Help For a Budding DM: How can I tame my players?

[Folio]

AnAngryMoose, I don't recommend the Boulder or the Dragon Karma. That is just you punishing them in game for out of game behavior. It is abuse of GM power and will lead to an antagonistic relationship between you and the players. That is never a good thing. The game will get worse if you do this. As a GM you have to be fair.

These punishing tactics, I have to admit, are a little harsh. But the DM Guide suggested a house rule like a negative effect on a Critical Fail and a positive effect on a Critical Hit. I find these suggested rules ridiculous because a Crit is a punishment/reward in itself, and it's pure luck!

A DM decides how she bends the rules herself. If the players are tough and want a challenge, the DM can provide it. If they want to stroll in a park, the DM can provide that, too.

Keeping yourself inside the boundaries of rules isn't what the DM has to do. They have an equal amount of freedom of doing what the rules don't specify as much as a player has.

The DM doesn't need to be 'fair'. The DM needs to entertain. The DM decides what, period.

Also: punishing works on short terms, rewarding on long terms. I tried punishing and they don't listen. I tried rewarding and they didn't care. So I ended it. An entertainer is nothing without an audience. An entertainer with the wrong audience just needs to get off the stage and find a new one.

 

[trooper6]

The DM doesn't need to be 'fair'. The DM needs to entertain. The DM decides what, period.

There are many players for whom, if they feel the GM isn't being fair--especially if the GM using OOC knowledge or feelings to punish or reward people IC--they will not only feel not entertained, but they will also feel as if the GM is a cheater.

Further, there are GMs, you may not be one, but I am, who feels as if being fair is part of their GM's Code of Honor.

 

[LordLundar]

I've been partial to the "potted plant of doom" myself. Same concept as the rocks fall, but far more entertaining. Instead of the basic "rocks fall, you die" you stop talking for a minute and see if that gets their attention. If not, break out a 6 sided die and roll it twice. The first number is the stat that is affected, the second is the amount of points permanently lost in that stat. They learn quickly and will focus damn fast when that die comes out.

Outside of that, the role of a GM is to tell the story that the players have no control over. That said, don't restrict the players or they'll get bored fast. If they screw up, they pay the price. You'd be surprised how entertaining stupid deaths can be.

 

[Folio]

The DM doesn't need to be 'fair'. The DM needs to entertain. The DM decides what, period.

There are many players for whom, if they feel the GM isn't being fair--especially if the GM using OOC knowledge or feelings to punish or reward people IC--they will not only feel not entertained, but they will also feel as if the GM is a cheater.

Further, there are GMs, you may not be one, but I am, who feels as if being fair is part of their GM's Code of Honor.

I am one, or else I didn't invent punishment tactics. And being fair is what I want to do, too. But sometimes you can throw things at players WAY beyond their level and still they win. Was it fair? No. Did they enjoy it? I guess so, they defeated a major challenge!

I see you have a clear boundary between In Character and Out Of Character. But for this GM that's the point. No player wants to be in character. No player wants to give full attention to the adventure. The GM can use some tricks to make them think for their characters and make heroic decisions. The fact that the GM will be afraid of being blamed she's unfair is already a factor of players still thinking like a game.

Even in videogames gamers blame the game itself when they lose, just so they feel a little better with their loss. It's easy to shout a tantrum at something that can't argue back just because you didn't make the right choises.

If you've looked at Check For Traps, here on the Escapist, (It has to be in articles or columns somewhere.) you will find out why the GM is God and Satan at the same time. A villain doesn't fight fair, it's a villain! It's the trick for the players to do so and beat the villain fairly.

And yes, giving players something they wouldn't possibly beat isn't that much fun. Don't worry.

 

[trooper6]

The DM doesn't need to be 'fair'. The DM needs to entertain. The DM decides what, period.

There are many players for whom, if they feel the GM isn't being fair--especially if the GM using OOC knowledge or feelings to punish or reward people IC--they will not only feel not entertained, but they will also feel as if the GM is a cheater.

Further, there are GMs, you may not be one, but I am, who feels as if being fair is part of their GM's Code of Honor.

I am one, or else I didn't invent punishment tactics. And being fair is what I want to do, too. But sometimes you can throw things at players WAY beyond their level and still they win. Was it fair? No. Did they enjoy it? I guess so, they defeated a major challenge!

