Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture?
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It's my belief that humans, like all animals, are born with this subconscious need to survive long enough to mate and have offspring, a need that may not be written out of our genetics by evolution for a very long time.
I've been muddling over this for a while when it regards the homosexual community and it came to this: my original thinking was that not wanting to do it with the opposite sex was a mutation in our genes, since same gender + same gender = no kids, until I realized that there were gay couples in the world who do in-vitro fertilization to have kids (or at least adopt). Then it dawned on me: Maybe its NOT WANTING KIDS is the genetic mutation, not the want of porking another guy/gal.
Whether gayness is nature or nurture is still up to debate for me, but it's more likely that not wanting offspring at all (or perhaps being born sterile) is a genetic disorder in an individual's evolutionary code.
I've been muddling over this for a while when it regards the homosexual community and it came to this: my original thinking was that not wanting to do it with the opposite sex was a mutation in our genes, since same gender + same gender = no kids, until I realized that there were gay couples in the world who do in-vitro fertilization to have kids (or at least adopt). Then it dawned on me: Maybe its NOT WANTING KIDS is the genetic mutation, not the want of porking another guy/gal.
Whether gayness is nature or nurture is still up to debate for me, but it's more likely that not wanting offspring at all (or perhaps being born sterile) is a genetic disorder in an individual's evolutionary code.
That's not quite the case. Yes, much of our world view is influenced by factors from childhood, and many of the choices we make are determinate on those factors. However, sexuality is itself not a choice. Again, using food as an example, while your upbringing may have a strong influence on the type of food you eat most, your preference for foods will remain unchanged. A large factor of taste is determined by what your body deems it needs most. For example, Gatorade always tastes best when you are approaching dehydration. However, when well hydrated, Gatorade tastes something like cold sweat. Sexual preference is going to fall under the taste category.Varya said:
I just cannot help myself.
Someone has never seen Repo! The Genetic Opera! Have they.
wogi1000 said:
Someone has never seen Repo! The Genetic Opera! Have they.
To those who say if it is genetics then why have they not died out:
Genetics is never, and has never been, simply passing down of genes from two parents to a child but about hortatory traits going back multiple generations, many times so far back you don't even know it is in the blood line at all. If this was not the case, and your 'they would of breed themselves to death' argument was true, we would also have no blonds, no blue eyes and no genetic diseases, no mental illnesses and a huge number of other traits believed to be genetic that still are very common unless the trait is apparent in the parent as well.
This is not the case due to something known as regressive genes.
What really happens when you see these characteristics suddenly emerge is you have actually stumbled across a regressive gene pair. These genes have been passed on through generations, laying dormant and letting the other genes do all the work until suddenly it had the chance to take control. This occurs when it is suddenly paired with a regressive gene on conception, and is no longer being over-written by more dominating characteristics.
Lets move away from sexuality for a moment and focus on something we know is genetics just to prove this point:
Regressive genes are the reason why my mother is 'black,' yet the rest of us are all white. Because aboriginal genes runs through our blood, but are regressive in this case, there is the possibility of a 'throw back.' Personally, I hate that term but it works to describe what is happening. Throw backs occur when genetics align in such a way it brings forth characteristics not seen in the blood line for generations. Many of the modern genetic diseases are believed to be such throw backs, suddenly becoming apparent as we breed more and more outside of our 'traditional' blood lines but likely there in our genes for centuries.
Skin colour is more noticeable as it is multiple genes that control it, which is why we have so many shades and why I am using it as the example here. Because the stars where perfectly aligned when my mother was conceived she happened to throw back to this aboriginal tone even though both her parents are white. Because it is regressive on this one gene pair, and she mated with my father who was white, all her children are pale as ghosts without any showing of these traits. It was just random chance that brought forth this genetic 'throw back' to the point she could easily get aboriginal assistance from the government based on looks alone if she wanted to abuse that system.
So it doesn't matter if gay people have children or not, there will always be gay people born to straight parents, possibly due to genetics.
Damn it, I learned this crap in high school... why didn't you?!
(personally, I think focusing on genes when it comes to homosexuality is mis-leading and it is more likely a combination of external factors while still in the womb and genetics controlling how well we deal with those factors)
Caption: ietardi rim ... remember, never be tardi to rim!
