Honour in War

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TheRealCJ

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curlycrouton said:
TheFacelessOne said:
The Christmas Truce...when I saw it on the History Channel, I thought it was the most touching thing that has ever happened in war. Despite being enemies, they both managed to celebrate Christmas, together.
And then had three more where they killed each other.

Such is life.

Although I admit it's very touching, it's a shame they didn't continue the tradition. Hell, it's a shame they didn't just refuse to fight.
Unfortunatly, the 1914 truce was a spontaeous decision by both sides' combatants at more-or-less the same time. Both sides' commanders highly dissaproved of the move.

It happened again in 1915 to a lesser extent, but after that, the high-command negated any possibility of it by ordering long-range artillery bombardments throughout the christmas period.
 

Pimppeter2

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Terrorist groups are not countries. We're not fighting IRAQ or AFGHANISTAN, we're fighting the Taliban and such. These groups are not humane.
 

AmrasCalmacil

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curlycrouton said:
TheFacelessOne said:
The Christmas Truce...when I saw it on the History Channel, I thought it was the most touching thing that has ever happened in war. Despite being enemies, they both managed to celebrate Christmas, together.
And then had three more where they killed each other.

Such is life.

Although I admit it's very touching, it's a shame they didn't continue the tradition. Hell, it's a shame they didn't just refuse to fight.
Rather shot by the enemy than by their own officers, I suppose.

This read causes Erwin Rommel to spring to mind but I can't think why.
Aside from the obvious.
 

caz105

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TheRealCJ said:
I've been reading on the histories of the great wars (history, blegh, but it's actually quite interesting). As I've read from the wars of the late British Empire all the way through to modern combats, and I've noticed that there seems to be a decrease in, well, humanity with each subsequent conflict. It could be that I'm just reading the wrong books, but I'd love to hear what you think.
During the Crusades the Crusaders committed rape, murder, cannibalism and there are rumours that babies were eaten.

/thread
 

Steelfists

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The Infamous Scamola said:
TheRealCJ said:
The Infamous Scamola said:
Oh, Charlie were dirty communist with no sense or right or justice? I suggest you read up on the atrocties committed by American G.I.s too before making such one-sided comments.
You misunderstand me, that's the impression I receive from the current annals I'm reading regarding the history of that particular war. Unfortunately, I'd assume that most of the english-language books regarding that particular conflict are all from the viewpoint of the US/allied countries.

I'm a strong believe in 'two sides to every story'.
Oh, that really isn't that clear from what you posted. Either that, or I'm starting to become stupid.
Yes, now you can run for the European Parliament! EDIT Just remembered that you are Italian, you probably need long legs and large boobs too.

To the OP: The GIs of Vietnam were ordinary working class people, conscripted for 6 months and sent to some strange shithole where everyone and anyone could be an enemy. The professional soldiers were by the middle of the war in special forces units and could fuck up anything and anyone they wanted.
 

chris89

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Depends in which theatre really. A lot of times in WW1 tempeary truce's were held by the English and the Germans and Dok Zombie i've heard that account as well.

Also in WW2 a lot of Luftwaffer pilots escorted wounded RAF and USAAF planes back to the channel before turning back to base as they couldn't see the point/ wasting life on attacking heavely damaged B17's, B24s, Lancasters and the Kreigmarine (U-boats) helped the surivers by radioing the Royal navy a number off times to pick them up, but then did lead to a terrible lose off life when an American B24 attacked U-boats towing surivers to a meeting with RN and French Ships. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident But please ignore the general all Germans were Nazi's most off them fought for their country and hated to kill fellow Christians
 

eatenbyagrue

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Honorable? Nowadays, we don't shoot soldiers and insurgents who surrender anymore.

Now, we don't force civilians into slave labor for an occupying army.


It's not honorable in the "good show, old chap" sense, but war isn't just a game played between barbarians. Rules of engagement and Geneva Convention and stuff.
 

