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Nulmas

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Yosharian said:
THEJORRRG said:
So I got into a discussion with my dad about how a game can be as engaging, worthwhile, and with a story as good as a book. He sees games as violent, blood filled, time wasters with no value, so I want to convince him otherwise! I got him to agree that if I could find a game I thought he would appreciate, he would play it all the way through.
So I need suggestions.
My first thought was Red Dead, but I haven't played it myself so I fear that the missions might just be shootout after shootout. Second thought was Silent Hill, but I don't want him to shit his pants.

So, I need a game that represents games at their absolute best, but something accessible enough for a total non-gamer to play and enjoy.
(Also, it'd have to be a PS2, PC, or Xbox 360 game)
Blade Runner on the PC. Portal and Heavy Rain were suggested by other people in this thread and I agree that those are good choices, however Portal requires an FPS skillset to enjoy - the awkwardness while he learns the controls might put him off. Civilization 4 would be an excellent choice only if he is of a strategic mindset.

Malrock said:
nulmas said:
Otherwise, I'd suggest Planescape: Torment. Great story, great morals, a good philosophy and, in a way, similar to a book (over 800.000 words, bigger than LOTR, if I'm not mistaken).
Wow good shout, I concur! Planescape: Torment was purely epic! If you want to demonstrate gamings ability to tell a great story and to use gameplay to engauge you like no other medium can, this is a great game to showcase.
You're recommending PS:T to a person who a) has never played a game and b) hates games? Wow. Do not follow this advice.
Gameplay wise, PS:T isn't that hard to grasp once you get the basics. Of course, convincing him to get the basics would be the tough part.

Oh, and congratulations, sir!

Blade Runner is indeed a fine game and one of a great example of good (and branching) storytelling in a game :) And way easier to get into than PS:T.

Now I'm wondering where my Blade Runner discs are... :( I miss playing it.


***EDIT: By the way, any idea if Blade Runner runs on Windows 7?
 

Aabglov

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I recommend Portal and Sid Meyer's Civilization 5. Civ5 can be hard to get used to if you've never played an RTS, but it's a pretty addicting game with plenty of things to do besides murder. If you play your cards right you can get through the whole game without declaring war on anyone...except maybe barbarians.
 

No_Remainders

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THEJORRRG said:
So I got into a discussion with my dad about how a game can be as engaging, worthwhile, and with a story as good as a book. He sees games as violent, blood filled, time wasters with no value, so I want to convince him otherwise! I got him to agree that if I could find a game I thought he would appreciate, he would play it all the way through.
So I need suggestions.
My first thought was Red Dead, but I haven't played it myself so I fear that the missions might just be shootout after shootout. Second thought was Silent Hill, but I don't want him to shit his pants.

So, I need a game that represents games at their absolute best, but something accessible enough for a total non-gamer to play and enjoy.
(Also, it'd have to be a PS2, PC, or Xbox 360 game)
Hmm...
I'd say Portal. The original one anyway, haven't played the second.

It has great puzzles and will prove games are not just violent and blood-filled time wasters with no value.

Red Dead Redemption is... It's ok. I got bored of it and had to force myself to finish it but that might just be because I really amn't a fan of Westerns.

Actually, thinking about it, Batman: Arkham Asylum, perhaps? It's fairly accessible with both combat and stealth moments. Might be a good idea?
 

Nulmas

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Yosharian said:
Yeah it is a great game, I didn't mean to shoot down your suggestion quite as harshly as I probably did, it's just I'm an RPG fanatic and I found PS:T incredibly difficult to get in to, gameplay-wise. And frankly the story is a bit confusing too. I wouldn't suggest it to a newbie.
No harm done, I understood where you were coming from :)
 

Malkavian

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I don't mean to bash anyone, but there's a lot of really bad suggestions on this thread.

Here's a list of games that you should NOT pick:

- Platformers, like Donkey Kong or Super Mario. They may be great, they may be clever, but in the end of the day, they will most likely not make a man who already has his mind against gaming, suddenly see the medium as intelectual and strong in storytelling. He may enjoy himself, but he can easily play it off as still being childish entertainment, not a serious medium.

- Shooters. Of any kind. Be it Doom, Call of Duty, or even Half Life. He will, for one thing, likely miss the storytelling aspects of them, and it will not help disprove his argument that games are just violent time wasters. Again, he may be entertained, but they will not convice him that gaming is a medium.

