Hello Escapists! And Possibly An Unpopular Opinion

[OldNewNewOld]

Starcraft stopped being a strategy game long time ago. Even Starcraft 1 and Warcraft TFT suffer from the same problem. Balance. Both games are to balanced to have any "strategy". There are few viable ways to play it and that's it. Everything else, every other "strategy" is objectively inferior. They have a set metagame and everything that stands out is inferior.

SC2 is now a "who has faster finger" game.

Having a set metagame is the worst that can happen to any competitive game. It eliminates a huge part of it. That's why games like Dota get regular updates with buffs/nerfs even on balanced stuff to spice things up.

Also, welcome and have a nice stay.

 

[Brandon237]

So: SC2 is an infuriating game that has a learning curve akin to running into a brick wall for those who play it as their first competitive strategy game with cheap and micro-heavier tactics and all-ins being incredibly effective at turning your attempts to play a macro game into a laughable GG, and yet I still love it, FML >.<

Don't forget that Bronze League is practically monopolized by cheezers, meaning that if you're new to the game...well, suffice to say you're going to be ready to throw your laptop out the window when you're on multiplayer.

True dat, I held top position bronze for a while before promotion (sadly not long, the game decided it was time for me to SUFFER again) and it was mostly because I became good at holding mediocre cheese I was zerg so cannons only became problems at expand or against idiots who would lose their cannons to roaches
Bunker rushes were fail-tastic because I actually realised how much health a hatchery has and did not panic.
Zerg... welllllll... 10 pool beats both 6 pool and expand before pool... so... I may have done some rushing as Z myself (I hate ZvZ, m'kay? )

But my friend who is top 8 bronze was complaining madly about voids and all other weird cheeses the whole time, quite bad really

 

[shrekfan246]

Snip

Don't worry, the general opinion around here is that Blizzard as a whole is the worst thing to ever grace gaming, except for EA or Activision or Ubisoft or Jonathan Blow or that Fish guy who made Fez. I can't really give you any scintillating discussion on the subject of RTS games, though, the only one I really play isn't even a 'true' RTS, it's a 4X game.

But welcome! If you want to keep your sanity, then avoid R&P.

 

[Guffe]

So, I recently signed up here and thought I would say 'hey' to people. I guess this ended up becoming a new topic because it seemed a good way to start, rather than jump in on topic with my first post.

Greetings from me too and welcome!
Your inbox will be spammed to death by quotes

I have never played SC2 so I am no use on that point

If you have questions ask someone.
If you wonder how a certain thing works like this spoiler box

Spoiler: name of the spoiler box!!! PS. click to open

Did you click to open it?

or any other function that seems strange then click the "quote" button and look at how someone has done a certain thing.
We like to help out and most are friendly people so asking for help is no problem.

 

[MadMatt910]

Wow, many replies. I did expect this thread to disappear into obscurity within about 5 minutes, so yeah I am pleasantly surprised.

snippety snip snip

Hopefully I did that right...

I'm a big Supreme Commander fan - love both FA and 2 (apparently that's heresy to most people ), I love COH, SOASE, W:EE and the Total War Games. Starcraft just always seemed so lacking in genuine strategy to me by comparison - each of those examples being far better at its own area where SC2 just seemed to be a blend of micro and macro that never truley achieved greatness in either.

Thanks for the kind welcomes, always appreciated.

Oh and ill be staying away from basments, red buttons or anythign else that would disturb an otherwise peaceful stay

 

[Nouw]

I think I finally understand why I suck at Starcraft 2. Back to Company of Heroes for me!

WELCOME, MADMATT!

WELCOOOOOOME, TO THE MACHIIIIIIINE!

So this is the warm feeling you get when you get when you understand a reference .

 

[sextus the crazy]

I think I finally understand why I suck at Starcraft 2. Back to Company of Heroes for me!

WELCOME, MADMATT!

WELCOOOOOOME, TO THE MACHIIIIIIINE!

So this is the warm feeling you get when you get when you understand a reference .

Pink Floyd and Company of Heroes. Is this the feeling they call "love"?

 

[Nouw]

Pink Floyd and Company of Heroes. Is this the feeling they call "love"?

Spoiler: Looks like we finally found love guys!

You have a kickass name by the way.

 

[Patrick Buck]

WELCOME. WELCOME AND ENJOY YOUR STAY.

Oh, and I haven't played any RTS for ages either, so I'm basically just commenting to say welcome.

 

[FootloosePhoenix]

Don't push the red button.

This is the most important bit of advice that can be given, by far. If you ever push the red button, every user's avatar will be replaced by Justin Bieber for 24 hours.

You have been warned.

That's ridiculous, you must be kidd--oh.

Well see y'all in about 24 hours.

 

[BrotherRool]

I can't help but think it has such little strategy when you have to stick so rigidly to build orders and counters are so strong.

The sad thing is, this is pretty much true even in chess. Maybe at the very top level of chess you can leave build orders behind, but there's a lot of memorisation and slogging to get there.

I'm not sure if there's a strategy game that could survive a competitive metagame without ending up at build orders. If choices are meaningful but finite then that means some are going to be better than others and the good ones will eventually be adopted by everyone else you will die.

Look at the beginning of Starcraft 2, The Little One won competitive matches against the top players with builds he'd never even tried before that match but as the metagame advances people understand what works and what doesn't and the options are lowered.

