High Fantasy/Sword and Sorcery/Whatever with a Female Main Protagonist

[Fappy]

So yeah. Canonical and commercial are very different.

For the purposes of this discussion they aren't. The question was wether or not Mass Effect was written with a male protagonist that was then given the option of being female after being written. The answer is "yes". And that's why I don't include Dragon Age, Mass Effect and the like as stories with a female lead protagonist.

I wasn't going to say anything, but it occurred to me that you might not actually have read the thread before posting.

He was addressing your point about there being a canon Shepard. He didn't steer the conversation in that direction, you did.

 

[HellbirdIV]

Just pointing out that the end result of what's "canonical" or not isn't based on how they advertise something.

So you completley ignored the repeated instances where I requested we not get bogged down bitching like Alpha-nerds about what a certain phrase does or does not mean in contexts other than our current one? Because there's a fairly clear point to my original post, and it isn't about your definition of the word canonical.

 

[hazabaza1]

Just pointing out that the end result of what's "canonical" or not isn't based on how they advertise something.

So you completley ignored the repeated instances where I requested we not get bogged down bitching like Alpha-nerds about what a certain phrase does or does not mean in contexts other than our current one? Because there's a fairly clear point to my original post, and it isn't about your definition of the word canonical.

I notice one instance, just sayin'.

And I wasn't responding to your OP either. If I was I wouldn't have quoted a specific point.

 

[rcs619]

I'm going to come right out and say it;

I love J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium.

The sweeping, iconic North European landscape of Middle Earth. The elegant, wise, calm Elves, the brutal, snarling, rampaging Orcs, the heroes that live myths, the everymen that still stand for something, and the way magic remains truly magical.

Ever since I saw the first of Peter Jackson's adaptations in early 2002, I've been completley hooked. I read the Hobbit and the entire Ring trilogy before the Two Towers hit cinemas. I started reading the Silmarillion while waiting on Return of the King.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that I am very, very biased in favour of the traditional style of modern Western fantasy.

I say this because I've been inclined to write some kind of epic fantasy in this vein for a long time, with 20-odd ideas bouncing around my head at any given time. And I recently settled on a simple concept that has one, quite major, hindrance;

I have never in my life seen or read a "High Fantasy" (or whatever you prefer to call it, I'm not getting into a debate about what does and does not constitute a certain genre of fantasy literature) story whose primary protagonist was female. There are bits and pieces. Plenty of women in secondary or supporting protagonist roles, especially in what we consider more "modern" (as in setting) fantasy.

Yet it seems to me that movies, games and books where a Brave Hero(tm) must go out and Slay The Dragon(tm) or Save the Kingdom(tm), unless it's a deliberate parody or bitter commentary, the protagonist is always a man? (I'm not counting video games with "optionally female" protagonists. That's just silly.)

Am I just looking in all the wrong places? Please, internet - prove me wrong. Just this once I'd hate to be right.

I'd say that your best best for that nowadays is probably A Song of Ice and Fire, by George R. R. Martin. The way it's structured, there isn't a true "main" character, but more like a half-dozen or so protagonists going about their business in different parts of the world that the books bounce between.

Within the females of A Song of Ice and Fire, there's actually quite a nice variety. The exiled daughter of a deposed King, trying to rebuild her family's honor and kingdom. A noblewoman with dreams of being a knight, in a world where her size, strength, and unattractiveness has only gotten her mocked and mistreated. The mother of the current King, who is seeing more and more of her power slipping away as he grows older and sits on the throne for longer. And even a young girl, far from home, just trying to survive in a pretty harsh situation.

That's not even including a bunch of other female characters who play important supporting roles, or are vital characters to the plot, but just haven't gotten a chapter devoted to their point of view yet. While women don't have a lot of actual rights and power in Westeros (or the rest of the world, for that matter), they are often depicted as quite intelligent, and cunning, and able to have much more power and influence than you'd expect.

I'd say in terms of style, it's got a Lord of the Rings sort of vibe. Epic, sweeping fantasy across a massive, extremely well-developed world. The only intelligent species living in the world seems to be humans, but there's so many differences in culture, religion and basic values that some of them may as well be different species from the others. The thing I like about it is how understated the magic is. People aren't going around tossing fireballs and magic-missiles at each other. Magic in A Song of Ice and Fire is much more passive. It's mysterious, ancient, ritualistic and less-obvious, but it is extremely powerful. It's more akin to an ancient, primordial force, than something any wizard can just, learn to do. Even the people who use it don't truly understand all of it.

The setting has a very medieval vibe to it. All the monsters have been killed or driven north, and magic disappeared from the world centuries ago when the last dragon was hunted down and killed. It all seems fairly normal... which only increases the impact of when the magic and monsters of old slowly begin to trickle their way back into the story to shake up the assumptions you've been making about the nature of the world the story takes place in.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

For the purposes of this discussion they aren't. The question was wether or not Mass Effect was written with a male protagonist that was then given the option of being female after being written. The answer is "yes". And that's why I don't include Dragon Age, Mass Effect and the like as stories with a female lead protagonist.

