Hey Dragon, You Can Have Her: The Elder Scrolls IV - Oblivion

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SavingPrincess

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Feb 17, 2010
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[HEADING=3]A long, long time ago, there was a great hero. This hero did stuff, and things... along the way they saved the world too... I think... I can't remember.[/HEADING][hr]
[sub]For those who complain about the lack of pictures, I present a funny conversation between Ted and Sarah that can sum up the finer points of this review. (NSFW for language)[/sub]Defining a genre is about the most subjective, arguable thing you can discuss next to the idea of "What is Porn?" So, calling The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion an RPG is like calling Alien a sci-fi movie (it's horror by the way). So yes, while the game has RPG elements, it should really be called more of a "Generic Medieval Hero Simulator." If there were any genre that can suck the story out of an RPG, it's the western "Hero Sim" genre. So get ready generic, face-generated, dice-rolled hero #106, you're about to take a journey into a world where you can do a bunch of random stuff for random people so you can make money to get really cool armor you're not going to see 98% of the time.

The cool thing about being an editorial writer is that you're allowed to disagree with 98% of the general populace and still consider yourself "right." It's totally fun; try it sometime. That being said... The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion released to nearly universal critical appeal; you'd be hard-pressed to find a truly negative review of the game that wasn't laden with opinion and subjective-ness (like this one, for example). Garnishing near universal praise from every possible angle from Japan to Europe and everywhere in between, Oblivion seems to be the game that can do no wrong; to which I say: bullsh*t. It did plenty wrong... but what it did was mask its wrongness in so much... stuff... that no one could see the wrongness underneath. What Oblivion has going for it, is that it's big... it's really big; and despite what those girls keep telling you, size certainly does matter. For arguably the first time in gaming history, you were put into a world that if you could see it, if you were clever and patient enough, you could get to it. That, I'm afraid, is where the good stuff ends and the game itself begins.

Starting off in a fairly typical way, you're a (basically) nameless, (basically) faceless hero with zero back story or motivation, who has been thrown in jail for some reason or another (which I'm assuming you're supposed to invent for yourself) and it just so happens that they put you in the jail cell with the super-secret door to the "escape this way if all goes to sh*t" room that on this one particular day during your duration-less sentence, just happens to be needed. Then, when King Patrick Stewart and his decidedly non-Asian guard posse with their decidedly Asian katanas come through and press the rock that you most likely pressed your "A" button several times already, somehow their "A" buttons are more powerful than yours because at that time, a mechanical section of the stone wall moves out of way (with no apparent actual visible mechanical mechanisms) revealing a super secret, rather well-kept tunnel leading to supposed safety. As they all enter the tunnel, King Picard tells you he's been having dreams about you (creepy) and invites you, the prisoner, in jail, for quite possibly attempted-genocide, baby-eating and/or public threats of killing the King because you're actually a Medieval ancestor of Magneto, to follow him and his band of merry men on their way to the ultimate safety zone... I believe they call it "outside;" because obviously the ultimately evil forces at work went to the Grand Theft Auto school of pursuers and will give up the chase if you can get approximately 483 yards away from them for approximately 24 seconds. Happily tagging along so that you may escape and once again resume your baby-eating ways, the guard captain, with his menacing "big black man with the voice of a white 80's game-show host" demeanor, warns you that if you happen to betray the group and kill the king, he's going to be very upset about it.

It's at this time that the all-too-common "take this (random artifact) and give it to (random person)" story-opening mechanic gets underway. Shortly after handing you, the newly escaped convict/baby-eater, the cleverly named, fate of the world altering "Amulet of Kings", Professor King X gets murder-ified much to the discredit of the supposedly unstoppable secret-service bodyguard troupe that was the "Blades." It's sad, if only you were allowed to choose your class and powers before this whole nonsense, you probably could have landed a few well placed stealth back-stabs or fire spells that would have prevented this whole nonsense. Sadly, you don't receive any of your superhuman like proficiencies until after you leave the darkness of the sewers (origins only manifest themselves in sunlight apparently).