Amnestic

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Aug 22, 2008
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pimppeter2 said:
Terrorist groups are not countries. We're not fighting IRAQ or AFGHANISTAN, we're fighting the Taliban and such. These groups are not humane.
Uh, wasn't the invasion of Iraq to stop Saddam Hussein (supposedly) who was the current 'sovereign' leader of Iraq and thus attacking him was attacking his country? Pretty damn sure that even if he did use Terrorist/Guerilla tactics, the US (and allies) were attacking the country of Iraq.

As for Afganistan, the Taliban was the established government in 2001 when America attacked. Again, established government=attacking the country.

And on the topic of the greater 'Honour in War'...well, did the Romans have honour when they subjugated their conquests into slavery? Really? What you bring up are scant few cases throughout history and we may see such things again in the future, but to say the war used to be honourable and now it's not is...well, wrong I think. Atrocities have been committed throughout history like it or not.

[Insert Ron Perlman quote here]
 

Pimppeter2

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Amnestic said:
pimppeter2 said:
Terrorist groups are not countries. We're not fighting IRAQ or AFGHANISTAN, we're fighting the Taliban and such. These groups are not humane.
Uh, wasn't the invasion of Iraq to stop Saddam Hussein (supposedly) who was the current 'sovereign' leader of Iraq and thus attacking him was attacking his country? Pretty damn sure that even if he did use Terrorist/Guerilla tactics, the US (and allies) were attacking the country of Iraq.

As for Afganistan, the Taliban was the established government in 2001 when America attacked. Again, established government=attacking the country.
These are governments set up by overthrows, coups, and military force. The main route (supposed) is to get groups like the Taliban and al Qaeda out of these countries so they can grow. We're not going to war with Iraq, we're at war IN Iraq.

Should a government created by military force be allowed to wipe out people it doesn't like? Is that really a government?
 

Sulu

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This is just something off the top of my head, after the battle of Rorkes Drift against the Zulu the British soldiers clubbed and shot all the wounded and alive zulus. By those standards todays warfare is very very humane!
 

Amnestic

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pimppeter2 said:
Amnestic said:
pimppeter2 said:
Terrorist groups are not countries. We're not fighting IRAQ or AFGHANISTAN, we're fighting the Taliban and such. These groups are not humane.
Uh, wasn't the invasion of Iraq to stop Saddam Hussein (supposedly) who was the current 'sovereign' leader of Iraq and thus attacking him was attacking his country? Pretty damn sure that even if he did use Terrorist/Guerilla tactics, the US (and allies) were attacking the country of Iraq.

As for Afganistan, the Taliban was the established government in 2001 when America attacked. Again, established government=attacking the country.
These are governments set up by overthrows, coups, and military force. The main route (supposed) is to get groups like the Taliban and al Qaeda out of these countries so they can grow. We're not going to war with Iraq, we're at war IN Iraq.
Hang on. You mean exactly how the United States declared an overthrow of the British Government when they established their independence? Furthermore, the US used to support the Taliban in its dealings until they apparently decided that they couldn't use them anymore. Well, that and a terrorist group attacked the US.

No, you went to war with Iraq. Saddam Hussein was the leader of the country. Whether he was a fascist dictator or not or whether he should have been deposed or not is irrelevant. You want to war with the country of Iraq. That's why it was an invasion.
 

ilion

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there is no honour today because most armies are professional, therefore they are no better than mercenaries.
 

Pimppeter2

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Amnestic said:
pimppeter2 said:
Amnestic said:
pimppeter2 said:
Terrorist groups are not countries. We're not fighting IRAQ or AFGHANISTAN, we're fighting the Taliban and such. These groups are not humane.
Uh, wasn't the invasion of Iraq to stop Saddam Hussein (supposedly) who was the current 'sovereign' leader of Iraq and thus attacking him was attacking his country? Pretty damn sure that even if he did use Terrorist/Guerilla tactics, the US (and allies) were attacking the country of Iraq.

As for Afganistan, the Taliban was the established government in 2001 when America attacked. Again, established government=attacking the country.
These are governments set up by overthrows, coups, and military force. The main route (supposed) is to get groups like the Taliban and al Qaeda out of these countries so they can grow. We're not going to war with Iraq, we're at war IN Iraq.
Hang on. You mean exactly how the United States declared an overthrow of the British Government when they established their independence? Furthermore, the US used to support the Taliban in its dealings until they apparently decided that they couldn't use them anymore. Well, that and a terrorist group attacked the US.