I see you have a clear boundary between In Character and Out Of Character. But for this GM that's the point. No player wants to be in character. No player wants to give full attention to the adventure. The GM can use some tricks to make them think for their characters and make heroic decisions. The fact that the GM will be afraid of being blamed she's unfair is already a factor of players still thinking like a game.

Even in videogames gamers blame the game itself when they lose, just so they feel a little better with their loss. It's easy to shout a tantrum at something that can't argue back just because you didn't make the right choises.

If you've looked at Check For Traps, here on the Escapist, (It has to be in articles or columns somewhere.) you will find out why the GM is God and Satan at the same time. A villain doesn't fight fair, it's a villain! It's the trick for the players to do so and beat the villain fairly.

And yes, giving players something they wouldn't possibly beat isn't that much fun. Don't worry.

Villains don't fight fair. But a GM isn't a villain (at least, I'm not).

For me, as a GM, I am also neither God nor Satan. Rather I am an impartial referee. Now the villains in the game may fight unfairly. And there will be challenges that will be far too easy and far too hard for the PCs...mainly because I'm a simulationist (more or less) GM and I try to model a full world...and in the world there are things that are a breeze and things that are impossible. It is up to the players to decide what they are going to do about it...and that might include running away.

However, if they come across a dragon in my game (or whatever) they know the dragon is there because it is organic to the world. They will always be certain that at no time will I throw a boulder or a dragon at them because I, trooper6, am irritated at Player X for talking OOC. I don't spawn enemies out of thin air out of spite. If I don't want them to act on OOC knowledge, if I want them be serious in character, then I have to do the same...and that means not abusing my GM power by throwing unrealistic and overpowering monsters at them because I don't like something about them out of character. I think of that as being unprofessional and inappropriate.

My players want to be in character and my players want to give full attention to the adventure...because I reward in character behavior and paying attention and I model it myself. It I have a player who wants a different kind RP experience, then I invite them to leave. There is nothing wrong with beer & pretzles gaming, or hack'n'slash gaming...but that isn't what I do. So rather than bullying players who don't fit, I rather they leave and find a group that fits their style so I can continue on with a group I don't have to pull teeth to get them to have fun.

 

[trooper6]

Outside of that, the role of a GM is to tell the story that the players have no control over. That said, don't restrict the players or they'll get bored fast. If they screw up, they pay the price. You'd be surprised how entertaining stupid deaths can be.

Not all GM's subscribe to philosophy. I don't think my role as a GM is to tell a story the players have no control over--which sounds really rail-roady to me. And my players would leave if they got that feeling from me. I think of my role as a GM as to the creation of a sandbox world with enough challenges and hooks that the players will have ample opportunities to create their own stories that are as interesting as possible.

My point is, just as there are many different play styles, there are also many different GMing styles.

 

[DrOswald]

A few tips:

Begin the gaming session with lots of pizza (or some other awesome equivalent) and 1 hour of general conversation. It doesn't need to be exactly one hour or anything, but it should be enough that some of the conversation gets out of the way earlier.

Find the natural leader. There is at least one in every group of PCs. He tends to plan more, think about what his character would do more, etc. He is your best friend. Given a little incentive, he will help keep people in line. My advice is to pull him aside some time and talk for a few minutes about how he can help you keep everyone on task.

Discover why your players play the game. Are they power gamers? do they enjoy the role play? It sounds like they are new to this, and so are you. It takes some time to learn how to play these games. Start looking for clues about what they enjoy most and work things in that improve that aspect. For example, you say your characters like to war game the fights. This is not a bad thing. It just means that your fights are run a little different. For example, make a rule that characters can talk in battle for free out of turn as long as it is ten words or less. This means that they can meta game the fight, but then they communicate it to each other mid fight in game. For an example of how this works, a few days ago I was in a game where I played a powerful mage supporting a ogre brawler and a stabby rogue. I had a powerful AOE I wanted to use but without hurting my friends, so I had my character yell out of turn "Out of the Way! Incoming!" So my friends could get out of the way before my turn. Don't forget that your PC's have fought a lot together, a little bit of war gaming is justified because they know how everyone will act in combat and each character is planning for the battle based on that knowledge.

