Hideo Kojima's Death Stranding New Video (JAR BABIES!)

[Casual Shinji]

Perhaps, but it adds absolutely nothing of value to the discussion. I'm not the biggest fan of The Last of Us or Mass Effect but you won't see me shitting on people's parades every time those games are brought up.

The discussion is the new Death Stranding video, so both positive and negative views will come up. I don't hate Kojima or MGS, quite the opposite. And I'm actually interested in what Kojima is going to make, but this is just him being purposefully vague. And it's annoying when he's doing this theatrical song and dance instead of showing some hard data.

 

[crypticracer]

Perhaps, but it adds absolutely nothing of value to the discussion. I'm not the biggest fan of The Last of Us or Mass Effect but you won't see me shitting on people's parades every time those games are brought up.

The discussion is the new Death Stranding video, so both positive and negative views will come up. I don't hate Kojima or MGS, quite the opposite. And I'm actually interested in what Kojima is going to make, but this is just him being purposefully vague. And it's annoying when he's doing this theatrical song and dance instead of showing some hard data.

Remember MGS 2. A huge part of the game was not giving people what they want, (to play snake) but pretending he was, (showing snake in all the trailers.) If every game developer did this I would agree with you. But most of me is fine with the occasional game developer playing the long con. I also feel that there is no gameplay yet. I think we will see trailers like this for the next year still.

I hate CG in trailers, but as tantalizing ideas, before any game actually exists, I am fine with Kojima doing this. That said, I completely understand why people would not like Kojima's work.

Kojima is theatrical, he is cinematic, but he also makes games like nobody else.

Me? I am all for Mads, and phantom handprints, and Jar Babies, I just imagine the answer to any question is "nano machines."

EDIT: It's important to note that I hold the auteur theory in the highest regard, so that even if the game sucks, Kojima's place is already cemented in my mind and heart.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Do people actually forget the games Kojima has made? Because they aren't artsy, pretentious, or vague. Metal Gear Solid 2 while the most complex plot is told to the audience as completely as possible, it's not open for interpretations by any means. The MGS games are campy as fuck so I don't get the artsy or pretentious complaints. Heck, any comment saying Kojima's work is pretentious is itself pretentious.

It's not so much the games themselves, it's the way he teases the games that's pretentious.

Although both MGS2 and 5 are pretentious, shitty games either way.

By making you interested in what's going on and wanting to see how it all fits together is pretentious? The trailer was just one scene, it wasn't even a bunch of different scenes edited together. MGS2 was far from pretentious.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Remember MGS 2. A huge part of the game was not giving people what they want, (to play snake) but pretending he was, (showing snake in all the trailers.) If every game developer did this I would agree with you. But most of me is fine with the occasional game developer playing the long con. I also feel that there is no gameplay yet. I think we will see trailers like this for the next year still.

Yeah, I don't know if that's the best example. People didn't exactly take pleasure being fooled like that. And yes, I know that was "the point", but it didn't make the game experience any less garbage from the Big Shell onwards. And no, Raiden wasn't the main reason for that, but he certainly didn't help either.

Also, that first trailer showed gameplay. It was almost 10 minutes long of 'check out all this cool new shit you can do'.

By making you interested in what's going on and wanting to see how it all fits together is pretentious? The trailer was just one scene, it wasn't even a bunch of different scenes edited together.

It's not really getting me interested by showing me a bunch of random images and telling me nothing.

MGS2 was far from pretentious.

MGS2 was Bad Sequel: The Game. It was Kojima making a game about how he can't make a deserving sequel to MGS1. "Look, it's all inferior to Shadow Moses, it's all inferior to Solid Snake; Aren't I artistic and smart." He made some artistic expression at the expense of the audience's enjoyment, on purpose. And was trollish and pretentious.

 

[Mcgeezaks]

Remember MGS 2. A huge part of the game was not giving people what they want, (to play snake) but pretending he was, (showing snake in all the trailers.) If every game developer did this I would agree with you. But most of me is fine with the occasional game developer playing the long con. I also feel that there is no gameplay yet. I think we will see trailers like this for the next year still.

Yeah, I don't know if that's the best example. People didn't exactly take pleasure being fooled like that. And yes, I know that was "the point", but it didn't make the game experience any less garbage from the Big Shell onwards. And no, Raiden wasn't the main reason for that, but he certainly didn't help either.

Also, that first trailer showed gameplay. It was almost 10 minutes long of 'check out all this cool new shit you can do'.

By making you interested in what's going on and wanting to see how it all fits together is pretentious? The trailer was just one scene, it wasn't even a bunch of different scenes edited together.

It's not really getting me interested by showing me a bunch of random images and telling me nothing.

MGS2 was far from pretentious.

