Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture?

[Kais86]

Nature. I've seen people with straight brothers and sisters be gay/bisexual, same single children, ergo it's something their biology decided, which mans it's nature. You can make it nurture, but that will probably also lead to having a rather wrecked psychology.

 

[incal11]

I just have to double check that you know that. Now you haven't told me your sexuality yet but I do know some bisexuals have trouble understanding that concept, by no fault of their own.

There is maybe something I cannot understand from my position. I still get the impression that most here talk with their guts and not their mind. If I dare disagree with them somehow it must mean I have no experiences of my own, meh.

Now what you seem to be arguing is that everyone is bisexual and chooses who they sleep with based on social conditioning. The problem I have with this is that it doesn't seem consistent with what I know.

I know, not taking on this topic with a purely emotional approach feels alien to most people who never even considered it a possibility. I understand that using reason to analyse such a central part of everyone's feelings appear to be preposterous. If you can be stronger than your guts for an instant maybe you can understand.

Now being a homosexual I know quite a bit about them ~ you're explanation for homosexuality was something along the lines of homosexuals having some negative disposition towards sexual acts with females, and likewise for the reverse. And while I seem like I'm just going in circles here I'm still struggling to see how this fits in with the whole denial thing.

What denial ? That hetero or homosexuals denies that they weren't born that way ?
Maybe it's because of the emotional attachments one forms early in life, they are so strong and potentially central to one's personality that the person has trouble imagining him or herself in any other way. That could be it.
The negative disposition is not universal, and heterosexuals have it too toward others from their own gender. Anyway I was citing this only as a possible reason, maybe it's more of a positive disposition instead, toward the prefered gender.

Their are gays out there that go to "conversion camps" to turn straight and these have never seen success no matter what the determination. This leads me to believe that a persons sexuality is cemented pretty firmly into their psychology and such, unless I'm misunderstanding you make it seem like any gay person could just wake up one day and be attracted to vaginas.

Really, a conversion camp is the last place to go for that kind of thing. For most, what they feel they ough to be attracted to is strongly defined by social influence. If they go outside of that definition the result is denial and nausea. Giving those arbitray definitions the respect they deserve (none) is the best way to avoid depression.
As for just "waking up" and realise that I'm not attracted to just one gender, yes, that's my experience. I got a lot of flak for it, "you're lying to yourself", "you were always like that, you just didn't know it"; consider also arbitrary labels like "bicurious", "closeted" etc and even "bi", "gay" and "straight". Bring in Occam's razor and all this mess does not stand a chance against "you do whatever you like because that's how you are".
I considered the possibility that I was just born that way, and indeed that is a tempting conclusion. Still, I kept thinking about it and those articles resume my conclusions best:
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/index.html
perhaps this chapter is of special interest to you: http://www.mygenes.co.nz/PDFs/Ch12.pdf

Sorry if I'm making you repeat yourself at all but I'm just having trouble pulling bits together.

The conclusion of all this is that we are not born with one, and only one, sexual preference that never changes during life but with a potential to like what you like. In effect one is not born gay but with a potential to be gay, the rest depending on what happens after birth. Mind you, this potential could be increased by some factors before birth like an hormonal imbalance in the mother, but it remains just a potential.

 

[Varya]

This, I feel, I need to return to. "It's impossible for sexuality to be influenced by genetics"... I missed this before, and while we're on the subject of debunking old arguments.
This.. this is just wrong. Our genetics program us. We have instincts, they are in our genes. Psychology is very much a factor of genetics. We find some traits in females attractive because it's beneficial for us tho think so. Genetics determine our hormones, which very much affect our sexuality. I mean... I have argued with you on the basis that you knew that our genes are programmed to make us like to fuck. Are you seriously arguing that not only homosexuality is based on environment, but heterosexuality also? Because... no... it's in our genes, that's why we there's 7 billion of us...

what? again... are you just saying stupid stuff to taunt me or do you truely belive the lies you spout?

Instincts are learned. they are not hereditary artifacts of genetics...
If you believe instinct is genetic... then why are you not doing exactly what your great great grandfather did for a living?

you're just trying to troll now because you have no idea what you're talking about and only providing counter points with out adding anything to the discussion. You have yet to provide any real input and are just circle jerking around issues that you can't disprove.

just a simple question
if we are genetically ingrained to be sexual...
explain celibacy.