You are unequivocally wrong on this point. Mass Effect was not written wite a mal protagonist, it was written for either. Every single line of VA in which Shepard is referred to has two versions for he/she and him/her. Every line of Shepard's dialogue is duplicated by Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale. Both have love interests available and there is no difference in ability. The same is true for all BioWare games, including the EA ones (as much as I hate to give EA credit for anything).

It can be said that Mass Effect does not have a female protagonist. It cannot be said however that it does have a male one however. Mass Effect and Dragon Age, KotOR, Jade Empire, even Baldur's Gate and NWN all play the same regardless of gender. Their protagonists/player-characters can be either sex and the game plays the same.

Anyway, CBA with yet-another gender thread.

 

[Lyiat]

Well, you have several D&D books with female leads. The War of the Spider Queen is a very notable example. Then you have the iconic D&D characters, Mialee the Elf Wizard, Lidda the Hafling Rogue, and Ember the human monk, all of which have appeared in the Greyhawk setting and a movie.

Then you have the iconic canon Exalted characters, such as Harmonious Jade and Ahn-Aru, all of which are full protagonists in their own right and have their own stories.

 

[wetfart]

Ahriman's Prophecy, Aveyond and Aveyond 3 focus primarily on a female protagonist. I'd be tempted to include Aveyond 2 but your first quest as Ean is to save Iya, your female friend. Iya however does play a prominent role, above and beyond love interest.

Not strictly high fantasy but the Bloodsucking Fiends books by Christopher Moore have a vampire female protagonist. However, it is a modern setting.

 

[trollnystan]

David Eddings comes to mind (One of my favorite authors) he wrote a book called polagra the socreress which is the backstory of Polgara, one of the main characters of the Belgariad and the Malloreon pentalogies.

Like seriously, check those books out! This guy is seriously underrated. Pogara the Sorceress had me near in tear at some point. Start with the main pentalogies (about 200 pages in each book so you can chomp through it) then read belgarad the sorcerer and after that polgara the sorceress. Like seriously, do it. you'll thank me when you're done!

I would put david eddings up there with tolkien and g.r.r. martin!

Sorry, but will have to disagree with you there. I have no respect left for either Eddings' artistic integrity as they went on record[footnote]Admittedly that record is probably lost now that their official website is gone.[/footnote] to say that the reason their stories all follow the same formula - including stock characters etc - is because it obviously sells so why bother changing anything? Yes, why bother creating new things, when you can just copy-paste your old stuff? So to my mind he and his wife were in the business of writing, not the art. Which is fine - money helps put food on the table, etc - if only they'd kept up the quality of their work. Which IMHO they didn't.

Spoiler: Probably incoherent rant on Eddings' books

The Belgariad was pretty good; The Malloreon was all right but rewrote some of what was established in Belgariad as canon; Belgarad the Sorcerer rewrote even more canon in a haphazard way; Polgara the Sorceress ditto. I can totally buy the "different people remember differently" thing, but when the characters contradict themselves more often than not... well.

Then there is The Elenium and The Tamuli trilogies. I admit I quite enjoyed the Elenium - the first book especially felt pretty fresh. The Tamuli however felt like Malloreon Mk 2 mostly.

Then there's The Redemption of Althalus, where basically what remote chance the bad guy had of winning was done away with in the first half of the book IIRC, making the second half a rather boring recount on how clever the protagonists are; they spend half the time snickering into their sleeves at the bad guys.

I didn't even bother buying the first book of the The Dreamers because of RoA; I borrowed it at the library instead and boy am I glad for that. Awful, awful book. The personalities given to the characters when first introduced where tossed out the window at whim. At one point I believe one character - a dour and grim fellow IIRC - cracks a joke by saying, "Oh if so-and-so were here, he'd totally say this!" despite that going against his established personality - what little there was of it.
/end rant

Ugh no, David Eddings is no Tolkien or George R.R. Martin. They seem(ed) to at least invest some of their hearts into their work; Eddings stopped doing that halfway through The Tamuli.

*raises flame-proof shield*

---------

OT: Going to keep an eye on this thread as I'd like some tips of the same. As for my own tips...

I have read the Paksenarrion books, but it was a long time ago so I don't know if I'd recommend them now. 20 year old me would, so take that as you will.

Also love Tamora Pierce's books set in her Tortall universe. They're youth books but good, especially the Beka Cooper books IMO. Don't know if they fall under High Fantasy though.

I also like Robin McKinley, another youth book author; not all (or any??) of her books fall under High Fantasy however. A lot of her books are more retelling of fairy tales. Highly recommend Deerskin though. Oh, and The Blue Sword and The Hero and the Crown too; those two are set in the same world as each other, second one being a prequel of sorts.

Would love to know of more "grown up" authors that write fantasy with female protagonists though.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

I guess a lot of Tamora Pierce's novels might count as what you're looking for. Not so much elves and dragons, but very definitely sword and sorcery and very definitely about women.

I suppose, if you want to go farther back, there's also stuff like Red Sonja.

I know there are more, but I gave up on most high fantasy after high school because I find other genres (even within fantasy and science fiction) to be much more engaging.