MGS2 was Bad Sequel: The Game. It was Kojima making a game about how he can't make a deserving sequel to MGS1. "Look, it's all inferior to Shadow Moses, it's all inferior to Solid Snake; Aren't I artistic and smart." He made some artistic expression at the expense of the audience's enjoyment, on purpose. And was trollish and pretentious.

That's a very not popular opinion to have considering MGS2 is probably the favorite among the majority of MGS fans. So he must've done something right.

 

[Casual Shinji]

That's a very not popular opinion to have considering MGS2 is probably the favorite among the majority of MGS fans.

I think MGS3 still takes that spot. MGS2 has in recent years been more positively regarded for what it did, but at the time it most definately was not. And I still hate it, despite it having the best controls and best level design (the tanker level) of the series.

 

[Casual Shinji]

MGS2 was the most interesting of the bunch. The stories became duller when Kojima stopped being "pretentious".

Sure, interesting in concept. Replaying a more flacid version of the Shadow Moses proceedings, with a whiney girlfriend attached to the save function, lame villains, and the most forced and boring codec conversations in the series is not my idea of a good time though.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

I still thought it was good in spite of all that, but it's not a game I can play over and over like the old ones. I may never replay MGSV and Peace Walker.

Tactical Espionage Operations < Tactical Espionage Action

I agree with most of the other points and this especially. The older games felt more focused, but still had options. The newer ones have a "one-and-done" feel to me, since many missions are redundant, like GTA. However I do like little things like collecting new music tapes to listen to in-game while you play, and the other story-based tapes to me are more convenient for the same reason vs. having to stop for a codec screen or a huge cutscene (at least for the initial play through).

The other very notable addition from a gameplay perspective is...it's so refreshing that Snake can actually RUN now. I know he was a geriatric in 4, and the older games were more forgivable due to simpler design, but it would've been mind-numbing if he had to shuffle through these big levels using his old moveset.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

It's not really getting me interested by showing me a bunch of random images and telling me nothing.

"Look, it's all inferior to Shadow Moses, it's all inferior to Solid Snake; Aren't I artistic and smart." He made some artistic expression at the expense of the audience's enjoyment, on purpose. And was trollish and pretentious.

Again, the trailer was a complete scene, how are the images random? It's not like Kojima just edited together a bunch of interesting clips/images all from different parts of the game. It's not hard to piece together some basic ideas about theme the game will have based on the trailer as several in this thread have done. Hell, the trailer is probably more coherent than the entirety of a typical Souls game.

That's not even what MGS2 was about. Kojima did basically what Bioshock did well before it with MGS2 yet Bioshock was praised while having perhaps the worst assassination plot ever. MGS2 is also perhaps my favorite MGS, it's hard to nail down a favorite considering each game in the series has something it does better than any of the other games. You mentioned MGS3 being better but that plot wasn't that good, the Shagohod's physics of launching a nuke farther by going fast makes no sense and how the money changes hands and ends up where it does is very unclear.

 

[Casual Shinji]

That's not even what MGS2 was about. Kojima did basically what Bioshock did well before it with MGS2 yet Bioshock was praised while having perhaps the worst assassination plot ever.

I don't like Bioshock either. So if it's any consolation I like even MGS2 better than any of the Bioshock games.

You mentioned MGS3 being better but that plot wasn't that good, the Shagohod's physics of launching a nuke farther by going fast makes no sense and how the money changes hands and ends up where it does is very unclear.

I didn't say it was better, just that it was considered the best among the majority of the fanbase. But if you'd ask me, yes, I do consider it better than MGS2, though still not as good as MGS1.

 

[stroopwafel]

]Sure, interesting in concept. Replaying a more flacid version of the Shadow Moses proceedings, with a whiney girlfriend attached to the save function, lame villains, and the most forced and boring codec conversations in the series is not my idea of a good time though.

That was the whole point of the game: to deny the player's expectations inherent to it's narrative themes. MGS2 deliberately disorganizes the structure of MGS1 to support it's theme of cultural memory(similarly as MGS5 with individual memory). The player tries to 'relive' it's previous experience similarly how society 'relives' cultural memories. Solidus referenced himself to ''Sons of Liberty'' the same as the historical version that terrorized the British colonial presence during the American Revolution. It is exactly this adherence to a cultural memory that made Solidus predictable and prone to manipulation. MGS1 created a 'myth' that dominated the player's actions which the game subsequently subverts similarly how a cultural myth originate from actions taken by people in a different time. Solid Snake also says to Raiden that he should follow his own path and decide for himself what to believe in as a juxtaposition to cultural memories not suited to current day problems(ie Solidus having failed). MGS2 also deals with uncertainty in times of excess digital information that withdraws people in their own little bubble that each feed society convenient half-truths without either context or progress(in this regard MGS2 was downright prophetic and predicted social media and information control way back in 2001).