Don't get mad if things don't go as you plan. The unplanned moments are often the best. I had an encounter planned so they would fight a bunch of foot soldiers, and then 2 of them would fight the mage and the other 2 would fight the general. With a series of incredible rolls, the general was killed 1 turn. This was a disaster as far as my plans went, but it provided a good opportunity. I quickly threw out a description of the short but violent duel. It was something like "You bring down your sword in an arc of incredible force, cutting strait though his magical axe, his armor, his entire body, and burying the blade 2 inches into the steel deck plates below. The 2 halves of his body fall to the ground dead." This moment is still talked about in our group almost 2 years later.

Make combat interesting by adding in short descriptions of what is happening (like above.) "You catch the knight's head with your war hammer knocking it clean off his shoulders. It lands 10 feet from the body." is a lot better than "you crit for 15 and the knight dies." Give your players a chance to add in their own little descriptions here and there.

Use peer pressure to your advantage. Encourage players to keep other players in line. But don't be crazy about it. A ten minute interruption ever hour and a half isn't so bad.

If there are problems like a lack of focus, talk to the players individually. It is a different dynamic talking to one player and talking to a group, and a face to face is typically a lot better format to discuss problems than at the table.

Above all, go with the flow of the campaign. Reward players for inventive thinking, let them do what they want. Remember the rule of cool (if something is cool, find a way to make it work)

Good examples of how to DM in fun format:

The gamers (just watch it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiTEHqAeanw

Darths and Droids (Star Wars, if it had been a DnD game): http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html

P.S. For distinguishing in game from out of game chatter, try having them hold up a card when they are talking in game. A bit cheesy, but it works.

 

[trooper6]

If you want to help yourself become a better Game Master, OP, you may want to buy Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering.

http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG30-3009

It will really help you understand the different sorts of players and how best to GM for them.

 

[LordLundar]

Outside of that, the role of a GM is to tell the story that the players have no control over. That said, don't restrict the players or they'll get bored fast. If they screw up, they pay the price. You'd be surprised how entertaining stupid deaths can be.

Not all GM's subscribe to philosophy. I don't think my role as a GM is to tell a story the players have no control over--which sounds really rail-roady to me. And my players would leave if they got that feeling from me. I think of my role as a GM as to the creation of a sandbox world with enough challenges and hooks that the players will have ample opportunities to create their own stories that are as interesting as possible.

My point is, just as there are many different play styles, there are also many different GMing styles.

Sorry, bad choice of wording on my part. I don't mean the GM telling players what to do or show to play their characters. I mean aspects of the story that the characters have no control over. An example would be the party is traveling through an area of two warring kingdoms intent on absolutely destroying one another. Now at some point one of those kingdoms is going to win barring an outside force, but unless the players choose to be involved, then it's up to the GM to dictate the results of it. Depending on the role the party plays if they do get involved, it might not be big enough to change the outcome anyways.

Another (smaller) example is if an enemy archer shoots an arrow at a party member. Unless the characters are deities able to control the arrow itself, then it's up to the GM to determine if the aim was true. The player can control to dodge or block it, but that's a reaction independant of whether the arrow was fired right.

 

[trooper6]

Sorry, bad choice of wording on my part. I don't mean the GM telling players what to do or show to play their characters. I mean aspects of the story that the characters have no control over. An example would be the party is traveling through an area of two warring kingdoms intent on absolutely destroying one another. Now at some point one of those kingdoms is going to win barring an outside force, but unless the players choose to be involved, then it's up to the GM to dictate the results of it. Depending on the role the party plays if they do get involved, it might not be big enough to change the outcome anyways.

Another (smaller) example is if an enemy archer shoots an arrow at a party member. Unless the characters are deities able to control the arrow itself, then it's up to the GM to determine if the aim was true. The player can control to dodge or block it, but that's a reaction independant of whether the arrow was fired right.

Ah! Then we see the matter the same way. But I know a lot of GMs who have fairly pre-determined plots that they force their players through. Some folks like that style. Not my cup of tea. But it is valid.

 

[KoalaKid]

I've recently started a DnD campaign with some friends, all of whom have been interested in it for quite some time. My main problem with them is that they can't focus on the game at all:

-They 'wargame' it, even after me saying that immersion.