Ehhh... ok.. do you know what instincts are? It's actions we have not learned, yet know how to perform. I mean, this is basic shit, instincts are the friggin pillars of the theory of evolution. Humans have very few instincts, that's why we do not do what our grandfather did.
Instincts tells a cat to kick with it's legs after it has taken a shit. It does not learn to do this, otherwise domesticated cats would never learn how to do it. They do it because at random, some point in evolution, grandfather cat had a genetic mutation that made him twitch his leg or whatnot, after doing number 2. This made him more likely to survive, since now he was harder to track by other large animals that wanted to munch his tail. Grandfather cat's brother's and sister's were all eaten by dinosaurs, but he survived, and got to fuck, because the other girls thought he was the bee's knee's. Grandfather Cat's children all had the same mutation, so his line survived, until one offspring mutated a bit more, and actually kicked a bit more at the poop, and we begin again. That is the basics of the theory o evolution, it does not only apply to long legs, tail or other visual things, but also mutations in the brain, and that is what instincts are.
We however, started evolving our brain. The ones who could think beyond our instincts, who could look at the fire, which all our instincts had programmed us to fear and say "Ok, I know we are supposed to run and hide in that bush now, but I know I saw those big toothed cats over there, and if I do that, he will start eating me. If I stay here, I'll not only be warm, I'll be in a place where the cats fear to come." See the logic here?
So int eh case of celibacy, a human can think something like this: "You know what, ever since I got hair in funny places, I've been enjoying to stick my pipeline between those round, firm, yet squeezable things above the women's legs. It's almost like I've been programmed from birth to like it. But now, all the humpin I've been doing has put me in a predicament, and I have to hide in the bushes quite a bit to close to the big toothed cats, not to get clubbed by that girls father, or that girls father, for that matter... oh... hand her.. ad then there was that... you know what, this humpin have been fun and all, but if this is where it leads me, I think I'll stop. However, grumpy as I am now, I'll start saying to people that it's a great thing that get's me closer to the great man in the sky, and that doing it will be frowned upon. If I'm gonna do this, I wan't every sucker I can find to suffer with me"
Sometimes, a human is born asexual, without the want for sex. This however, is seldom a trait that survives, since while he might live a happy, not at all hiding from angry parents kind of life, he's not very likely to have kids, so his mutation will die out in only a generation.
I mean, it's instincts... why do you think that animals that live all across the world still have patterns that they follow, independent of each other? Why does a cat separated from it's mother at birth still acts like a cat? It's in the genes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct
Here you go, don't be confused by the fact that thy don't use the word "genes", when they say it's with us from birth, they mean genes.

I'm sorry, I don't wan't to sound condescending but well... I've had a debate with you with the impression that you knew anything... and this is very basic. (And I can't help but write with humor, it's not meant as mean, I just think a funny narrative helps the learning process)

 

[y1fella]

I think it's nurture because for it to be nature there would need to be some kind of genetic disposition towards homosexuality, that which for obvious reasons, wouldn't have been able to survive up until about 20 years ago.
Does that make sense?
Also I don't know what causes homosexuality on the nurture side of things but history has roven that children are naturally inclined to disappoint there parents so, I guess the whole christian nuclear family thing could just be that in effect.

 

[incal11]

why do you think that animals that live all across the world still have patterns that they follow, independent of each other? Why does a cat separated from it's mother at birth still acts like a cat? It's in the genes

True but it's not enough to prove "gayness" is a genetic trait, you should read my last post just above yours.

 

[Varya]

just a simple question
if we are genetically ingrained to be sexual...
explain celibacy.

Celibacy is a forced behavior of unhealthy repression. It is to deny natural urges coded into our subconscious; the sexual urge exists to stop the human race from dying out. Even if you lived in a world where no one talked about sex or even acknowledged its existence (and there was such a time when that was the societal norm) you would still, on some level, be aware of sex and still crave the experience.
Now, answer me this simple question:
If sexual behavior, and therefore sexual orientation, is strictly a learned behavior (and I reinforce that it don't believe that's true) explain how children raised by straight parents and siblings grow up to be homosexual.

Man, I hate to do this, because you are fighting my battle, but your argument does not hold up (your last one, the celibacy one was fine).
Just because we are raised in one way, doesn't mean that's what'll affect your preferences. Teens often revolt against their parents and while some of it goes away, some things stick. At some point, your hormones tells you it's time to say "*** **** **** and****, with the**** and a *** to you!!"(teens, right?) to your parent's and do all the things you were told not to. And sometimes this urge is so strong it changes who you actually are. You might have begun with it as a revolt, but it becomes a part of your persona. Sexuality doesn't have to be affected by something even related to sex however. Sometimes an experience, traumatic or perhaps just significant to your subconscious, rewires you in a way that can affect your sexual preferences. It's been proven to be the case with some fetishes, it's not impossible it could be true for some gays as well. Now, I'm not saying he was right(he's not, in my opinion, which I've tried to make clear), just that you're argument is easily debunked.

 

[Vault101]

I think the whole "born this way" thing is bull.