Okay, so the story is nonsensical, whatever... that's fine; I'm a fan of games like Final Fantasy and such so nonsensical stories are pretty much the norm for RPG's right? So let's not worry about that for a bit. What made Oblivion great is the exploration right? I mean, you can totally walk to that tree you see in the distance! How cool is that?! Well, very cool, if for the fact that the game didn't constantly make you walk to the damn tree you see off in the distance. Oh, but no worries, once you go to that tree, you can always fast-travel back to that tree, so really, you only have to walk to that tree once. Thankfully, you have available to you fine thoroughbred racehorse specimens like "Controls-Like-Sh*t" and "Stops-On-Bush" to help you get to that tree with the blistering speed of 1-Horespower. The neatest thing however, is while you're walking to said tree off in the distance to further the main story, you can stumble upon ancient tombs that hold treasures untold. The problem with that, is while you're walking to that tree off in the distance, you can stumble upon ancient tombs that hold treasures untold... thus completely distracting you from the fact that there is a main story.

Really, for all intents and purposes, they should have just let you break out of jail and sent you on your merry little way. It would have been great if you could choose your class and have that dictate the game's origin story, like... a thief for example. As a thief, once you broke out of jail, your immediate goal was to do thief-y type things, or possibly to repent yourself in the eyes of the townsfolk, your call. If you chose "guard" as your class/profession, maybe your immediate goal was to go get hired by someone to guard... something. If you were a "gladiator," your goal upon breaking out of prison would be to gladiate things. The story could have unfolded from underneath those basic, relate-able goals. For instance... maybe, as a thief, your basic personal goal is to steal the "Amulet of Kings" from the castle vault, where King Captain Ahab meets you and instead of stealing the amulet, he gives it to you as you, being a master of unlocking, should be able to protect it. Or, as a gladiator, you need to win a tournament to be granted an audience with King Ebeneezer Scrooge and he determines that as the winner of the contest, you would be the best person to protect the amulet from the Mythic Dawn, as his personal body guards tend to suck and let him get killed on occasion. The point being, is there were so many more interesting possibilities that would have set up the narrative in a much more personal way that tied in to who your character was as a person. Thankfully, BioWare, through their Dragon Age title gave us a decent (far from perfect) example of how this is possible.

When you start to analyze the mechanics of the game itself, things get even more crazy. [strong]Attention game designers[/strong], unless you design the entire game around it, melee first-person combat will suck. It's not something you can hide underneath other game elements like exploration or magic use. If you intend to give your player the ability to use a sword, you had better make them feel like they're using a sword in a logical, non-robotic way. Honestly though in melee combat's defense, nothing in the game moved well. Walking/running felt floaty and stiff at the same time; combat overall, melee or ranged, felt cheap and robotic... the entire game felt like your character was stuck in molasses and not at all as proficient as you were supposed to be given the fact that you were supposed to be able to beat up vampires and save the world. The whole game felt like it was designed in the 90's and then polished up to an unbelievable shine.

I will say this, for its day, few games looked prettier. The environments were unparalleled in their scope and lushness; so regardless of how inept you felt when you were there, at least the game did a good job of making you feel like you were there. Everything shimmered (for better or worse) as if it just came out of the dishwasher in a late 1980's dishwasher soap commercial; and while this may for the first few times make you feel as though your character has some sort of eye condition or was just birthed every time the sun came up, eventually you got used to it and understood that sh*t just glows. The actual textures were astonishing in some places and completely horrific in others... like people's faces. Seriously, it was like a person from a game from the late 90's was wearing the armor ripped out of Crysis; you can definitely tell where the design team spent their effort. If someone had stepped in from a project management position and said, "Dave, maybe instead of spending so much time making an armor texture where all 2,281 scales were perfectly drawn, we can work on a skin texture so we don't have to use the one from Morrowind?" then the experience of zooming in on someone's obnoxiously ugly face every time you spoke with them wouldn't have been quite so jarring.