Genetics is never, and has never been, simply passing down of genes from two parents to a child but about hortatory traits going back multiple generations, many times so far back you don't even know it is in the blood line at all. If this was not the case, and your 'they would of breed themselves to death' argument was true, we would also have no blonds, no blue eyes and no genetic diseases, no mental illnesses and a huge number of other traits believed to be genetic that still are very common unless the trait is apparent in the parent as well.
This is not the case due to something known as regressive genes.
What really happens when you see these characteristics suddenly emerge is you have actually stumbled across a regressive gene pair. These genes have been passed on through generations, laying dormant and letting the other genes do all the work until suddenly it had the chance to take control. This occurs when it is suddenly paired with a regressive gene on conception, and is no longer being over-written by more dominating characteristics.
Lets move away from sexuality for a moment and focus on something we know is genetics just to prove this point:
Regressive genes are the reason why my mother is 'black,' yet the rest of us are all white. Because aboriginal genes runs through our blood, but are regressive in this case, there is the possibility of a 'throw back.' Personally, I hate that term but it works to describe what is happening. Throw backs occur when genetics align in such a way it brings forth characteristics not seen in the blood line for generations. Many of the modern genetic diseases are believed to be such throw backs, suddenly becoming apparent as we breed more and more outside of our 'traditional' blood lines but likely there in our genes for centuries.
Skin colour is more noticeable as it is multiple genes that control it, which is why we have so many shades and why I am using it as the example here. Because the stars where perfectly aligned when my mother was conceived she happened to throw back to this aboriginal tone even though both her parents are white. Because it is regressive on this one gene pair, and she mated with my father who was white, all her children are pale as ghosts without any showing of these traits. It was just random chance that brought forth this genetic 'throw back' to the point she could easily get aboriginal assistance from the government based on looks alone if she wanted to abuse that system.
So it doesn't matter if gay people have children or not, there will always be gay people born to straight parents, possibly due to genetics.
Damn it, I learned this crap in high school... why didn't you?!
(personally, I think focusing on genes when it comes to homosexuality is mis-leading and it is more likely a combination of external factors while still in the womb and genetics controlling how well we deal with those factors)
Caption: ietardi rim ... remember, never be tardi to rim!
Saying just nature or just nurture is oversimplifying the issue. I think it is far more complex than that, and also depends on a case by case basis. for example, as any competent geneticist will tell you, the level of expression of a given gene depends on a great deal on environmental factors. For all we know the mother's diet while pregnant could effect the expression of said gene at key points in the development of the child's brain, which would greatly effect the orientation of the individual many years in the future. What would that be? Nature or Nurture? The genes were present, so that is a point for nature, but they were only expressed due to an environmental stimulus, so that is a point for nurture.
In addition, we have to take into account the actual orientation of the individual. The binary gay or strait question is inadequate in describing the range of sexual orientation, and adding bi in there barely scratches the surface. For example, is a gay person attracted to the same sex with feminine traits, masculine traits, or either? How much more do they prefer the same sex rather than the opposite? Do they find the prospect of heterosexual intercourse disgusting or just less desirable than homosexual intercourse? Is there attraction to the same sex highly sexual or less sexual? How are all these things related to inherent traits and environmental stimulus?
Furthermore, there has never really been much study into the possibility of choice in the matter of sexual orientation. Can some people change their orientation over time if they work hard enough at it? I know people who claim they chose to be gay. Others say they have no choice in the matter. It is probably true that both are telling the truth. How do we factor this into the equation?
In addition, we have to take into account the actual orientation of the individual. The binary gay or strait question is inadequate in describing the range of sexual orientation, and adding bi in there barely scratches the surface. For example, is a gay person attracted to the same sex with feminine traits, masculine traits, or either? How much more do they prefer the same sex rather than the opposite? Do they find the prospect of heterosexual intercourse disgusting or just less desirable than homosexual intercourse? Is there attraction to the same sex highly sexual or less sexual? How are all these things related to inherent traits and environmental stimulus?
Furthermore, there has never really been much study into the possibility of choice in the matter of sexual orientation. Can some people change their orientation over time if they work hard enough at it? I know people who claim they chose to be gay. Others say they have no choice in the matter. It is probably true that both are telling the truth. How do we factor this into the equation?