 

[Sack of Cheese]

What do you mean? Every piece of Mass Effect fiction either lets you decide what gender Shepard is or avoids the question altogether.

Isn't the Shepard in the upcoming movie still gonna be male though? I read about the rumours.
Still think ME will be more unique if female Shepard was more recognised, I mean, in most sci-fi, the main character is always a male. =\

 

[Da Orky Man]

There's a series out from Black Library that, from what I can tell, has a woman in the main role, but she's also a vampire and it's set in the Warhammer world so it's probably closer to low
fantasy.

Looking at the Wikipedia definition of low fantasy, "nonrational happenings that are without causality or rationality because they occur in the rational world where such things are not supposed to occur."

Warhammer may be classed as dark fantasy, but also as high fantasy. Its a different world to this one, with common magic, elves, dwarfs, orcs, undead, and so on.

Also, depending on whether or not you could classify the Dark Magician trilogy as 'high' fantasy, there could be an example. A good female protagonist, in a world with magic, but no creatures like orcs or such.

 

[HellbirdIV]

Wow, there actually came in a lot more suggestions than I expected. I'm going to go through the thread and compile a list later when I've time!

So then Yuna, arguably the main character of FFX (and most definitely that of FFX-2) counts. So does Terra from FFVI.
But then, contrary to current popular belief, Final Fantasy is usually ahead of the curve (no pun intended).

While Yuna is the most plot-essential character and indeed, the story of FFX is hers, Tidus is the "protagonist" as the player character. With that said I think you're right that Final Fantasy (and indeed Japanese stories in general) tend to be a lot better at giving both genders proper screentime and focus.

... Unfortunately, I wanted to find examples from Western fantasy.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

SNIP

Ah, so now I know.

 

[loc978]

Well... I came in here to point out that Daenerys Targaryen is arguably the main protagonist of A Song of Ice and Fire, and Terra (Tina, whatever) Branford is arguably the main protagonist of Final Fantasy VI... but it's been done for me.

So yeah, there are a lot of sources to pull from for inspiration (even if they're not all high fantasy, FFVI being sorta magi-steampunk)... but this genre (like most others) is most definitely dominated by straight, white males. We've got a long way to go. I applaud you for wanting to break the mold.

 

[The_Echo]

Dragonborn from Skyrim: Canonically male (and Nord)

Source?

Same thing with Shepard in ME. Every single piece of promotional art/video shows the big burly male caucasian.

I'm not sure that promotional materials are really... canon. I mean, that FMV trailer for BioShock Infinite is an entirely non-canonical scene.

The lore isn't exactly the strictest lore in the universe by any stretch, but it's intentionally vague about its Hero[in]es due to the games allowing players full control over the hero's race and gender. They chose to promote Skyrim with a Nord presumably because Nords are native to that province, and a male because apparently girls don't sell games.

 

[austinmus4]

Well, in the book Elminster, the Making of a Mage the protagonist turns into a female for awhile, does that count?

 

[lacktheknack]

You say "optionally female," I say "Optionally male."

Revan from KotOR; Canonically male (and Caucasian)

Shepard from Mass Effect; Canonically Sheploo.

Dragonborn from Skyrim: Canonically male (and Nord)

That's why I say "Optionally female". They are almost always written as males first before being female is added as an option, and invariably it's also the "Secondary" option (with Default always being set to Male).

Too cynical? How come Female Shepard could romance Liara, y'think? Why do you suppose Morrigan getting pregnant is one of the "good" outcomes for Dragon Age: Origins?

Bioware has stated multiple times that there is no canon Shepard. Promotional material =/= canon.

Bethesda's always been the same way. There is no canon protagonist in any of the games. Every character anyone has ever made is canon and not canon at the same time. TES lore is funny that way.

Oh so much. "The Warp in the West" tells you everything you need to know about TES lore.

OT: I liked what Geneforge did in terms of canon. Invariably, when referencing the main character of a previous game, they say "a young Shaper did... something incredible/unspeakable." Due to "Shaper" being the general term given to anyone in the whole organization you're from in each game, this means that literally anyone you play, male or female, Shaper, Guardian or Agent, and several possible endings of the games, are all potentially canon. The truly canon one is never revealed.

 

[Furbyz]

Well, I read them 12 years ago, but The Blue Sword and The Hero and the Crown by Robin McKinley come to mind. I honestly don't remember too many of the details beyond that I loved them as a kid. I have no clue if my taste holds up, though. This wasn't too long before I fell in love with The Sword of Truth series, which I pretty much hate now.

I'm not sure if it would count as high fantasy as I want to say that the story and culture had a distinct Arabian Nights meets European fantasy flavor.

 

[Akytalusia]

there is a game i played some time ago called Faria [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faria:_A_World_of_Mystery_and_Danger]. it's always stuck out to me because it had a female protagonist. it's a exactly what you're looking for, if.. well, old. really old.

edit: and back then i never actually finished it, and i didn't have internet at the time, so i had no idea that they copped out near the end of the game. there's some serious bs right there. guess it's back to the drawing board.