Speaking of which, if you're going to have a game where in every character you meet has something verbal and voice acted to say, hire more than six voice actors; and if you can't, make sure each actor can do more than one or two voices. Hell, Seth McFarlane does about 12-15 indistinguishable voices between his two main shows (Family Guy & American Dad), you should at least be able to have your actors change it up a bit and not rely on people's hideous faces to help the player remember who they're talking to and if they've talked to them before. At no point in a voice acted RPG should a player get stopped by a peasant in the streets and say to themselves, "wait, didn't you just arrest me a second ago? Weren't you wearing armor? Why are you white now?" With as much development time and budget that they had for this game, these kinds of shortcomings are inexcusable. If you were walking around Cyrodiil (because all fantasy worlds require extra unnecessary consonants or vowels) and were blind, you'd be truly screwed as you'd never be able to tell who you were talking to. However, if you were blind, you'd be able to enjoy the fantastic musical score by composer Jeremy Soule who has scored more games you have played than you know (including a favorite of mine The Secret of Evermore).

All of this, everything I've written here, does not matter (as usual) as this game seems to get an overwhelming pass from the gaming community as a whole. There are people who still play it to this day citing the obnoxiously expansive AI as a reason to keep coming back. They all tell me the same thing "Oh, the main quest, that doesn't really matter; it's sort of meh." So let that be a lesson future "RPG" designers, main quest? Doesn't matter... just give people the opportunity to run around in a big shiny world and make up what's happening in their own head. Don't waste time and money on writers to craft a clever twisting narrative that spins through the world you create... just make a good AI system, give it some wild parameters and let the game do weird sh*t on its own.

[sub]SavingPrincess is a consistently disagreed-with, late-to-the-party game editorial author who fails to see the purpose of character level progression when the enemies level up right along side of you and thinks that would be like a car race where the harder you pressed the gas pedal, the faster the other cars would go. He also did about 90% of those Patrick Stewart references from memory.[/sub]

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Brotherofwill

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Jan 25, 2009
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I absolutely love Oblivion. Not as much as Morrowind, but I still had an awesome time. The story is garbage but the world and depth made somewhat up for it. It just had a good sense of immersion. I think it's a bit harsh that you put this under the "Dragon" category.

Like you said, I'm one of the people that is able (or maybe that needs) to look beyond the flaws and just enjoy the game.

The quick travel system is absolute tripe. It kills the scale of the game. I literally played around 20 hours of the game, had a great time walking around and then by accident discovered the quicktraveling. It sucked. I was just on some huge mountain range, which took me a good 2 hours to walk to (I just walked straight out of the city into the blue to see what would happen), and 'woop!' 1 button and I was in the safety of my city again. The limited travel system of Morrowing worked much better, and gave some nice restrictions of when and how you can get around.

Another thing is the enemy scaling which to me was a real game breaker. Again it took me a good 15 hours or so to realize that the mudcrabs I'd been fighting suddenly turned into wolves and then into demons. What's the point of leveling if the game levels with you? No sense of progression (which is essential for any RPG to work). Enemy scaling made me stop playing in retrospect. Lastly the leveling system itself. It's so clumsy. I hate that you can loose precious upgrade points if you don't fill out all the criteria. It lead to me restarting my charcter and playing the game with pen and paper next to my side. It makes leveling a chore. You have to constantly watch out not to jump too much or walk too much, and if you have to limit your own fun for the sake of leveling, something has gone wrong.
SavingPrincess said:
King Picard tells you he's been having dreams about you (creepy)
Hahaha. Reminds me of this.

 

SavingPrincess

Bringin' Text-y Back
Feb 17, 2010
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Brotherofwill said:
The story is garbage but the world and depth made somewhat up for it.
Yeah, see, I went into this expecting to play an RPG, but if you suck the story out of an RPG, you have a simulator, or at best, a strategy game. The fact that you can say "the story is garbage" when referring to an RPG, to me, means the game at best gets a 50% score.
Brotherofwill said:
Another thing is the enemy scaling which to me was a real game breaker.
I touched on this in sub at the bottom but thought I was one of the only people that really had an issue with it. I agree entirely, as when you remove the story, the other central aspect is character progression... with you telling me that you thought both of those aspects were broken, I don't understand what parts of the game were left to enjoy?

Math Fun Time!
RPG = [R]
Story =
Character Leveling = [C]
R = S + C
R - S = (R + C) / 2
R - C = (R + S) / 2
R - (S + C) = :(
 

Dedae

New member
Jan 24, 2010
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Indeed. The combat system just ruined this game. It was so flat and just didn't work. The game was beautiful, the world big, the possibilities endless, but the game's core, the combat, made the game frustrating and boring.
Some people might argue with you that the game's core isn't the combat, but the exploration. However, it's impossible to play the game or do anything without fighting, and every story quest in the game was 'fast travel here, fight, fast travel there, fight...'.
 