-They burst into full-blown conversation when there's the slightest lull in the combat, making it difficult to narrate combat and non-combat encounters. One in particular interrupts narration with completely stupid questions, knowing very well how stupid they are.

-They get distracted easily mid-game. One tends to listen to his iPod, another messes about on his phone and generally acts like a child, refusing to listen when I ask him to pay attention.

Basically, as the title says, I need a way to tame my players and keep them focused on the game. Also, any tips for distinguishing between in-character and out-of-character conversation?

And for the discussion value, do you have any horror stories to share about unruly players in tapletop RPGs, be it as a DM or player?

I had the same problem, but worse. The buttbags I was playing with did all the things you listed above plus they were really perverted, and every chance they got they tried to have their characters have sex with the npcs. Even though I would really like to play I eventually quit because of it.

 

[targren]

Kill them. Kill them all.

Rat bastard players, spawning T-Rexes all over the plains, one-shotting load-bearing bosses and crumbling my beautiful plotlines!

Helo. My name is Demogorgon. I killed your father. Prepare to die.

Bwahahahahah!


(Hm. I think my group might be stressing me out a little lately...)

 

[dorkette1990]

I use roleplaying elements to... somewhat railroad players. For example, I had a character who often was out of the game cooking (for some weird reason). So she got an intelligent item that she could have discussions with it (she was a monk, the item were bracers). I've also given characters a love interest - it allows them to waste all the immature energy while still playing.

 

[Delsana]

Shackles, torture, castration, electrical therapy.

Also, I'm serious... perform very elaborate and significant and sometimes mentally traumatizing torture on those that get out of hand, not to be "god-moding" but design and implement it properly to show that not being careful or at least capable is as deadly as being weak.

Also, anyone using D&D for sci-fi has some issues... it is Dungeon and Dragons.. it is not Open-world RP... as much as I love roleplaying... when it comes to a game with designed books after it that tell you what you can and can not do, imagination be damned... time to play the game and not make up rules... filling in the blanks within a designated zone is a lot more imaginative and creative than having free reign without limits.

 

[L4Y Duke]

Actually, try this campaign I put up a while ago. I'm not sure if it actually is possible, given my 0h 00m and 0s of total tabletop non-card based gameplay, but here it is anyway:

Spoiler: Firetrap

The Firetrap

Your party learns about a dangerous plant-monster that dwells in a nearby cave. They go investigate.

The cave is long and dark. No matter where they search, they can find only:

Corpses of previous adventurers
High-level Fire-enchanted weapons
Smoke-damaged (Path 1) or Fire-damaged (Path 2) armour (see below)

At the end of the cave, they find a Treant (Tree monster)

Here's the evil part, and it can go in one of two directions:
1. If they use a fire-based attack on it, they set the Treant alight, but the cave starts to fill with smoke. They now have 5 turns to escape before they choke to death. Problem is, it takes 7 to get to the entrance.
2. The Treant has a magical item that reflects all fire damage. The moment an attack connects, the attacker gets set on fire, taking 20% of their max. health each turn until they die or are put out.

If they complain that their untimely demises came completely out of the blue, point out that the last people who fought the Treant all used Fire-enchanted weapons, and are also now DEAD.

 

[Apollo45]

Our DM always had random events happen if players were being stupid. If one of them tried something obviously stupid, or did something they knew would make people mad, the DM would say that, for example, a rock fell on their head. Or out of nowhere a naked guy with a knife came up and tried to stab them. Something along those lines. They'd have to roll to defend against it, and take whatever damage was given to them. We had a couple of the more obnoxious players get themselves killed by doing stupid things too often. It got players to stop doing stupid things pretty quick.

Then again, we also had a tendency to conspire against each other throughout the entire game... There were multiple occasions where we'd all turn on each other mid-game and most of the party would die. I think my character was the only one that didn't ever actually die... He was damned good at just about everything.

