experimental Virus or mutagenic Substance to any one of them because it would essentially ruin everything, especially because it'd have disastrous Results. The White Noise System tested in another Vault is more likely to happen, as it can be kept local and if failure is apparent, terminated, or at least wont be a viable Threat in the future. Therefore, Super Mutants in the Capital Wasteland are illogical, they COULD have come from the West, in fact, the Storyline would suggest that easily, in that the Super Mutants fled east after the Master died, but they couldnt create more, as by that Point, Mariposa was in ruins and they couldnt simply create more FEV out of thin air.

The Enclave making a return is also another big Problem, especially since they follow the same MO that they did in Fallout 2, which means Idea Rehashing. The original Plan was to mutate the FEV into another, entirely deadly strain and release it, killing every other lifeform except those on the Oilrig or otherwise protected from its Effects, i.e. Vaults. Fallout 3 uses the same Idea but in a less overall Function, with the similar Outcome however.
Equally, the Enclave is powerful, the Brotherhood of Steel, at its prime feared the Enclave for good Reason. They had better training, access to much better Technology and Weaponry, as well as Armor. Yet you can easily go toe to toe with a few Squads of them on your own. New Vegas showed just what a small Squad of 4 People and one Vertibird is capable of by comparison against Enemies which are technological inferior, and the Brotherhood is that as well. They are ahead of mostly everyone else, but the Enclave still has the bigger Toys.

That is essentially the big glaring Lore Problems right there. However the biggest Problem with the Game was essentially the forced Story. You get born, grow up and eventually have to leave the Vault and look for your Dad. That is fine of course, but once you find him, why does everyone react to you as if you will help him, or after he dies, carry on his Plans? Whenever did i make that Decision? Why cant i join the Enclave, or any other Faction but am forced to join the Brotherhood? Why does the Game force you to play a good guy? Especially after giving you the Choice to be evil to begin with, which also boils down to a Black and White Morality. Fallout 2 had Morality as well, but it affected the Game in much different Ways.

For example, in Fallout 2 there is a Settlement named Modoc that you run across fairly early on, in the midst of a famine. Now near that Town is a Farm which has plenty of Food, totally unaffected by the dry Weather and lack of Rain. So you are sent to investigate. You have now several Choices.

1: You can just leave and leave the Town to its fate.
2: Go to the Farm and find out who is there.

Thats two clear-cut choices. Lets assume you picked Option 2, you get more Choices.

1: Leave them to their Fate, which essentially boils down to the Inhabitants of Modoc taking over the Farm forcibly and killing everyone there.
2: Make a Deal with the Farmers and the People of Modoc so both Sides can flourish.
3: Kill everyone at the Farm yourself and tell the People in Modoc about it.
4: Kill everyone in Modoc to save the Farm.
5: Do not tell the People of Modoc about what you found at the Farm, essentially lie. Which means Modoc will become a Ghost Town.

There is one good Choice in there, with all other Options being evil, for one side or another.
But alright, lets get one more Example in here. Broken Hills, which you find relatively in the middle of the Game. The Town's main export is Uranium from its Mine. Once you get there and get involved, you have several Options.

1: Just leave again.
2: Help put the Mutant Haters behind Bars.
3: Help the Mutant Haters kill some big Mutants.

Again the whole Questline isnt solved with that however. Lets assume you help the Mutant Haters. It means the town will die because only Mutants are immune to the Radiation in the Mine. Help the Mutants instead? Well, you better fix the Air Cleaner inside the Mine so the Mutants can go back to work. But again it doesnt end there, because even if you do all the good Choices, the Town will eventually vanish because the Uranium will run out, meaning its sole big Export is gone, and with it the Reason of the Town to be there.


So, going over that, Fallout 3 ranks to me like Fallout Tactics does. Its a good Fallout Game, but its not a Sequel to the earlier Installments and as such doesnt really deserve the Number. And yes i got longwinded, anyone being interested in more background Lore, please consult the Fallout Wiki ;P

Why did you compare the sidequests in Fallout 2 to the Main quest in Fallout 3 and blame the latter for lack of choice?

The main quest in Fallout 2 also leaves you little options aside from save your town or dont and the quest isnt completed.

If you wanted to do a fair comparison, you would have compared those quest with helping the kids in little lamplight, or help that abandoned kid in the ant town, or doing harolds quest, or the Big Town quests.