- RPG's. They are long, they are complicated, and giving him an RPG as his first modern gaming experience would be a terrible idea, because he will likely not make good on his promise, and play it through to the end. And eve if he does, he will not sink the time into it that it deserves.

- Japanese games. Most games in consideration here would be JRPG's. It would be a terrible choice, because the stories are really not for everybody, and certainly not for the inexperienced gamer, with no ties or experience to japanese culture. He will, most likely, not like/understand the story.

- Fighters/Racers/Sports games/whatever. Anything without a story, or if a story, the sorriest excuse for one. Again, he will look at them, maybe find them funny, but not consider gaming a relevant medium.

- Strategy games. While they are games that certainly display gaming as more intellectually engaging than "childish etertainment", the stories in them aren't all that good. The games are usually very long, too.


Damn. That's a lot of darn good games we just excluded.

Now here's what you want in the game you show him:

- Accesability. That's the most important part. He has to be able to actually play it, and play it without your help. So, the gameplay must be simple, but still challenging. Keep the rules simple.

- Short lenght. You need to be able to tell him, honestly, that he can complete it within the foreseeable future, even though he is an adult, has other responsibilities, and other hobbies he may want to pursue. Give him something he, as an inexperienced gamer, can complete in at least 8 hours.

- Accesible story. By that I don't mean that you should choose something with a "simple" story, but choose something that doesn't start out with a 5 minute cutscene, and don't require much prior knowledge. And, and this is something I think most people in this thread forgot, it has to be something that can be understood by someone who is not a gamers/geeks. Seriously. A lot of the stories we see in videogames makes much better sense to us, because we are used to that kind of stuff. Maybe we ar eused to it because of movies, or comics, or fantasy/sci-fi novels, or maybe from other videogames. But if you haven't already experienced some of the other "geeky" stuff, then videogames, and their stories, will be harder for you to understand.

- Non-violent. That doesn't just mean you dishing it out, it goes the other way too. Mirrors Edge is a terrible choice, same with MGS. It doesn't matter whether you fire a gun or not. What matters is if ANY guns are fired. Violence, not matter the recipient, means the game is about adrenaline(generalization taken to the extreme, but I hope you know what I mean), and if it's about adrenaline, then it is the games equivalent of action movies. And action movies are NOT what you want to show to someone who doesn't regard movies as a medium.


With those criteria in place, I will sugest: Portal.

It is short, so with effort, he can get through it without regretting your bet, and maybe evven giving up. Tell him how quickly it can be sppedrunned, and tell him how fast normal people complete it. It is completely non-violent for the most part, and the parts where guns ARE fired(the turrets), it is still not about adrenaline and running, but about figuring out how to get past them/deactivate them. The turets are interchangable with a pit, acid, whatever. It also gets going right away, without any lenghty cutscenes or explanations. The story is small, so not that hard to understand, but the beauty is about how it's told, and that will make a great argument in your favour. Also, the gameplay is incredibly simple: 2 portals, and physics. The game is not easy, so he will have to engage his mind(another point that will help your case), but he should be able to grasp the core principles of the gameplay fairly well, so he can pour his concentration into the game, instead of into how it works.

Don't tell him anything about the story. Let him explore it for himself. See if he can figure out what happened at Aperture. Just tell him that all he has to do, is explained in the game. Tell him it's short. And tell him to enjoy it, and promise to pay good attention to it.

If that doesn't change his mind, then nothing will.
 

Subbies

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Has anyone said Psychonautes? cause in terms of story setting and game-play it's really good, it's fairly easy in the beginning so a good way to start. Unfortunately it gets nigh impossible near the end so that's a drawback.
 

Seraj

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Wuggy said:
I'd suggest Portal 2: Engaging, non-violent, great narrative. Definitely on the high end of gaming.
I agree with this guy. No blood too :p
 

LarenzoAOG

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THEJORRRG said:
So I got into a discussion with my dad about how a game can be as engaging, worthwhile, and with a story as good as a book. He sees games as violent, blood filled, time wasters with no value, so I want to convince him otherwise! I got him to agree that if I could find a game I thought he would appreciate, he would play it all the way through.
So I need suggestions.
My first thought was Red Dead, but I haven't played it myself so I fear that the missions might just be shootout after shootout. Second thought was Silent Hill, but I don't want him to shit his pants.