Onyx Oblivion

Borderlands Addict. Again.
Sep 9, 2008
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Furburt said:
Onyx Oblivion is coming, and he's ANGRY.
YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT THAT I'M FUCKING ANGRY.

Now...for one extremely long, hate fueled post edit. Or a double post.
 

Onyx Oblivion

Borderlands Addict. Again.
Sep 9, 2008
17,032
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Freebird. said:
Anyway, Oblivion was a game that I didn't like, but I could appreciate. It was a good game, just not a game that I liked.
Now...THAT is something I can understand.

Now, back to my hate fueled post tab.
 

SavingPrincess

Bringin' Text-y Back
Feb 17, 2010
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Onyx Oblivion said:
Furburt said:
Onyx Oblivion is coming, and he's ANGRY.
YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT THAT I'M FUCKING ANGRY.

Now...for one extremely long, hate fueled post edit. Or a double post.
Haha I'm fine with that. My opinions are rarely popular. Bring it! =D
 

Twad

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Nov 19, 2009
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Wraahh, one of my favorite rant material there. I mean i agree with you.

My points on that game are (so many more than taht)

Gameworld is huge, yet pretty much dead,inert and empty. THe "life AI" is pointless, frankly. Few NPCs actually look like they do significant work other than standing around.

Leveling system (for player) is broken, the only way to get a good character is to meta-game and grind (with the major-as-minor). If you take your main stuff as majors, you will gimp your character. Especially more if you try to make a non-combat character or give it non-combat skills.. since the game is all about fighting.

And of course, monster leveling-up at the same time as you do is.. just one of the worst thing the designers did with the game. No sense of progression at all. (OOO mod made it better, somewhat, at least a lowly brigand stays weak the whole game)

Magic system is so overpowered and broken, it makes the "rogue" and "warrior" archetypes useless. Magic just does whatever they do better than them, and it scale with level and you can adapt them easily as the game goes. Magic have so many effects there is just no way ennemies can even touch you if you know what you are doing. THe only limit is your mana.

By the same token, melee and archery is underpowered, even with sneak/poison/magic bonus. Seriously, at high level it takes so long to kill an average bad guy if you are archer or warrior your weapons will likely break before you are done.

Physisc is weird. Corpses fall down too softly,a big lack of gravity..

Even mods didnt solve the problem, Even my favorite mod (OOO mod) just made things more interesting and immersive,but the problem of overpowered magic and underpowered weapons is still there.
 

Onyx Oblivion

Borderlands Addict. Again.
Sep 9, 2008
17,032
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SavingPrincess said:
Onyx Oblivion said:
Furburt said:
Onyx Oblivion is coming, and he's ANGRY.
YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT THAT I'M FUCKING ANGRY.

Now...for one extremely long, hate fueled post edit. Or a double post.
Haha I'm fine with that. My opinions are rarely popular. Bring it! =D
Hang on...Rather than one long post, do you mind a point-by-point conversation style debate?
 

SavingPrincess

Bringin' Text-y Back
Feb 17, 2010
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SirBryghtside said:
I liked Oblivion, but I think you hit on all the bad points that made me prefer Morrowind (have you played that, by the way?). However I think you need to add a few more good points to balance it out, and none of that Yahtzee 'BUT THERE WERE NONE!' rubbish.
Ahh... yeah, see... balancing out... really not my thing. I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of why people like the game. That's the advantage of being an editorial writer as opposed to an impartial game-reviewer; you can only talk about the things that stood out to you. I appreciate what people appreciated about this game, but often times the experience is forgiven even if the sum of its parts leaves a lot to be desired.
 