MGS2 is not a story driven experience. It wasn't meant to be. The game's themes are communicated through the interactivity of the medium. MGS2 uses the medium of videogames itself as form to communicate it's themes. That makes it a postmodern masterpiece in my opinion.

 

[Casual Shinji]

snip

snip

I get that this is what it was going for, but it doesn't make the experience any more enjoyable or engaging for me. As I said, Kojima made an artistic statement at the expense of the audience's enjoyment. And a very blatant one at that. Which as a provider of entertainment you should never do. At best it makes it an interesting conversation piece, as opposed to a game that's actually fun to play.

You can make something boring and lame and say 'that's the point', but it's still boring and lame. Nothing about MGS2's point gave me any satisfaction or gave me any insight except into Kojima's mind having to follow up the succes of MGS1. And I'm sorry, but to me that wasn't worth suffering through the boring, drawn-out slog that was the Big Shell and its story and inhabitants.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I didn't say it was better, just that it was considered the best among the majority of the fanbase. But if you'd ask me, yes, I do consider it better than MGS2, though still not as good as MGS1.

-MGS1 is sorta the jack-of-all-trades; it does everything well but nothing too great.
-MGS2 easily has the best story
-MGS3 has the most content and length with great gameplay
-MGS4 has the best gameplay and controls and has MGO2, which still sets the bar for console online shooters with great controls and every feature PC online shooters have (server browser with customizable rooms).
-MGS5 has the most freedom I guess. I got distracted by MGO3 (not very good) and never got back to beat the single player.

So, the best MGS game is basically tied to what the person feels is the important aspect to a MGS game as each excels at something different.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

As I said, Kojima made an artistic statement at the expense of the audience's enjoyment. And a very blatant one at that. Which as a provider of entertainment you should never do. At best it makes it an interesting conversation piece, as opposed to a game that's actually fun to play.

MGS2 was damn fun to play still and very much improved on the gameplay as it's structured the same way as MGS1 so I don't see how it was less enjoyable to play. Most sequels keep the same structure like say the Batman Arkham or Dishonored series and neither have the jump in gameplay that MGS2 has. If you didn't enjoy the game, then fine, I'm not trying to convince you to like it. However, your reasoning isn't very logical as MGS2 made more improvements than most sequels do.

 

[Casual Shinji]

MGS2 was damn fun to play still and very much improved on the gameplay as it's structured the same way as MGS1 so I don't see how it was less enjoyable to play. Most sequels keep the same structure like say the Batman Arkham or Dishonored series and neither have the jump in gameplay that MGS2 has. If you didn't enjoy the game, then fine, I'm not trying to convince you to like it. However, your reasoning isn't very logical as MGS2 made more improvements than most sequels do.

The Tanker level was damn fun to play, the Big Shell not so much. And yes, gameplay wise the sequel was an improvement in every way, but then I never criticised that. It's its 'Let's recreate Shadow Moses, but lamer, on purpose.' that I have a bone to pick with.

 

[stroopwafel]

Nothing about MGS2's point gave me any satisfaction or gave me any insight except into Kojima's mind having to follow up the succes of MGS1. And I'm sorry, but to me that wasn't worth suffering through the boring, drawn-out slog that was the Big Shell and its story and inhabitants.

Fair enough. People who enjoy straightforward stories more are certainly to favor MGS1, 3 and 4. MGS1 has my favorite story as well; it's a slick spy thriller that is both incredibly engaging, funny and authentic adding lots of different elements and influences I didn't even know you could combine. However rather than giving us the exact same thing with it's sequel(like Phoenix said most games do) Kojima did something totally different with MGS2 which I really enjoyed as well. It atleast made the games very distinct and MGS2 introduced me to concepts I wasn't even familiair with making it even an educative experience. MGS2 is one of those rare games that transcends being mere entertainment. To this day there is nothing quite like it.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

The Tanker level was damn fun to play, the Big Shell not so much. And yes, gameplay wise the sequel was an improvement in every way, but then I never criticised that. It's its 'Let's recreate Shadow Moses, but lamer, on purpose.' that I have a bone to pick with.

I didn't at all feel like MGS2 was Shadow Moses but lamer on purpose. Dead Cell just wasn't as interesting as Foxhound just due to them being not as interesting, but I don't think at all it was done on purpose. MGS1's Foxhound was easily the most memorable squad to go up against in the series, they are just hard to top. MGS2's more interesting plot sorta offsets the weaker cast of villains. Each game in the series is sorta like that as each game does something great that the other games don't do great. MGS1 is basically the most balanced in that there isn't anything it does poorly/disappointingly, even the cutscene to gameplay ratio is just right.