No, you went to war with Iraq. Saddam Hussein was the leader of the country. Whether he was a fascist dictator or not or whether he should have been deposed or not is irrelevant. You want to war with the country of Iraq. That's why it was an invasion.
Relax. We're not going into the real reason Us went to war argument, because I do agree with you. I'm saying the supposed cause. Which is why is said (supposed) in the first place. Its a war on Terrorism (again supposedly) terrorism includes countries like Iraq who try to persuade others to do their bidding based on terror. If we were to go to war with NoKo because they threaten us with WMDs, it would be a war on terrorism not a war on NoKo(kind of). Regardless if Iraq and Hussein have WMD(I'm not saying they do). The (again supposed) reason we are there is to route out terrorism in their land and government. So even though we are fighting in Iraq, we're fighting against terrorists, not soilders.


Look at these two men. They do not wear the same uniform, this is not an army we are fighting. We are at war IN Iraq and Afghan, not against them.

If we we're at war with a country, they would have to fallow the Geneva Conventions, they wouldn't be decapitating soldiers and videotaping it to scare us
 

A.A.K

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pimppeter2 said:
If we we're at war with a country, they would have to fallow the Geneva Conventions, they would be decapitating soldiers and videotaping it to scare us
They ARE decapitating soldiers and videotaping it. They're also doing much worse over their.

and i agree with pimppeter2, our 'combatantants' are never 'humane'. Dont you believe the news? :p
it explains why we dont treat them with the respect we did in say WWI & II.

Havent you all noticed that the side YOU are on, always seems to be fighting for a greater cause? So, both sides are fighting a greater cause. Now we dont particular care about the other person, we just want our cause met and we want the other ones to be unsuccessful.
 

Pimppeter2

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BlakBladz said:
pimppeter2 said:
If we we're at war with a country, they would have to fallow the Geneva Conventions, they would be decapitating soldiers and videotaping it to scare us
They ARE decapitating soldiers and videotaping it. They're also doing much worse over their
Woops, I ment wouldn't.


As for American soldiers being cruel to the people there. Thats a load of fucking bullshit.

These are Taliban soliders



These are civilians


If you took the weapon away, pulled down the mask, can you tell a fucking difference?

This is war, sometimes civilians get killed. Shit happens. It not like how the media curses American soilders for brutality.

I'm not saying we should kill everyone that we think might be Taliban. But honestly, when you invade a town protecting a Taliban leader, it hard to think that that unarmed guy who is shouting "Fuck the Americans" Or "The Americans are here!" is actually not working for the Taliban
 

HarmanSmith

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There is no honor in war, you're still fucking killing people. Besides, if you study ancient wars and civilizations you would see how tame our methods are in comparison to our ancestors
 

gh0ti

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I think it's pretty hard to maintain the view that WW1 and previous wars were any more 'honourable' than later ones based on one or two moments of truce occuring. In modern wars, military concerns are often overridden in order to protect civilians - whereas civilians were often deliberately targetted in earlier ones.

Vietnam was perhaps a particularly brutal war, but I see it as another exception than part of a sustained pattern. The disparity of technology and resources between the two sides meant that one had to fight a guerilla war, which leaves very little room for either combatants to be 'honourable' in their methods. Both essentially relied upon ambush for the majority of the war, using claymores and the like. The Viet Minh then used human shields by melting back into the general populace, and the US burning down forests with Napalm and carpet bombing surrounding countries to try and break the VC supply lines.

If you go back to the medieval era, just about every war was fought similar to Vietnam. Knights would ride out from their castles, burn enemy lands and then ride back for shelter. True, if a knight was captured, he could expect to be treated well and ransomed, but the common soldier had no such priveleges.

In short, there is no real 'honour' in warfare - if you read soldier's accounts of WW1, you'll soon realise how they felt about it, many of them explicitly denying any humanity in the conflict. What people don't realise is that it doesn't take technology to remove someone's human compassion once a war gets underway.

EDIT: Sorry for the s*** grammar, just woken up...