She could have had every right to send her son there if she had enrolled in the homeless shelter that she often stays at. If she was unwilling to do that, she should have sent her son to the public school where it was legal.Giest4life said:
Homeless woman prosecuted for enrolling son
- Thread starter Giest4life
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Oh that's cool. So a homeless person wants their child to go to school to try to have somewhat of a better future than her. But because she is homeless then that's too damn bad so he has be homeless as well. Wonderful logic. They really need to re-examine the law here and figure out some way to let kids like that in school even without like, an address.
What the hell? If I was a person in the school I would be applauding her for getting her son on the right track even if she wasn't there yet herself. This is what happens when Judges don't do there fucking jobs and make a actual decision but instead only rely on the letter of the law.
Well, she did defraud an official institution, so a criminal conviction is in order. Reasonably only with a minor sentence attached, but since the 20 years are only the maximum sentence which can be given for this type of crime in general, there's no saying that she won't get off with something akin to a slap on the wrist (probably a small fine).
As for the US school system being of mixed quality, and the social system very possibly being insufficient, those are separate issue which do not give anyone the right to get ahead using fraudulent measures.
As for the US school system being of mixed quality, and the social system very possibly being insufficient, those are separate issue which do not give anyone the right to get ahead using fraudulent measures.
I respect your concrete grasp of legality; however, you'll understand people who feel that breaking an unjust law is justifiable if you give Thoreau's Civil Disobedience a read.Imperator_DK said:
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As an educator and someone planning out having children, these two cases - that of Williams-Bolar and McDowell - disgust me. These women are trying to get their children into better schools, for their children to have a better life. That is a universal dream for all parents. They lack the financial means to live in a district where there is quality education. I grew up in a suburb esteems for its education, and any time there is a debate upon building low income housing the community viciously fights against it being built. In most cases, the building projects are beaten back and the town remains hostile towards Section 8 and such.
I found a good article [http://www.npr.org/2011/04/22/135627125/the-root-good-education-is-a-right-not-a-crime] about these cases. I'll quote the last line, with my own added emphasis: Stealing, as defined by Ohio and Connecticut, is in some ways not so much the easy way out as it is the only way out.
She committed fraud. Fraud is a crime. Just because she is homeless doesn't mean she should be excused for a crime. And it even says that she occasionally stayed at a homeless shelter but didn't register there, and if she had she could have gotten her son into that school anyway, so it is kind of her fault.Giest4life said:
Yeah, the school system clearly needs an overhaul, but that's not the point. You commit fraud, you get punished for committing fraud.
Edit - I do feel sorry for the woman, though. Obviously she was just trying to help her kid, and now this poor lads mum could go to jail for a lot of his life. Hopefully the judge is lenient.
There are some cold, cold people on this forum.
Also, there is a really heavy--one should never break the law--vibe here. But some of the United State's greatest and most important social changes came from people breaking the law.
Slaves, who were property, illegally escaping their slave owners and the Quakers who illegally helped them escape.
Rosa Parks who illegally refused to give her seat to a white man on a bus in Montgomery.
The African American students who illegally sat down at the white-only lunch counter.
The hundreds of Latino high school students who illegally left their east LA schools in order to protest the unbelievably crappy conditions.
The law is a conversation, and challenging it can sometimes get you to the Supreme Court where that law itself is overturned.
Also, there is a really heavy--one should never break the law--vibe here. But some of the United State's greatest and most important social changes came from people breaking the law.
Slaves, who were property, illegally escaping their slave owners and the Quakers who illegally helped them escape.
Rosa Parks who illegally refused to give her seat to a white man on a bus in Montgomery.
The African American students who illegally sat down at the white-only lunch counter.
The hundreds of Latino high school students who illegally left their east LA schools in order to protest the unbelievably crappy conditions.
The law is a conversation, and challenging it can sometimes get you to the Supreme Court where that law itself is overturned.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. Its 'free' because someone else pays for it, through taxes or charity. Abusing it makes you an ass.Revrant said:
Also, rich people don't pay 'considerably lower taxes', what a laughable statement, they pay a % of their income (In the uk anyway), which is typically 30-50%. In America, 'Fortune' estimated that the rich 1% of the country actually paid 70% of the tax income in 2010.
So, in reality, go fail somewhere else.
It shouldn't, it's a fairly reasonable thing.Giest4life said:
Your looking at this from the perspective of someone who doesn't live in the district in question. Schools are paid for by local taxes and donations. In areas where people invest a lot of time and money into their community and it's services, they get upset when people
from other areas start poaching when they neglected their own services.