Also, not quite. Yes, instinctually people should desire children, otherwise a species wont survive. However, many same sex couples want children just as much as every other household. And it's not just a maternal instinct, just as many male same sex couples adopt as female same sex couples. The female couples are more likely to have children, only due to the option of actually carrying the child.Red Rum said:
Also, keep in mind that not all same sex couples have always been that way. Many same sex couples were in healthy relationships with members of the opposite sex, and have children as a result. There are so many cases like this that if you don't know a family that has been affected by this, then you know someone who does.
It's almost definitely nature. Think about it, with all the shit they get for it, and being unable to have kids (which I know some people wouldn't want to have anyway, but I'm guessing a majority of adults do), why would anyone in their right mind CHOOSE to be gay? Now that being said, I know being under extremely traumatic situations or settings in childhood can lead to some weird sexuality issues, but I think those are mostly psychological, and at best are only slightly connected to a person's actual sexuality.
Not saying sexuality is a choice, just that it might not purely be genetic. I don't think our choices affect a single thing in our life. Our choices are based on circumstances and genetics, so the choice is only acting on the most logical path available at the moment. However that's another debate.wogi1000 said:
What I mean is, as with our taste, certain events will change what we like forever. We might be born with preferences, but that doesn't mean it can't be affected. It's true for taste, fashion, and a lot of other things, why not sexuality?
Not saying sexuality is a choice, just that it might not purely be genetic. I don't think our choices affect a single thing in our life. Our choices are based on circumstances and genetics, so the choice is only acting on the most logical path available at the moment. However that's another debate.wogi1000 said:
What I mean is, as with our taste, certain events will change what we like forever. We might be born with preferences, but that doesn't mean it can't be affected. It's true for taste, fashion, and a lot of other things, why not sexuality?
Homosexuality is just a fad if you ask me. Its the cool or hip or fashionable thing to be or do right now so a lot of weak willed humans fallow it. Kinda of like with diet crazes.
Just like disco and Communism.
It will blow out in a another decade or so.
Just like disco and Communism.
It will blow out in a another decade or so.
I think it is time to pull this out:Mezmer said:
http://www.ranting-gryphon.com/Audio/Audio.htm
Go to the parents link and listen as it sums this post up so greatly.
Sorry to just jump in here, but I feel obligated to mention the view of homosexuality 50-150 years ago. In general people were aware of it, but it was condemned by the church on moral and spiritual grounds (meant alot more back then) and was usually deemed an offence by police. Meaning that you could be socially ruined (once again, meant alot more back then) AND damned to hell AND sent to juliet if you got caught in the arms of another of the same gender.Varya said:
In spite of this there was still a number of men (you never hear about this with women, don't know why) who actively participated in certain social clubs that forgave the indiscretions of its members. Based on the intense social stigma attached to homosexuality at the time, as well as the real legal ramifications of taking part in it, I honestly have a hard time believing that any amount of nurture would be involved in an individuals sexual preference.
I don't know.
What? Atleast I'm being honest. I have no clue, it could be either. I'm usually more on the nuture side of things, but with sexuality I can honestly say I have no idea. As a straight male who has a pretty average kind of life, I suppose I could say life would have been different if I'd have grown up in a gay bar. That's just a guess, though.
What? Atleast I'm being honest. I have no clue, it could be either. I'm usually more on the nuture side of things, but with sexuality I can honestly say I have no idea. As a straight male who has a pretty average kind of life, I suppose I could say life would have been different if I'd have grown up in a gay bar. That's just a guess, though.
I think you are confusing what I mean with "being nurtured" It's not necessarily positive things that shape our sexuality. It doesn't even have to have any thing to do with sex. An experience can subconsciously influence you and make you associate some things with emotions. This can later evolve in to sexual preferences.EvilRoy said:
Now I believe that homosexuality is mostly a genetic thing, but I believe it doesn't have to be, or isn't always. Sometimes an event can "trigger" a latent homosexuality, sometimes it can be totally artificially created, and sometimes it's pure genes. In the end, it's emotions, and they are real no matter how we acquired them