SavingPrincess

Bringin' Text-y Back
Feb 17, 2010
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Onyx Oblivion said:
Hang on...Rather than one long post, do you mind a point-by-point conversation style debate?
Haha that's completely up to you sir. I respect your opinions on here for sure. As long as you know it's going to end up in an "agree to disagree" type of scenario, do your worst! :D
 

Onyx Oblivion

Borderlands Addict. Again.
Sep 9, 2008
17,032
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Twad said:
By the same token, melee and archery is underpowered, even with sneak/poison/magic bonus. Seriously, at high level it takes so long to kill an average bad guy if you are archer or warrior your weapons will likely break before you are done.
\
Melee works fine, with enchanted weaponry.

Archery, sadly, is, and always will be, utter shit.

Archers in that game start to suck at CONCEPTION.

Seriously, my archer had daggers (not swords, for role playing's sake) as backup...AND I ENDED UP USING THEM MORE THAN A BOW.
 

reg42

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Mar 18, 2009
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You nit-picked quite a lot. The thing with this game is that it's better than the sum of it's parts. I could break down almost anything to a fine point and make it seem shitty.

The exploration was the main reason I played the game (and Fallout 3), as you always find new stuff like Oblivion gates, dieties, caves, etc.

Also, no offense, but I struggled to read the review, because it was very wall-o-texty.
 

Pezzer

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Feb 15, 2009
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SirBryghtside said:
I think you hit on all the bad points that made me prefer Morrowind
He mentioned sucky combat, Morrowinds was just terrible in every way.
 

MiracleOfSound

Fight like a Krogan
Jan 3, 2009
17,776
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Hmmm...

OK.

I agree it was flawed. The combat and levelling are broken, but everyone knows that already.

You missed an important factor though: The immersion level of the game. The reason people love it is because the lore and history of the world are so deeply built and written.

There is in fact a lot of backstory in Oblivion, you just have to have to look around a little.

The world isn't just impressive in its looks, it's impressive in the way it is believable. all the cities have their own architecture, feel and cultures, as do all the races. The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood story lines are actually really good.

I think you didn't give it enough of a chance.
 

Onyx Oblivion

Borderlands Addict. Again.
Sep 9, 2008
17,032
0
0
SavingPrincess said:
Onyx Oblivion said:
Hang on...Rather than one long post, do you mind a point-by-point conversation style debate?
Haha that's completely up to you sir. I respect your opinions on here for sure. As long as you know it's going to end up in an "agree to disagree" type of scenario, do your worst! :D
SavingPrincess said:
Really, for all intents and purposes, they should have just let you break out of jail and sent you on your merry little way. It would have been great if you could choose your class and have that dictate the game's origin story, like... a thief for example. As a thief, once you broke out of jail, your immediate goal was to do thief-y type things, or possibly to repent yourself in the eyes of the townsfolk, your call. If you chose "guard" as your class/profession, maybe your immediate goal was to go get hired by someone to guard... something. If you were a "gladiator," your goal upon breaking out of prison would be to gladiate things. The story could have unfolded from underneath those basic, relate-able goals. For instance... maybe, as a thief, your basic personal goal is to steal the "Amulet of Kings" from the castle vault, where King Captain Ahab meets you and instead of stealing the amulet, he gives it to you as you, being a master of unlocking, should be able to protect it. Or, as a gladiator, you need to win a tournament to be granted an audience with King Ebeneezer Scrooge and he determines that as the winner of the contest, you would be the best person to protect the amulet from the Mythic Dawn, as his personal body guards tend to suck and let him get killed on occasion. The point being, is there were so many more interesting possibilities that would have set up the narrative in a much more personal way that tied in to who your character was as a person. Thankfully, BioWare, through their Dragon Age title gave us a decent (far from perfect) example of how this is possible.
That's a terrible plan for a game like Oblivion, which is "gameplay open". Unless you're an archer. Because archers suck without a TON of min-maxing of stats. You have to be down right ANAL to make a kickass archer. If you need an example as to why Oblivion is "Gameplay ope"...look no further than the Dark Brotherhood. All of the people at the Sanctuary like stealth. Except for the Orc. And whenever you talk to him, you see that you can be a brute force assassin. And the game ENCOURAGES this by having a large number of Dark Brotherhood questline targets NOT HAVING A BOUNTY when killed without stealth, and being in separate cells from guards. You're only loss is usually the bonus. And even then, the bonuses you lose aren't meant for a non-stealth character like you. It encourages you to tackle quests "your way".