Even with a school catering to kids that young, things like schlorships, and special programs can be involved. Some guy who runs a local business who wants to give back his community and donates say a scholorship to a school he was an alumni of (even an Elementary school), he's going to be rather POed if someone from outside the community winds up walking away with that money.
Remember a lot of schools wind up grooming kids from a very early age, things like Athletics can involve kids being groomed, and slowly accumulating grants and scholorships since kindergarden. It all depends on what people put into them.
On one hand it IS sympathetic that this lady wants a better life for her kid, on the other hand she *IS* poaching off of a more successful community.
Understand that examples also need to be made, because if you let one person get away with it, then everyone is going to. Next thing you know the school your community has been donating to, is going to be the dumping ground for all the poor folks around the area who want the benefits you paid for. You wind up with more students, a greater strain on the resources, and the quality that you were building up degrades. After all by their very nature the kids of homeless parents and such aren't exactly going to be able to put anything into the sytsem other than another child to be provided for.
It's not even entirely heartless, because when you get down to it, the community that is upset in cases like this, is ultimatly acting for the best interests of their kids.
... and understand also, this is one of the things that comes from having a competitive and capitalist society. In the US we're actually already pretty merciful and nice simply due to the fact that the five year old child of a homeless woman still is going to have a school to go to, even if it's not as nice as one supported by a more affluant community.
Does she deserve 20 years in prison for this? Well, that depends on a lot of the details and what kind of resources were being poached. It is a form of theft/scam, and the penelties involved are greatly influanced by the value of what the person was after. We don't know a lot of the details, whether this was a basic enrollment/attendance, or if the kid was being signed up for other programs that were funded at community expense when she was caught.
In the end I doubt she'll wind up serving 20 years if this goes through, but I think a substantial punishment is warrent because you need to make people considering similar things look at this case and decide they don't want to take the risks. You give her a slap on the wrist, and it will encourage other cases of fraud, because the people will figure "WTF, I'll get what I get, and it won't matter if I'm caught".
To many I doubtlessly seem like a jerk, but I can't help but look at this from the big picture. If I was from a community putting a lot of extra effort into our schools, and people from impoverished areas, or where they prioritized other things, wanted to start coming in to use them without any kind of contribution I'd be pretty POed too.
She's not in trouble for enrolling her school, she's in trouble for lying on federal documents, people. Yes the story is sad, but she should have at least told them up front. Maybe at least this story will call for a change in the system and she'll be given a slap on the wrist, but she still lied on United States federal documents.
Also, I love all the America-bashing that's going on here, or at least our schooling system. At least we admit we have the problems and try to fix it, unlike other countries that pretend they're perfect while quietly complaining in the corner about huge price increases and debt. When someone publicly admits they have a problem, then they can slowly begin change for the better rather than shuffling it under the rug when company arrives and hoping they don't notice.
Also, I love all the America-bashing that's going on here, or at least our schooling system. At least we admit we have the problems and try to fix it, unlike other countries that pretend they're perfect while quietly complaining in the corner about huge price increases and debt. When someone publicly admits they have a problem, then they can slowly begin change for the better rather than shuffling it under the rug when company arrives and hoping they don't notice.
This makes my blood boil. People seriously need to stop be so evil, this poor women could be going to jail because she wants her child to have a better life then she does? this is a joke. The united stated just keeps getting worse in my eyes...
As I understand it, the point of civil disobedience is publicly breaking a law one find ethically reprehensible, then accept the sanction for it, in order to call attention to one's cause.Fleischer said:
If she merely wanted to give her own kid a better future, I can understand that, even sympathize a fair bit. Given that she's accepted to enter into the social contract of US society though - which allows for public schools in the first place - and is thus bound by it to respect all legitimately and democratically passed laws, whether she agree to them or not, this doesn't get her off the hook either.
...Though I certainly can't understand why she didn't just sign up at the local homeless shelter in the area with the good school, rather than at a friend which anyone would have known to be a fraudulent act.
So I can certainly understand her motives, but explanations are not excuses.
Sensible response: Calmly explain to the woman that she can't enrol her son in the school without a valid, legal address. If possible, help her and her son out somehow.
Their response: Have her arrested, and fine her money she obviously doesn't have. And also have her altruistic friend evicted from her home.
Fucking brilliant.
Their response: Have her arrested, and fine her money she obviously doesn't have. And also have her altruistic friend evicted from her home.
Fucking brilliant.