Man, I wasn't expecting anyone to catch that one, that's awesome, keep watching for black in the skyDaddy Go Bot said:
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Hip-Hop and Rap: What are your thoughts?
- Thread starter lwm3398
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I like raps, but not when it is always about drugs, money and girls. I like it when it is cleverly critizicing steroetypes and other kinds of obnixous people. Or when it is about real life and situations. I do not like stuff like Lil Wayne or Wiz Khalifa, but I do like eminem, thelonelyisland, jonlajoie.
Very much so. Lyrically, Linkin Park may actually try to maintain the pretense of being about something, but their music is as faceless and devoid of depth as Li'l Wayne. They sound to me as though they pulled a composer off of CSI and grouped him with a former boy band singer and a wigger with an inflated sense of his own talent. Li'l Wayne literally brags about how many toilets he has to shit in, in the most monotone, passionless voice you've ever heard someone attempt poetry in. So yeah, they both belong to the bubblegum-__ genre.Scrubiii said:
While I agree with you completely about Li'l Wayne, I completely disagree about Linkin Park.funguy2121 said:
Firstly, disregarding the lyrics, their music itself is completely different from Li'l Wayne. Secondly I've never heard a boy band singer scream before, but if you know one that does, please point me to him.
I also fail to see how Mike Shinoda is in any way a wigger or has "an inflated sense of his own talent". The fact that a white person raps doesn't make them a wigger as long as they show an individual style and don't punctuate every sentence with the word 'muthafucka', and I see no way in which he ever makes a reference to his own talent.
Finally, in regard to their music being "devoid of depth", this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrbL1s9qwBs was recorded after the Haiti earthquake. All money made from it went to disaster relief from the Earthquake. I don't understand how it, many of their other songs can be considered as devoid of depth as the crap Li'l Wayne puts out.
Even if I did agree with you about them, the fact that they even "maintain the pretense of being about something" puts them far above Li'l Wayne by default.
(1) Their music is a different style, but it's still a style where artistic choices are made by a producer who then directs the band. Even where this is not the case, it still sounds like it. The instruments don't sound like instruments - Hell, you don't ever even hear the drummer or the bassist. It sounds like a band impersonating an electro-pop sound impersonating rock music. That's prefab. It's got watered down rap (not much rhythmic sensibility and it ain't exactly poetry) over the guitar parts that make Coldplay sound like Rush, and while I'm aware that the vocalist(s?) sometimes screams (which sounds just like the singer for Stabbing Westward), most of the time when he's being melodic it sounds like an Nsync ballad. I don't know the names of the songs but there was one which was just melodic singing and bloops and bleeps. I seriously thought it was a boy band until the DJ said "Linkin Park" afterward. That's bubblegum. Prefab bubblegum may appeal to you, and it certainly can be used on any style, but if it is prefab bubblegum it may as well be Rebecca Black or Rascal Flats, as it holds no interest for me.Scrubiii said:
(2) It comes across as though the band thought they wouldn't hold enough mass appeal, so they brought in a white guy to do some very very white rapping. I'm not insulting Eminem or MC Slug here - they don't begin every song with "Yo...yo" and when they do it comes across as ernest, which in my opinion Linkin Park's rapper does not. I am glad that Linkin Park doesn't render the f word meaningless the way that Limp Bizkit's resident wigger, Fred Fratboy Durst, did. But I don't see anything that points to individual style. Maybe he doesn't actually reference his own talent, but the whole band comes across that way. They aren't bringing crazy super-rhythmic rhymes like A Tribe Called Quest, they aren't doing anything crazy and unique with the guitar work like The Pixies or The Yeah Yeah Yeahs, they aren't taking older styles and doing something new with them the way that The Black Keys and The Kings of Leon Do, and they damn sure aren't showing transcendent musicianship the way that The Mars Volta or Tool perform. Any time I see someone on stage jumping up and down like they're rocking out and they're just hitting the odd note here and there like an auxiliary percussionist in an orchestra, it comes across as having an inflated sense of one's ego. I could be wrong, so I'll redact that statement.
(3) Funny you should say that. On the subject of rappers, one of my favorites from the 90's was Wyclef Jean. I had the dichotomous experience of being simultaneous admiring for his continued commitment to the nation of Haiti and appalled at the cheesy, frankly lame musicianship that he displayed with the song he wrote and performed after the disaster. I'm sure he didn't have hours and hours to mess around on his guitar and twiddle knobs like when he wrote "Gone 'Til November" and "Guantanamera," but this song was just bad. Anyway, the point is that lots and lots of artists, of varying degrees of talent, lend their celebrity in different ways to helping the aid effort after a crisis like this. And good on them. This does not, however, mean that they are deep. It means 1 of 2 things: they are good people, or they thought it would make them look good. As there is no way for me discern which, I'll assume the former.