Random story time (yay!): I solo'd an entire dungeon at one time because the rest of the group was arguing about something that I can't remember at all now. Decided to go out by myself, ran in to a trap set by the boss vampire. I resisted the attempt to put me to sleep, then as he was materializing in front of me from his smoke form I took out a stake and placed it right where his heart was going to be. He formed, I incapacitated him, then proceeded to tie him up and torture him in to guiding me through the rest of the castle. Ended up making Mr. Vamps disarm all his traps and kill his minions for me, got all the loot, and at the end I left him with a steak in his heart and holy wafers in his mouth at the top of the tower, then returned to my group to show off my fancy new gear. They had finished arguing a while back and were waiting for my return. When I got back they decided to kill me and take my stuff. Somehow I managed to kill two, incapacitate three, and convince the last one to back off. From that point on whenever we ended up getting in to a fight with each other I would stay out of it, they would kill themselves off, and whenever any of them turned on me I managed to kill them. Made for some interesting games.

The moral is that I'm sure the DM gave me some leeway in it because I was the only one actually doing anything, and so I ended up with the good gear. Give the players that play the game incentive, and punish those that don't. Do it realistically and in-game, of course, but you're the DM, do what you want.

I had the same problem, but worse. The buttbags I was playing with did all the things you listed above plus they were really perverted, and every chance they got they tried to have their characters have sex with the npcs. Even though I would really like to play I eventually quit because of it.

See, what you should've done is, for every time they had sex, roll for their chances of getting an STD. When they got one, tell them and make them lose health steadily until they could get to a healer.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Ok, let's take a crack at this...Some of my solutions are a bit dickish...but kinda funny.

Anyway, before I get to the solutions, just start by asking them what you can do to make them more interested in the game.

Second, improvise. Try to roll with what they do, and allow for creative solutions. And if do something stupid, force them to live with it. And tell them it's their fault for bringing it on themselves.


---
-They burst into full-blown conversation when there's the slightest lull in the combat, making it difficult to narrate combat and non-combat encounters. One in particular interrupts narration with completely stupid questions, knowing very well how stupid they are.

Solution:
Tell them that all conversation is treated as in-game conversation unless they specifically say that they are speaking out-of-game. If they start yapping their mouths too much in combat, and don't SPECIFICALLY say it's out game talk...say "The enemy notices that you are distracted by conversation and gets an attack of opportunity on you!". Eventually they'll learn.

As for the stupid question guy, introduce a deity that hates stupid questions, and anytime anyone (even an NPC) asks a stupid question, they get hit by lightning.

-They get distracted easily mid-game. One tends to listen to his iPod, another messes about on his phone and generally acts like a child, refusing to listen when I ask him to pay attention.

Solution:
Firstly, tell them that it's disrespectful, and that it's impossible to enjoy DND if you're not trying to get into character (and listening to your ipod or playing with your phone really distracts from that, making them have less fun.). If that doesn't work, make them do reflex checks once in a while, where they must do a good roll, and do it within five seconds of you calling the skill check. Thus, they'll need to keep their minds on the game.

---
Also, don't be afraid to screw the rules and do your own thing. I did an improvised DND campaign with a buddy once, no books, no rules. Just him narrating and making up the stats, and stuff as we went. And it was freakin awesome.

Good luck!


EDIT:

Last thing: this is a tip from experience as a teacher. If they start going off on tangents, listening to an iPod, whatever. Wait. Don't talk. Just wait. Look at the offending people and just wait. If they want to play, they'll knock it off and you can game. If one of them won't knock it off, and the others want to play, they will put peer pressure on...which works better because some folks always feel the need to resist authority. If none of them knock it off, then you know they don't want to play, and that is the last game you GM for them.

This. THIS is a good idea.

All of this. Be creative and sometimes funny in your punishments. Remember, you're the DM and can do whatever the heck you want.

My dad used to play some of the greatest D&D games which involved some hilarious stuff. Just like drakan said here, once in a great while, they had a god of mischief come around and just start screwing with them.

 

[L4Y Duke]

Ooh, I've just come up with a good one.

Before the game starts, show the players a special 6-sided dice that won't be used for regular play. This will be your 'GM Wrath' dice. Any time they goof off or disobey your instructions, roll the dice. If it lands on a 1, the player pissing you off dies. Instantly.

Tell your players this before starting the campaign.

It'd really set the tone if you used the Duke Nukem Forever: Balls of Steel Edition dice for this, as they have a nuclear symbol instead of a one-dot side. It rolls a one, they get nuked.

For added pain, roll two dice. Snake eyes, and it's a Total Party Kill.