So, I need a game that represents games at their absolute best, but something accessible enough for a total non-gamer to play and enjoy.
(Also, it'd have to be a PS2, PC, or Xbox 360 game)
Metro 2033, great atmosphere, good pacing, great story, and while it is an FPS there are many parts of the game that discourage violence and reward you for opting out of a shootout.

If you're trying to convince him that games can have as good stories as books this is the game for you because it was written by the author of the book by the same name.
 

ryo02

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metal gear solid series the whole point is NOT to kill as for art ico shadow of the colossus

I quite like breath of fire 3 and 4 you could try alundra , metro 2033 the first 2 oddworld games
 

Savber

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Feb 17, 2011
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I suggest Portal 1+2, Heavy Rain, or even Mass Effect.

It really depends on what he likes.
 

hailfire

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Bioshock. it poses philosophical questions about perfection, scientific alteration, and utilitarianism. bioshock actually made me sit down and wonder what I would do in a situation where I had to kill to save. on top of that, the plot and story line are original and well written. all in all a good game.
 

newwiseman

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I'd ask what kind of personality does your father have, and tailor your suggestion around that. If he's uninterested in the content he'll never be engaged.
 

DrOswald

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Engage wall of text!

The problem with video game stories is that you need to play the game to get to the story, which is a problem because non gamers can't play video games. Any game that is complex enough to prove your point will inevitably be too difficult for him to play. Video games are interactive by their nature and if he is unable to enjoy that interaction he will never appreciate video games. Video games, by their interactive nature, are far deeper and harder to comprehend than a book or movie. You need to earn that comprehension, and he has not.

Right now your dad has a set view point and he is sure you are wrong. He will never accept your argument until you are able to challenge his current perception of reality. You need to convince him of the inherent value of a game vs other media.

1. The first thing to do is tell him that in order to get your point across, you will need some time an hour or so, and you will be able to begin showing why games have value. Explain to him that you need this time because video games have a high barrier to entry because they are often created by different cultures and require highly developed skills to play.

1a. If he challenges this, pick a non violent and simple competitive game and challenge him to compare skills. Geometry wars 2 is great for this. The controls are very simpl, you only need the demo, and it is impossible to miss the point. Explain to him that you are going to prove that games require special skills and challenge him to a match. He will play a 3 minute match, and then you will play a 3 minute match. You will destroy him. Explain that this happened because you are better at games. It works even better if you have never played the game before.

1b. Tell him that you are now going to explain the primary aspect of video games as a game.

2. If your father is a sports nut, that is a really good place to start. Bring up his favorite sport. Lets say for arguments sake it is American football (my father's favorite sport.) Ask him why football is a good sport. He will tell you about teamwork, skill development, complex strategy, etc. Then ask him why watching football is an acceptable pastime. Point out that by watching football he is not reaping the benefits of playing the sport but using all the time that it would take to play the sport. Point out that it is only a game, after all, and really isn't that important.

2a. Challenge him to justify spectating professional sports. This will challenge his current perceptions, opening him to new ideas. Never be aggressive or confrontational and if he gets defensive point out that this is a hypothetical discussion, that you already understand why he values sports. Never attack his favorite things but don't let him derail the conversation.

2b. Next, you should compare video games to sports. Both require skill sets. Both require knowledge, both put us up against difficult challenges and require us to overcome. The primary difference between a video game and a sport is that one is primarily mental and the other is primarily physical.

Tell him to keep this in mind and that you will come back to this, but now you are going to move into the second aspect of video games, interactive story telling.

3. Chances are you have a pile of games around. Choose 3 or 4 out of them that have strong stories. Give your dad a short 1-2 sentence explaining the basic story of each with emphasis on the role of the player in these games. For example:

Bioshock is a game about a man who tried to create a utopian society which then fell under the weight of its own corruption. You explore the ruins of this society, piecing together how it all went so wrong.

Metal Gear Solid 4 is about a soldier who has fought all his life to avert world wide nuclear disaster. You take the role of the aging soldier who hates war in a world where war has become routine and impossible to avoid.

Fallout is about a hypothetical nuclear war that left the earth a desolate wasteland. In this game you take the role of a person struggling for survival in a desolate and cruel world.