If everyone agreed, particularly when it comes to art, the world would be a boring place. I'm glad you feel passionately about this band. I just fundamentally disagree. If you like, you can make fun of me for listening to Erasure
funguy2121 said:Scrubiii said:If you like, you can make fun of me for listening to Erasure
Nothing to be ashamed of sir! Bit of Depeche Mode does not go amiss either.
Regards to rap, I would have to say I am not a huge fan. I quite like political rap or a variant on the usual 'bragging' lyrics. I would also add that hip-hop that mixes in live instruments is quite nifty too.
Some of the hip-hop artists I quite like are: Goldishack Guerrillas, Flobots, Matisyahu, and such. Something a bit different. However, I am no connoisseur of the hip-hop world, so I could be talking rubbish.
You sir are a fucking dolt.William Ossiss said:
Mister Expert In Hip Hop, please refer me to your source that 97% of rappers are or were criminals. I'll wait.
But yeah, you're totally right about the street crime thing. Rap invented street crime and street gangs.
Fucking dolt.
<youtube=5Z_UiEz5Uxs>
GUNZ YO.
Also -
GUNZ YO.
Also -
You might be aware of the following group already, but you didn't mention them so I feel sort of obliged to, because if you're missing them then DANG. I'm talking about Doomtree. Going solely off the information provided in your post, if you don't know them you probably know P.O.S.; he's a member.redlueliger said:
for the record, im done with this topic. id rather not waste my time trying to convince people that rap and hip hop have ruined what could have been today's popular culture.AgentNein said:
also, 100% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Hip-hop is my favorite genre by far. I initially hated it when I was younger, but I grew to enjoy it. If someone really wants to get into the hip-hop scene, but isn't a fan of the hardcore gangster rap I've come to love, I'd suggest looking at some of the outstanding Canadian rappers available, specifically the entire Backburner crew. By the way, I'd like to specify that rap isn't really a "genre" so much. Rap is something you do; hip-hop is something you live.
What makes the majority of rap terrible is what makes the majority of pop or rock terrible: most songs are written while only paying attention to one particular aspect of what could make it interesting. For rap, it's having a rhythm to your delivery and making sure every fucking line rhymes, usually regardless of the impact that going out of your way to force a rhyme has on your story, which is really the essence of any exposition, isn't it? Telling a story? Otherwise it's just for want of hearing noises come out of your mouth.
It seems funny to me that a musical genre so focused on language, which makes it naturally designed for storytelling, sees its most popular artists shame any sort of literary ambition in the mainstream. In a song whose narrator describes the police's desire for proof that he is, in fact, committing a crime, is it really necessary to go into an entire verse's length of detail about your car? I don't think so. If you want to know details about someone's car modifications, there are plenty of internet videos, tv shows, even fucking car shows where you can find those things. Fuck, make some friends who work in an auto body shop. Don't call it fucking music. If you want to be detailed and informative, why don't you rewrite every other verse in your song to read like step-by-step instruction for how to install all of those things in your car? I would find it much more valid than whatever other vapid bullshit you were on-and-onning about.
Given the prevalence of "songs" like the one I just described, it's easy for critics to get overly worked up even when something matches a base description of what could remotely constitute art (if you squint your brain hard enough). Mediocre artists like Kanye West and Lil' Wayne being unfairly lauded since nobody in the genre's mainstream is daring to do anything different or interesting. Not like that's not a complaint you can have about the mainstream of any genre, but in a genre where simplicity is valued (see Lil' Jon - Snap Yo Fingers) the standard of quality is considerably lower. Regardless, a two-trick pony does not make a rap virtuoso.
Now that I have a bit of complaining out of my system, it's just about time to get to what I do like. There's nothing less valid about the esthetic of the rap/hip-hop sound as compared to other genres. They're fond of simple drum beats, deep bass, and poppy choruses the same way country music fans like twang, hokey slang and an intact drawl and metalheads prefer double-pedal kicks, guitar squeeblies and indistinct vocal frying. It's all a matter of taste. You'll naturally prefer one thing over another and whatever is the polar opposite of your preference will draw your disdain (and for some genres with significant elitism almost anything different at all). Personally, there are so many things to enjoy about music and a broad range of emotion that I'm comfortable relating that to dismiss any genre entirely just wouldn't be giving it any chance.
As I said before, there is a certain literary ambition inherent in rap due to its emphasis on language. I like to see lots of wordplay and allusion in my rap, but not one that rests entirely on technique. I like to see a story and I like that story to remain focused, points deducted for lines included only to satisfy the AABBCC system (which is excusable itself based on the actual content and the fluidity of the actual rhymes). It's always nice to see someone get tired of that rigid condition during the creation process and play with the expectation in the finished product. One of the only lines I enjoyed from Kanye West, who is an abhorrent lyricist, was 'She got a light-skinned friend look like Michael Jackson, Got a dark-skinned friend look like Michael Jackson'--not a great line from nowhere near a decent song, but clever enough to catch me off guard.