There's still chance to seek joy in the variation though and if everyone else is memorising build orders then they'll have forgotten/never learnt how to deal with some of the more unconventional strategies. And there's a chance to develop your own if you have the right sort of twist of mind. TLO for example, now always has a plan and build order, but it's always one he's invented himself.

Check out this guy. Masters level player, has APM that barely breaks 60 at the best of times and is normally 30 compared to his opponents 150+ but he still wins because he's crazy enough to build a Planetary Fortress at his natural and use Mass Ravens.

If you want something quicker, look how he deals with a canon rush

Spoiler

 

[MadMatt910]

shhnip

Yeah I do see how build orders are going to be important, it's definitely a good point. Just seems SC2 is more reliant on very rigid build orders than most. It could be because it feels so rush heavy and turtling is a joke, so perhaps that has something to do with it.

I think perhaps some more RTT type ideas can help to stop build orders being so concrete. Flanking, moral, unit ammo etc can put more focus on tactics rather than either having to memorize hotkeys and accurate clicking.

I guess also in games like FA there is a more balanced macro triangle of rush, turtle, boomer and decent balance between units. There are multiple options to approaching every situation - mainly because the counters are a little softer.

 

[Rip Van Rabbit]

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OT: I completely suck at RTS, played Starcraft 1 and its expansion when I was younger. Perhaps due to gaming preferences becoming more refined over the years, starcraft 2 just felt slightly shallow. Or more likely it's the nostalgia talking

 

[DugMachine]

Welcome. Don't press the buttons and try to get along. We're good people mostly ! Hope to see you around.

OT: Can't talk about this topic because I suck arse at SC and most strategy games.

 

[Kpt._Rob]

Welcome to The Escapist, where having an unpopular opinion is kind of like breathing, and you're more likely to get people trying to counteract the claim that you have an unpopular opinion, than you are to suffer the angry hoards of people actually offended by your opinion.

 

[sextus the crazy]

Pink Floyd and Company of Heroes. Is this the feeling they call "love"?

Spoiler: Looks like we finally found love guys!

You have a kickass name by the way.

Sextus puer molestissimus est.

yeah, that's me with the blond hair there.

"Where'd you get those Latin skills?"
"Ecce Romani, word!"

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

welcome newbie. prewarning: leave the oldscapists alone, their hearing isn't great and they'll shake their canes at you.

also stay away from the other newbies. as i haven't vetted them yet, they could still be annoying.

just, don't talk to anyone. we're terrible people. and click any buttons you find, they're usually for streamlining site updates. and if we make you too crazy, we have a convenient <link=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Asylum-open-mic>asylum set up just in case.

 

[The_Waspman]

And what's a starcraft?

I think it's kind of like a warcraft, except in space.

To quote one of the characters from StarCraft:

This is NOT just WarCraft in Space! Its far more complicated. I know its not 3D!

Back OT. I loved StarCraft back in the day, when I was an actual PC gamer, but I've been hearing a lot of negative stuff about StarCraft 2. Can't say that I'll ever play it, because my PC doesn't have a graphics card that can handle it. I briefly considered getting such a graphics card, so I could play SC2 and the original Mass Effect, but thats coming to PS3 soon anyway.

Ahem.

So yeah, I've seen one of my friends playing SC2, and I liked the way it looked (almost exactly like the original StarCraft) and I was well excited for it but yeah, I'm too used to console gaming now.

Then again, I never played RTS against other people. Playing video games against other people via this internet thing people keep gabbing about just sounds crazy to me.

 

[Lopende Paddo]

[quote="MadMatt910" post="18.390795.15712327"
Now, lets be clear, I don't think SC2 is actually a bad game. The 3 factions are well balanced and it clearly takes a massive amount of skill to perfect actions per minute and clicking accuracy. It just feels like SC2 is not a great strategy game. Of course it could be that I just don't gel with it, I was just curious of how other strategy gamers see it.
[/quote]

Hi and welcome to the escapist!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion when it comes to games, If you like the old ET game or dislike [fill in blank] (its easier to think of the worst game ever than the best...) who am i to argue, but for the sake of converting you here's something that might change your mind aboutt starcraft. only takes 20 min of an epic match

Enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD5A7D5dgsA&list=FLp9yXnfolEGXIGAR_JwbRSQ&index=74&feature=plpp_video

 

[BrotherRool]

shhnip

Yeah I do see how build orders are going to be important, it's definitely a good point. Just seems SC2 is more reliant on very rigid build orders than most. It could be because it feels so rush heavy and turtling is a joke, so perhaps that has something to do with it.

I think perhaps some more RTT type ideas can help to stop build orders being so concrete. Flanking, moral, unit ammo etc can put more focus on tactics rather than either having to memorize hotkeys and accurate clicking.

I guess also in games like FA there is a more balanced macro triangle of rush, turtle, boomer and decent balance between units. There are multiple options to approaching every situation - mainly because the counters are a little softer.

I'm being a little unfair here, but if you get to grandmaster (=D) the counters become pretty soft again and I feel like the rigidty of the build orders mainly comes from having such a competitive pro lever that even the people right at the beginning have access to plans for how to play the game right at the top level, which reduces the area of skill level where you can do your own thing.

The problem with how I think of SC2 is I always think of it in terms of e-sports and less in terms of non-pros being able to have fun playing the game =D