Mass Effect is a science fiction space opera, like star wars, where we take the role a man desperately attempting to protect billions from a genocidal alien threat.

Make sure to throw in a few not violent games, such as:

Phoenix Wright, Ace Attorney is a comedy drama where you take the role of an attorney who protects the innocent from false accusations of murder.

You get the idea. pick the games before hand. Explain to him that not all games have this value, but many do.

3a Now tell him that the reason video games have unique narrative value is because they let us experience the story. In a movie we can see Mad Max explore a desolate wasteland, but in Fallout we explore that wasteland ourselves.

4. Show him the opening of one of the strong narrative games you showed him earlier. Make sure it is one with a strong opening cut scene, violence is not glorified, and is not Japanese made unless it is Metal Gear Solid 4. Not Half Life 1, 2, or Portal. Show him only the opening, don't let him get into actual game play.

4a. If you have Bioshock it is a great one to do. Let him control it if it is Bioshock. right up to the point where atlas first calls you on the radio. Don't let him go any further!

4b. Point out music, narrative themes that are introduced, etc.

5. Next, explain that you are going to show him how game designers view games. Explain that the video's you are about to show him were made by videogame designers to show the average joe how video games can have narritive value and why this narritive value is unique to interactive media. Show him these 2 video's.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/1974-Enriching-Lives

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2545-Narrative-Mechanics

Make sure you have them ready to play before this point so you only have to press play and you are in the video. The last thing you want here is an advertisement for duke Nukem to get in the way or for video lag to lessen the impact of these video's.

6. Tell your dad that now that he has the proper background to understand video games and interactive narrative, it is time to play a game. Portal 1 is our game of choice here, and it really needs to be portal 1. He will play the game, if only for a half hour or so. Explain to him that the game is a dark humor science fiction in which the player is in the place of a human lab rat at the mercy of an insane artificial intelligence. Before he starts, tell him that this is a pretty complicated puzzle game and that if he needs any help you would be more than willing. Stay with him while he plays. Show him by example that even a single player game can be a shared experience.

If nothing else, this should help your dad understand the value of interactive narrative. If you want, offer to play games with him, parents like to spend time with their kids.
 

ScoopMeister

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Biosophilogical said:
The main problem though is that some of the best stories, when combined with the necessity of gameplay (it is a game, duh) means they can take ages to complete and the plot developments are either clustered and distant, or only tiny little revelations every now and then.

I'd say FFX has a great storyline (and the villains are just brilliantly evil), but to fully appreciate you need to put like, 40+ hours into it (not to mention that some people find Tidus annoying).

I think the issue is that story length is causally related to story quality, so most games that have good stories are going to be difficult to start a new gamer off with. I mean, you could get lucky and find one of those games with a dynamic and emotionally-fuelled story that can be powered through in under 10 hours, but again, you have to somehow find something that is accesssible gamplay-wise, yet also manages to hold up to books in terms of story-telling capacity.
Portal is still a good choice.
 

Gentleman_Reptile

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L.A Noir might be a good choice.

I really like it because I find having to use my brain more than my reflexes for a change to be quite refreshing.

Uncharted 2 might be another good one, especially if he loves a summer blockbuster.

And of course, Portal.
 

Darknacht

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Give him an older 3rd person CRPG.
Planescape: Torment
Arcanum
Fallout
or even an JRPG:
Final Fantasy 1-6
Dragon Warrior 1-4
Chrono Trigger
Breath of Fire 1/2
Most of the 'Tails of' games

There are lots of story heavy JRPGs, many of them are more interactive movies then games, but some are good games.

Don't give him Bio-Shock to convince him that games aren't violent and evil, its unlikely that he would ever see far enough into it to see anything other than 'this is a game where you murder little girls'.
 

Jonsbax

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May 4, 2010
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Why do people have this need to shove games down the throat of every person they meet who clearly expresses disinterest towards them? I know I would be pretty damn annoyed, and that wouldn't help the gamer's case.

Can't you just tell your dad that since he hasn't played that many games (I'd assume so judging by his attitude) he's in no position to judge them, and maybe point out that the vast majority of books and movies are also just degenerating waste of time? An adult person with any sense would understand that argument, while pushing your own hobbies on people who have no appreciation for them usually doesn't work.