Another overlooked aspect of rap/hip-hop which could improve the genre in many more music fans' eyes is the actual fucking music. Originally the beat in rap was meant to provide a framework for the lyrics of rap in much the same way the stereotypical bongos served a beat poet. It was just a way to make sense of the rhythmic delivery. But due to this aspect of nearly all of the genre's progenitors, sampling has become a overly relied upon tradition if not a crutch. Really Kanye West? I don't think I can proudly listen to 21st Century Schizoid Man ever again. Jay-Z? Forever Young was one of the shittiest songs of the 80s that was already over-its-head indebted to Bach, what makes you think some prerecorded Casio hip-hop beat would turn it into a "hot track"? I know I'm veering back into complainy territory, but sampling in hip hop at that level of obviousness completely belittles any sense of artistic achievement. It's literally re-marketing something someone else has already created. You might take pride in your business sense, but the more art resembles business, the less art means (using the term art very generally here). Unless your sampling is utilized at a higher skill level (e.g. Paul's Boutique or Endtroducing...) or resembles a different kind of art form based off of music (like the sound collages of Christian Marclay or John Oswald), then you have no right calling yourself a musician, let alone an artist.
Uh... where was I? Umm... create something on your own. Be proud of it. If you can't make music, have someone else do it for you. Although that's the debatable purpose of sampling, as an author of music, it's riding someone else's coattails in a way significantly different from a pure collaboration. As if copyright were the prison keeping all songs in check, you're always going to find some who won't entirely mind a shower raping (or at least some who will be coaxed into it for enough cigarettes); it just doesn't mean you should be proud if the warden cracks a smile when he catches you.
Anyway, I'm not sure I completely finished my thought, but let me just briefly say I'd enjoy the music if not wholly original, to be presented in an original way. I don't mind so much if the only chords in your song are E, G, A, C, or D (major or minor) so long as I can't immediately tell that they are.
So my suggestions here should encapsulate most of what I was generally describing as being indicative of what I consider good music. They utilize different musical arrangements, moods aside from the dumbed down party atmosphere, gunfight in the street scenario, hey I have lots of drugs and money braggadocio of most rap (btw, if this is their first single, how the fuck did they already get all that money anyway?). They tell a focused story that has a point without reverting to those old tropes while still referencing them. While they don't all necessarily do all of these things all at the same time, those that don't can rest on what may be slightly more well-worn territory to support their particular artistic points of view and lend a character to their mini stories that might not have been achieved via a more aberrant path.
It seems funny to me that a musical genre so focused on language, which makes it naturally designed for storytelling, sees its most popular artists shame any sort of literary ambition in the mainstream. In a song whose narrator describes the police's desire for proof that he is, in fact, committing a crime, is it really necessary to go into an entire verse's length of detail about your car? I don't think so. If you want to know details about someone's car modifications, there are plenty of internet videos, tv shows, even fucking car shows where you can find those things. Fuck, make some friends who work in an auto body shop. Don't call it fucking music. If you want to be detailed and informative, why don't you rewrite every other verse in your song to read like step-by-step instruction for how to install all of those things in your car? I would find it much more valid than whatever other vapid bullshit you were on-and-onning about.
Given the prevalence of "songs" like the one I just described, it's easy for critics to get overly worked up even when something matches a base description of what could remotely constitute art (if you squint your brain hard enough). Mediocre artists like Kanye West and Lil' Wayne being unfairly lauded since nobody in the genre's mainstream is daring to do anything different or interesting. Not like that's not a complaint you can have about the mainstream of any genre, but in a genre where simplicity is valued (see Lil' Jon - Snap Yo Fingers) the standard of quality is considerably lower. Regardless, a two-trick pony does not make a rap virtuoso.
Now that I have a bit of complaining out of my system, it's just about time to get to what I do like. There's nothing less valid about the esthetic of the rap/hip-hop sound as compared to other genres. They're fond of simple drum beats, deep bass, and poppy choruses the same way country music fans like twang, hokey slang and an intact drawl and metalheads prefer double-pedal kicks, guitar squeeblies and indistinct vocal frying. It's all a matter of taste. You'll naturally prefer one thing over another and whatever is the polar opposite of your preference will draw your disdain (and for some genres with significant elitism almost anything different at all). Personally, there are so many things to enjoy about music and a broad range of emotion that I'm comfortable relating that to dismiss any genre entirely just wouldn't be giving it any chance.