Well even if it is I dont think being gay is a "consious" choice, its more or less due to things beyond the persons controll, be that upbringing or genes

I mean its not like people choose to be gay just to piss off conservatives, Im sure many people struggle with it and are only happy when they accept it

to me the word "choice" implays you could go eather option but choose to go one

 

[Varya]

why do you think that animals that live all across the world still have patterns that they follow, independent of each other? Why does a cat separated from it's mother at birth still acts like a cat? It's in the genes

True but it's not enough to prove "gayness" is a genetic trait, you should read my last post just above yours.

Quite right, I'm not sure what gayness is, I think it's quite possible it's different for everyone. He, however, argued that instincts were not genetic.
I quote:
"what? again... are you just saying stupid stuff to taunt me or do you truely belive the lies you spout?

Instincts are learned. they are not hereditary artifacts of genetics...
If you believe instinct is genetic... then why are you not doing exactly what your great great grandfather did for a living?"


I read your post, however, and from what I can gather you have a few points. I don't believe we are born bisexual however, but most of us are born straight*. Our sexual preferences can very much change, but we are at a genetic level programmed to be drawn to the opposite sex. Some, are born with a disposition, I think, towards being gay or bi, and it's nothing more that a slight shift in our perception of the world.
"I like to bang chicks" is not to far from
"I like to bang humans" which is in itself only a step from
"I like to bang dudes"

*Being born straight, isn't the same however as being not bisexual. What I mean is that unless something happens to that person to shift his or her preferences, once instincts will simply tell you to mate with the opposite sex, and unless it's actually questioned, you'll happily live your life that way. But factors could change your views, our sex-drive is stronger than our heterosexuality, so if one, for example finds oneself in a situation where there are no mates, or experience a situation that changes your disposition towards one sex (rape, for example), you might change your sexuality.

 

[Lazy Kitty]

It's a choice, just like everything else you do in life.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Because they adopt?

Ok, let me rephrase again: "How come the other family members give birth to more children than the average family without homosexuals in it, despite having non-reproducing members?".
Basicly having a (or several) homosexuals in the family provides with an evolutionary advantage in that that family will give an over-representative birth rate.

It's a choice, just like everything else you do in life.

Only the having sex part, not the being attracted to part.

 

[Dexiro]

I just have to double check that you know that. Now you haven't told me your sexuality yet but I do know some bisexuals have trouble understanding that concept, by no fault of their own.

There is maybe something I cannot understand from my position. I still get the impression that most here talk with their guts and not their mind. If I dare disagree with them somehow it must mean I have no experiences of my own, meh.

Now what you seem to be arguing is that everyone is bisexual and chooses who they sleep with based on social conditioning. The problem I have with this is that it doesn't seem consistent with what I know.

I know, not taking on this topic with a purely emotional approach feels alien to most people who never even considered it a possibility. I understand that using reason to analyse such a central part of everyone's feelings appear to be preposterous. If you can be stronger than your guts for an instant maybe you can understand.

Now being a homosexual I know quite a bit about them ~ you're explanation for homosexuality was something along the lines of homosexuals having some negative disposition towards sexual acts with females, and likewise for the reverse. And while I seem like I'm just going in circles here I'm still struggling to see how this fits in with the whole denial thing.

What denial ? That hetero or homosexuals denies that they weren't born that way ?
Maybe it's because of the emotional attachments one forms early in life, they are so strong and potentially central to one's personality that the person has trouble imagining him or herself in any other way. That could be it.
The negative disposition is not universal, and heterosexuals have it too toward others from their own gender. Anyway I was citing this only as a possible reason, maybe it's more of a positive disposition instead, toward the prefered gender.

Their are gays out there that go to "conversion camps" to turn straight and these have never seen success no matter what the determination. This leads me to believe that a persons sexuality is cemented pretty firmly into their psychology and such, unless I'm misunderstanding you make it seem like any gay person could just wake up one day and be attracted to vaginas.

Really, a conversion camp is the last place to go for that kind of thing. For most, what they feel they ough to be attracted to is strongly defined by social influence. If they go outside of that definition the result is denial and nausea. Giving those arbitray definitions the respect they deserve (none) is the best way to avoid depression.
As for just "waking up" and realise that I'm not attracted to just one gender, yes, that's my experience. I got a lot of flak for it, "you're lying to yourself", "you were always like that, you just didn't know it"; consider also arbitrary labels like "bicurious", "closeted" etc and even "bi", "gay" and "straight". Bring in Occam's razor and all this mess does not stand a chance against "you do whatever you like because that's how you are".
I considered the possibility that I was just born that way, and indeed that is a tempting conclusion. Still, I kept thinking about it and those articles resume my conclusions best:
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/index.html
perhaps this chapter is of special interest to you: http://www.mygenes.co.nz/PDFs/Ch12.pdf

Sorry if I'm making you repeat yourself at all but I'm just having trouble pulling bits together.