As I said before, there is a certain literary ambition inherent in rap due to its emphasis on language. I like to see lots of wordplay and allusion in my rap, but not one that rests entirely on technique. I like to see a story and I like that story to remain focused, points deducted for lines included only to satisfy the AABBCC system (which is excusable itself based on the actual content and the fluidity of the actual rhymes). It's always nice to see someone get tired of that rigid condition during the creation process and play with the expectation in the finished product. One of the only lines I enjoyed from Kanye West, who is an abhorrent lyricist, was 'She got a light-skinned friend look like Michael Jackson, Got a dark-skinned friend look like Michael Jackson'--not a great line from nowhere near a decent song, but clever enough to catch me off guard.
Another overlooked aspect of rap/hip-hop which could improve the genre in many more music fans' eyes is the actual fucking music. Originally the beat in rap was meant to provide a framework for the lyrics of rap in much the same way the stereotypical bongos served a beat poet. It was just a way to make sense of the rhythmic delivery. But due to this aspect of nearly all of the genre's progenitors, sampling has become a overly relied upon tradition if not a crutch. Really Kanye West? I don't think I can proudly listen to 21st Century Schizoid Man ever again. Jay-Z? Forever Young was one of the shittiest songs of the 80s that was already over-its-head indebted to Bach, what makes you think some prerecorded Casio hip-hop beat would turn it into a "hot track"? I know I'm veering back into complainy territory, but sampling in hip hop at that level of obviousness completely belittles any sense of artistic achievement. It's literally re-marketing something someone else has already created. You might take pride in your business sense, but the more art resembles business, the less art means (using the term art very generally here). Unless your sampling is utilized at a higher skill level (e.g. Paul's Boutique or Endtroducing...) or resembles a different kind of art form based off of music (like the sound collages of Christian Marclay or John Oswald), then you have no right calling yourself a musician, let alone an artist.
Uh... where was I? Umm... create something on your own. Be proud of it. If you can't make music, have someone else do it for you. Although that's the debatable purpose of sampling, as an author of music, it's riding someone else's coattails in a way significantly different from a pure collaboration. As if copyright were the prison keeping all songs in check, you're always going to find some who won't entirely mind a shower raping (or at least some who will be coaxed into it for enough cigarettes); it just doesn't mean you should be proud if the warden cracks a smile when he catches you.
Anyway, I'm not sure I completely finished my thought, but let me just briefly say I'd enjoy the music if not wholly original, to be presented in an original way. I don't mind so much if the only chords in your song are E, G, A, C, or D (major or minor) so long as I can't immediately tell that they are.
So my suggestions here should encapsulate most of what I was generally describing as being indicative of what I consider good music. They utilize different musical arrangements, moods aside from the dumbed down party atmosphere, gunfight in the street scenario, hey I have lots of drugs and money braggadocio of most rap (btw, if this is their first single, how the fuck did they already get all that money anyway?). They tell a focused story that has a point without reverting to those old tropes while still referencing them. While they don't all necessarily do all of these things all at the same time, those that don't can rest on what may be slightly more well-worn territory to support their particular artistic points of view and lend a character to their mini stories that might not have been achieved via a more aberrant path.
http://youtu.be/i789TMw49rE
http://youtu.be/1jf_8pHCqf4
http://youtu.be/JQOKys_pN2c
http://youtu.be/3mHa2ewDV6w
http://youtu.be/d0VQEfbMwb4
http://youtu.be/ZclcKd-8xTM
http://youtu.be/I58abO8orrg
http://youtu.be/1jf_8pHCqf4
http://youtu.be/JQOKys_pN2c
http://youtu.be/3mHa2ewDV6w
http://youtu.be/d0VQEfbMwb4
http://youtu.be/ZclcKd-8xTM
http://youtu.be/I58abO8orrg
not a fan if im honest, im more into all things metal and classical but also love chiptunes. i dont know i think i just dont like the singing styles, i like gangsters paradise by coolio though
I'm open-minded enough to appreciate any music, so it's just another genre to me.
Speaking of which, that new Party Rock Anthem is sweeet. Take a look :>
Speaking of which, that new Party Rock Anthem is sweeet. Take a look :>
I'm not personally a big fan of it, but there are a few artists that I enjoy listening to. Right now, my favorite is Aesop Rock.
I've also been getting into El-P lately.
Did I mention that I love Aesop Rock?
Anyways, for those who hate rap and hip-hop, you just gotta stay from the mainstream and go underground. But, if it's not to your liking, then that's ok. Although, that does not mean you can judge those who listen to it in a negative manner.
I've also been getting into El-P lately.
Did I mention that I love Aesop Rock?
Anyways, for those who hate rap and hip-hop, you just gotta stay from the mainstream and go underground. But, if it's not to your liking, then that's ok. Although, that does not mean you can judge those who listen to it in a negative manner.