The conclusion of all this is that we are not born with one, and only one, sexual preference that never changes during life but with a potential to like what you like. In effect one is not born gay but with a potential to be gay, the rest depending on what happens after birth. Mind you, this potential could be increased by some factors before birth like an hormonal imbalance in the mother, but it remains just a potential.

I'm sorry but I'm still not convinced you've understood. You're a "pansexual" I'm led to believe - a group of people that, understandably, have trouble with the concept of someone being attracted to only one gender.

Now again I will speak of denial. The denial is of that persons own sexuality. People dedicate their lives to denying their sexuality, living lives as straight men and doing everything they can to push the homosexual attraction to the side. Some wish with all their hearts that they could change their sexuality no matter how much their family or friends hate them or show support. And then you come along and say "they could change their sexuality easily by waking up" or something, well people have been working on waking up for a while now and It aint working for them.

Now I have no trouble with you having trouble understanding this concept, but you seem to be full on projecting your own flexible sexuality onto the general population who's sexualities are more rigid.

I'm glad for your concern but I'm not particularly an emotional arguer, I'm not one to shut off an idea just because I'm not happy with it ~ I actually quite like your idea, and I'd love to say "damn you're right" but the core of your argument just doesn't add up.

Theoretically according to you I could turn start getting a boner over women overnight, which I think would be a blast, but despite efforts by the majority simply wanting this change doesn't seem to be enough to flick the switch.
I happily invite you to tell me and the general populace how to do this if such a thing is to be possible, because I believe sexuality to be a little more rigid for most people than you're making out.

 

[Hagi]

I give you epigenetics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

The wondrous combination of both Nature and Nurture! Packaged in one single convenient package that, unlike it's parts, can answer a lot more questions!

Your genes aren't static. As you grow up they change and influence your body to dynamically adapt to the situation you're living in. It starts in the womb where your body registers the nutrients it receives through the umbilical cord and adapts to that by switching certain genes on and off. And it just keeps on going.

In the end your Nature influences your Nurture which influences your Nature which influences your Nurture which influences your Nature which influences your Nurture which influences your Nature which influences your Nurture which influences your Nature which influences your Nurture which influences your Nature which influences your Nurture etc.

So the answer: Both.

 

[infohippie]

It's been established that sexual orientation is primarily genetic in origin. Environmental factors have a great influence on fetishes and other particular preferences, but broad orientation is definitely determined by nature.

 

[ContinuumDude]

I call Richard Dawkins on this

 

[Vault101]

It's a choice, just like everything else you do in life.

weather or not its nature or nuture if people one day say to themselfs "hey, I think I'll be gay!" then it doesnt explain all the people who struggle and try to repress it to the detriment of their own happyness and well being

what ever it is I dont think its a "concious" choice

it seems your implying its somthing you can switch on and off

 

[hiks89]

haha all these posts say exactly the same thing

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

Nature, you can't be forced to be gay if the straight, the same way lots of gay people are forced to be straight. You either are, or your not (or bi-sexual but lets not get into all that)

I'm bi :>

Yeah, I'm going with nature on this one. Nurture might have an influence, but from my experience and sources it looks pretty nature.

I'm curious what your "sources" are. Scientifically, this is a completely open question with very, very little evidence on either side. In fact, no one even knows how to start answering the question. Hell, scientists aren't even really clear on what the question is really asking in the first place.

This thread makes me seriously sad about the state of public knowledge about these things. Everyone is just spitting out the most acceptable answer given their social beliefs. Imagine if Democrats insisted that P=NP and Republicans all insisted that P!=NP (there's probably a bad political joke to be made here...). It's absolutely ridiculous. Arguing from "experience" only makes it more completely absurd. Do you have some tremendous gift allowing you to sense your genetic structure?

And the worst part is that the people who do argue that it's nature are the people trying to be progressive. Arguing about this is very nearly the least progressive stance you could take. Your argument is akin to insisting that people should tolerate other races because, while black people might be inferior, they can't help it.

 

[hiks89]

does this guy realy think being sexual isnt in our genes? did he go to any form of school whatsoever?...what happened to the quote thing?...i was quoting some one else btw

 

[hiks89]

I think the whole "born this way" thing is bull.

Well even if it is I dont think being gay is a "consious" choice, its more or less due to things beyond the persons controll, be that upbringing or genes

I mean its not like people choose to be gay just to piss off conservatives, Im sure many people struggle with it and are only happy when they accept it

to me the word "choice" implays you could go eather option but choose to go one

code-D did you chose to like titties?, guy above i agree with you

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

It's been established that sexual orientation is primarily genetic in origin. Environmental factors have a great influence on fetishes and other particular preferences, but broad orientation is definitely determined by nature.

You've been mislead. There is absolutely no scientific consensus about this.

I call Richard Dawkins on this

Beautiful find! Every person in this thread should watch the last two minutes of this.